By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-22 15:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Dark Ether
I have a character or three that are akin to Mr. Immortal. Die....rezz...die...hospital...
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| While I may or may not disagree with the rest of your post, I'm curious as to what elements of a Mary Sue Recluse displays. |
Venture beat me to the Baron Strucker comment, so I agree with that.
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cursedsorcerer defaults to the muties: The Vindicators are likely the X-Men (although they aren't all mutants) |
Different folks may be using different definitions of Mary Sue, or at least empasizing differnt aspects. I think IantheM1 is asking how he's a Mary Sue in the sense of "thinly veiled avatar of the author", while others are using the "practically perfect ion every way, point the solution out to the main characters, Wesley Crusher is the son I wish you were" aspect.
To me personally, you need both halves of that to be a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Plenty of examples of either half alone that aren't Mary Sues.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
While I may or may not disagree with the rest of your post, I'm curious as to what elements of a Mary Sue Recluse displays.
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I don't think you can say they're really analogues for anyone. They share characteristics, but their personalities are different.
Sister Psyche is more like a cross between Wonder Woman and Saturn Girl than Jean Grey to me. She's got the storied history of being a longtime major hero but with telepathy more in line with what Saturn Girl than what Jean Grey displayed. (Jean was more about telekinesis imo.)
Synapse is a speedster like Quicksilver and the Flash, but his personality is more like Johnny Storm's. Ladies' man, enjoying the fame ...
Positron wears armor, but that's really all he shares with Iron Man. He's more like Reed Richards: a scientist rather than an engineer.
Statesman's role in COX is like Superman or Captain America's, but his career is longer than either, and his personality is more world-weary than either of them ... and his origin is more like Captain Marvel's.
Recluse fills the role of "Best Friend Turned Bitter Enemy" like Lex Luthor or Magneto, but he is nothing like either of them. For a mastermind who's the ruler of his own country, his whole modus operandi appears to be "hit it until it stops moving."
Which is a shame, really. He could be a lot more interesting than he actually is.
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Everybody is supposed to SO want to impress him and do his bidding for no reason.
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I prefer to look at characters based on their own merit. This is a game where people can make their own heroes and obvious clones and copies of established characters are swiftly "genericked." It would only stand to reason that the developers would avoid making obvious clones and copies themselves.
Thus-far, the only characters they've got that can be considered "based-on" anything are characters that are designed as homages and spoofs. They have enough different about them, however, so as to be their own characters (Doc Delilah, anybody?).
Sure, there are going to be similarities. Each Comic Book World has its own version(s) of Superman. Each Comic Book World has its own version(s) of Captain America. Each Comic Book World has its own version(s) of whatever. For the most part, the similarities are solely in the powers. How many of us created comic book character ideas where the hero could fly, lift buildings over his head or shoot lasers from his eyes? It's when their background stories are obvious copies that you need to be concerned.
If the only thing you're looking for in your heroes is their ability to lift-and-hurl buses or project their thoughts into other people's minds, then you're missing 90% of the story.
True enough. They're not really direct analogues. They pretty much make the characters the same way I do. Sure, there are archetypal influences, sometimes more than one, but they're not copies. Similar to what Kurt Busiek does in Astro City. Neither my Decorum or Statesman (or Samaritan, for that matter) are rip-offs of Superman, but they both have many a nod/homage in that direction of his archetype. Synapse has the super-speed archetype covered, although there's really nothing to suggest a rip-off of Flash, Quicksilver or any other specific speedster.
Blue-side: DC - the fun, colorful heroes.
Red-side: Marvel - the faceless dark monolith of evil with a spider-theme. CoV seemed to be a joke at Marvel's expense to get back at them for the lawsuit.
I just came to say that all the people bashing Recluse have obviously never played CoV, done an LRSF/STF or even set foot into RV.
| I just came to say that all the people bashing Recluse have obviously never played CoV, done an LRSF/STF or even set foot into RV. |
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Everybody is supposed to SO want to impress him and do his bidding for no reason.
That's kind of the ultimate sue criteria: world unbelievably revolving around them. |
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
It would be an undeserved compliment to call Recluse formulaic, because he isn't even as interesting as the most cliche villain. He's a spider-fetishist Mary Sue with no particular ideology other than GOTTA GET STATESMAN.
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
He can't make any sort of consistent choice between anarchist or fascist
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
and has 0 fashion sense, style, or charisma.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Recluse is an Anti Sue: he is simultaneously a total doofus who couldn't intrigue his way out of a paper bag and loses all the time and the point around which the entire redside world revolves.
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Originally Posted by Venture
He is not even close to being an analog of Doom. At best he's an analog of Baron Strucker. Cobra Commander -- the cartoon version -- is an even better fit.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
Recluse fills the role of "Best Friend Turned Bitter Enemy" like Lex Luthor or Magneto, but he is nothing like either of them. For a mastermind who's the ruler of his own country, his whole modus operandi appears to be "hit it until it stops moving."
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Well gee, how about "Gather the world's mosty ruthless criminals in a place aptly named Darwin's Landing, weed out the weak ones and recruit the bad@55 into certain Project: DESTINY (which in turn was concieved by gathering a group of psyhics/seers known as "Fortunatas" to figure out how he can make the future in which he wins, come true), to aid him in the defeat of his archnemesis and eventual world domination. The only thing that prevents him from doing this is are his angsty lieutenats and the player character (along with 7 more allies usually).
It is suggested that they are merely a bump in the road though, since we see the current Arachnos Patrons getting replaced by Mu Drakhan, Shadow Spider, Viridian and Regent Korol. That seems pretty elaborate to me. |
| I missed the part where Cobra Commander succeeds in his plans and manages to keep his lackeys loyal to him. |
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Everybody is supposed to SO want to impress him and do his bidding for no reason.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
You're neglecting the fact that if Recluse's future comes to past he winds up being slain by the future version of the player who's doing the arc. True, the player character dies too-- in fact, the entire world is destroyed-- but if Recluse gets what he wants from Project Destiny he winds up destroying himself and the world.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
We travel into the future to defeat Recluse after his victory over the Freedom Phalanx to get him to abandon his plans.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
If we had done nothing to alter the timeline, then Recluse's plan would have STILL failed because he would have been dead along with the rest of the world.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
Then in the Statesman TF his plan is to make himself the most powerful metahuman in the world ... and Ultra Powerful Recluse uses the power to enrich his physical abilities ... he becomes, tougher, stronger, harder to defeat.
And then his strategy is "pummel his enemies into paste." |
I've done the final Patron Arc twice on two different characters. Going from memory, as I recall it, your journey into the future finds that you perish in the final battle with Recluse:
From Paragonwiki: (Ghost Widow's Arc)
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You found this hand-carved plaque on a pile of rubble in the strange future Arachnos sent you to. It reads: 'This marks the spot on which the final battle occurred. After the Arachnos war, the second Rikti war, the Council War, the Nemesis War, the Rikti Civil War, and the final Arachnos War, here did the Destined One and Lord Recluse fight their final battle. With their death, the wars ended, but the world had already passed away. All that is left to this world is chaos and we, the isolated scraps of humanity. We have no home, no community, no pleasure, and no peace. As for hope, it exists only in memory.' The date on the plaque is for 15 years from when you left. And buried beneath the rubble below the plaque, you can see the wrecked form of one of Lord Recluse's armored spider-arms, still clutched in the grasp of your own skeletal hand. |
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Eukrisal spun a terrible tale of the end of the world: 'Scirocco told me you'd arrive around now. It's ironic, but now we few members of the Circle are the last living things here, in our stolen bodies. Soon even those will die, and all life will pass from this world. It all went wrong shortly after Statesman fell to Lord Recluse. Recluse had tried so hard to make it happen, that he hadn't realized that many people had begun to look at you as the most poweful villain in the organization. While the heroes were divided and leaderless, Recluse tried to do away with you. I suppose this is what happens when he failed. Arachnos split. Scirocco tried to calm the fighting, and was killed by Ice Mistral. She was killed by Ghost Widow, and then chaos erupted as Arachnos fought a deadly civil war. Then the Council attempted a power play, and Nemesis moved to counter them. The heroes split into factions as they tried to handle the situation in different ways. Soon everyone was fighting. When the Rikti tried to strike, even they soon fell into a brutal civil was that still rages on their world. And now, all that's left here are the restless dead. But there might be a way to keep this from happening. We must find Dr. Aeon. He's been trying to find a way to stop this all from happening, but I think the pressure's getting to him. Still, I am certain you can get some information from him that just might keep the world from dying.' |
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
In his later portrayals, Doom is established as having earned the loyalty as well as the fear of his subjects by doing things like providing them with national security, economic prosperity, and safety from crime. He's shown as having some loyalty to his people and is willing to fight on their behalfs.
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Blue Battler... i think you just ruined part of the coming storm arc...
And really sorta screws with the villains side if what I think is right...
Basically I think the ultimate goal of Orobouros is to save Statesman so all the forces aren't weakened and can fend off the shivans and the coming storm... If that is correct I am highly annoyed as we as characters are supposed to be on equal grounds with the other iconic heroes and villains and it would suck that your importance is to stop to save Statesman to save the world >.>
