Who are the CoH analogs of...

Recluse does not have a "survival of the fittest" philosophy. That's just a rationalization, though Recluse might be deep enough in denial to believe it himself. The only philosophy Recluse believes is that Recluse should rule.

Alternate futures don't count. To swipe a line from normalman, "two almosts almost make one!"

He doesn't "rule" anything. He's the toughest guy around in the local pirate's den. That's it. The only reason he's even that is his underlings are too much in each other's way for any of them to take him out. The only reason the whole pirate's den even exists is because other nations have given it recognition for their own purposes -- I'd give the Rogue Isles about twelve hours in an open war with the US. 24 if we're having a bad day.

In fact, since the point of "Time After Time" is that you deter Recluse by beating him at his strongest, the real reason Recluse "rules" anything is because you let him.

Recluse hasn't succeeded in his plans, never will, and his lackeys aren't loyal to him.

"Future Recluse" is killed -- the battle is said to be "without honor, mercy or pity" -- but it's irrelevant because he doesn't even exist after you return. That timeline never comes to pass.

N.B. that the whole "Time After Time" arc is just more Anti Sue trash anyway. It's claimed that a factional conflict in Arachnos would have such far-reaching repercussions as to bring about the end of the world (which is the handwave reason why you don't just whack Recluse in the present). Arachnos is nothing but a yet another bunch of thugs in bad uniforms that can't even make any progress in Paragon City, but somehow it's so important its political infighting can determine the fate of the world.

Something Recluse does not do. He allows anyone to do whatever they want so long as they pay their "taxes" and don't directly act against his interests. This is why he's no ruler. Ultimately he's weak, useless and worthless -- like any other common bully. The only reason he's at the top of the heap is because it's written that it's so, which makes him an Anti Sue.

The US military has been severely diminished ever since the first Rikti war. It wouldn't surprise me if the Arachnos army is one of the strongest in the world. They even have the threat of nukes, in a roundabout way.

That dog won't hunt -- the first invasion was years ago, and the second was much less severe. Not only should the military be rebuilt by now, it should be rebuilt with improved technology.

The Rogue Isles has neither the population nor the infrastructure to support a military force of any real size. I wouldn't count on the superhumans to be of much use either. Not only is it established that superhumans in the City world aren't much use on battlefields (check the WWII historical entries) but you know the vast majority of them would bolt as soon as the balloon went up.

And yet, still, somehow, it hasn't. You know what my best evidence is? The Rogue Isles are still there.

I guess the name of *DARWIN's* Landing is just pure coincidence then. Also, I wonder what Kalinda's entire purpose is...

It can be argued that it's an alternate future as much as it can be argued that it is THE future, so they do very much count. We see futures where Recluse defeats his archnemesis Statesman (which is what successful villains do) but do we ever et to see a future where the good guys win?

Lord Recluse is the ruler of the Rogue Isles. If we're just gonna start ignoring and disregarding established canon facts for the heck of it, then I'm not sure how to continue the discussion.

You don't beat him at his strongest. If anything it could be argued that you beat him at his weakest, after he's worn out and weakened from the huge Earth-shattering war that only he survived. Compare the Recluse we fight at the end of the patron arc to the one we fight in the STF. Recluse at his strongest? uh, no.

He kills Statesman and wipes out the Phalanx in the future.

We never explicitly get RECLUSE IS DEAD like we do with other characters that have been killed in canon, therefore my point of that "defeat" being abstract still stands.

Except that timeline already came to pass in other planes (which can be confirmed by entities who experience time in a non-linear manner). Wether or not that timeline will come to pass in our plane remains to be seen, it would be simply absurd to arbitrarily claim that "it never comes to pass", especially since there's an entire freakin zone in the game where it happened. Notice that you access this zone from a Time Portal, which is a different portal (in both sides) than the ones we use to travel to alternate dimensions

Yes, which means that for all we know he's still alive and in charge after you return to the present, and that the present Recluse agrees to leave you alone; he''ll just have to find someone else to use in Project: DESTINY

GW's arc does suggest that the player character and Recluse kill each other, but Scirocco's doesn't. I'm sure neither do BS's or Mako, I'll have to check the souvenirs on the characters that have done them

Fixed. Oh, wait.

The Isles and Recluse's "administration" have been legally recognized by several other nations and the UN. As a result the US can't just go in swinging without causing an international crisis at best and a war at worst.

Look up the word "propaganda". Recluse affects and espouses a "survival of the fittest" ideology but it is clear that he doesn't really believe it, even if he thinks he does himself. He wouldn't exactly be the first "evil overlord" who ran around professing a belief in philosophies he didn't really understand, let alone actually practice. Westin Phipps and Recluse's willingness to let other gangs do as they please as long as they pay him off are the big signs that Recluse's avowed Darwinism does not bear close examination.

The entire point of "Time After Time" is the aversion of the predicted future.

As one of my best friend's mentors puts it, "you can glue feathers on a rat but that won't make it a swan". Saying that Recluse rules the Isles does not make it so. He is the ruler in the (mostly useless) sense that other nations have agreed to deal with him as the Isles front man, and that he is (again) the toughest guy with the biggest gang so people are likely to do what he says. He has no real political power or constituency.

Yes, you do, again, this is explicitly stated in "Time After Time". The entire point of the exercise is to defeat him in the future at his strongest so the present-time one will see that challenging you is futile.

Comic-book physics at work; a character's strength is directly proporotional to the strength of whomever he's fighting and/or the needs of the plot. Yes, I agree that kind of lameness is complete Bovine Stuff that has no place in any game, but I'm a simulationist so what do I know.

Fixed.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

...which are not ours. Thanks for playing.

Recluse's Victory is an alternate dimension, not a timeline. It's easy to miss that but it's stated in the various intros. N.B. that RV is yet another example of Recluse's Anti Sue nature: a guy with AN ARMY OF TELEPATHS who can SEE THE FUTURE could not prevent his captured researchers from sabotaging the Macguffinizers responsible for RV.

That would be an insult to Saturday-morning cartoon villains everywhere. Really, Skeletor would be an improvement.

They all portray the same future: everyone is dead.

Then I guess we both percieve the character in different manners and can only agree to disagree *shrug*

Cuba has never sent its army to free prisoners from US soil. If they thought they had a chance the US would have gone to war. They have gone to war over less in the real world.

I'm talking about Recluse.

Alternatively, Nemesis is an awesome villain. He's proto Dr. Doom with more style, and steampunk is fun.

While it's weird that he has loyal minions, every group does, and that's villain cliche. What makes him better than Recluse, other than actually demonstrating mental power rather than being a brute cast as a mastermind, is that players aren't assumed to be among those minions, and neither are high level AVs, or tons of text in newspapers and such.

I'm just repeating what's been said before by devs (particularly Manticore, if you want to try your search-fu the posts might still be around). Yes, it doesn't make sense that the Zig raid drew no real response (other than perhaps Longbow's "interest" in the Isles), but nothing else makes sense around here either.

I suppose the fanwank explanation is that Recluse denied any "official" Arachnos involvement in the raid and blamed it all on the "rogue" faction operating out of Warburg.

That's the impression that I got from the various arcs - you're too much for his project,he'll use someone else... the only problem is that the arcs generally end with him saying "ok, you're the big bad, go wreak havoc!" and then you go on to... keep playing the game, instead of becoming a world wide terror. Oh well.

There isn't anyone else. You are the Destined One, that's why you're able to use the Destiny Portal in the first place.

Remember, the story is only read once. Once Project Destiny ends with "Time After Time", it is over.

I don't know about Recluse's minions being completely disloyal. They do seem to fall in the Destro, or a little under Starscream, type, where they'll do what he says, and every so often try to usurp his position.

As for Nemesis? Which one? I mean, there's who knows how many Fakes running around and then there's the issue of Mender Silos. That seems a little too on the nose, right? Almost seems a Kang/Immortus situation there.

There are infinitely many parallel worlds in which Recluse wins.

There are infinitely many where Recluse loses.

There are infinitely many where Recluse doesn't even exist.

This is why alternate worlds don't count.

Praetoria is an alternate world (Upsilon Beta 9-6)
Shadow World is an alternate world (Zeta Tao 7-63)
Clockwork World is an alternate world (Epsilon Tau 27-2)

You access these through a dimensional portal.

Recluse's Victory is a potential future for Primal Earth (our world) which you access through a time portal, learn the difference.

Edit: also by your logic Praetoria doesn't "count" either, making the whole GR expansion pointless. Have a nice day!