Quote:
You've been trying to make this argument about top tier teams "spreading the wealth" forever now, and it's an absolute joke.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Exactly. But hey, it's your guys' league, so you get to decide how it runs. I know what I suggest would help the problem, but I can't force you to do it. Maybe in a year or 2 when the competition is even more dead, you'll finally be ready.
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Practically every single competitive FPS that has enjoyed a level of sustained prosperity in the realm of competition has not used an "open" draft, or forcefully spread out skilled players in order to generate a greater level of players on various teams.
Using Counterstrike as an example, the game has simply succeeded by sheer virtue of players joining teams, practicing, taking their losses, gaining experience, moving on to other teams until they eventually find their success.
I for one would love to help the community, but not at the full expense of the level of fun that I'm having. That fun comes partially from the game system, but I stay because of the people that I've been able to team with over time.
Every team that has found success in this game did so through extensive practice, taking repeated losses and eventually finding success, similar to the example I used above with Counterstrike.
My philosophy with helping D6ers to practice wasn't getting them all together onto a team and putting them up against another team. I honestly preferred to take a select few dedicated D6ers, throw them into a D8 match, and have them take their deaths. When you're playing with individuals who have a higher skill level than you, you push yourself further to learn, adapt, and reach their level, if at least to "keep up" with them.
Attempting to get a larger group of inexperienced players and peppering in experienced players in order to create more teams only ends up creating frustration for certain players in the end. It takes practice and dedication to eventually reach a level of success in anything that you do, even a hobby.
I may run my mouth and act like an absolute idiot on the 24/7, but I'll be the first person to admit the astronomical amount of losses I've taken. Many of them deserved, some of them notsomuch. With all of those losses I've taken, I've still come back to play the game and enjoy myself. If someone else is unable to do so, perhaps gaming competitively in this game isn't for them. It's that simple.
I can name plenty of teams that were inexperienced, were laughed at, and were destroyed in practice after practice, official after official. Eventually they came into their own and got the credit that they were looking for. I can think of plenty of players that over time have gained experience and flourished in particular roles in PvP. I know you're bitter that you'll never be one of them, Supermax, but that doesn't disprove my point.
Case in point: Attempting to force a draft on the ladder is a terrible idea, and that's putting my own personal bias aside.
On the note of the league being on test or on Freedom. The pros still outweigh the cons. It's not impossible to generate interest on a live server when all of the PvPers are now concentrated there. With all of us in arena chat, in zones, and doing kickballs on live, it is certainly an attainable goal if that goal is to spread interest to other players on a live server.
Freedom as a fallback server is a great idea, and while I understand that those that took part in the FPvPL have access to IO'd builds, I can speak from experience when I say that many D6ers that joined our team eventually became inactive simply because they could not afford a proper build in order to make them competitive. Playing on test helps to circumvent that issue, and guarantees that newer players that may not have the means to create a "Statesguard ReLoaded" (see: Retarded) esque build for one toon, much less a variety. Not all of us are Peril. Test ensures that if we have the stable of characters, we have the means to see them fully IO'd out, which elevates the level of competition even further. Again, this also creates build diversity, and line-up diversity. Isn't that something that a bunch of you were whining about?
well said vin.
Yeah, that was well-stated. Hopefully it's enough to shut down the nay-sayers. Sadly, they didn't get anything so far.
Quote:
>.>
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
Not reading everything, just saying I will be entering a team for the ladder.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Conflict and Coronaviradae have both expressed interest in forming teams, so that helps.
Quote:
You had me at hello. ;-)
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Originally Posted by vindizzLe
You've been trying to make this argument about top tier teams "spreading the wealth" forever now, and it's an absolute joke.
Practically every single competitive FPS that has enjoyed a level of sustained prosperity in the realm of competition has not used an "open" draft, or forcefully spread out skilled players in order to generate a greater level of players on various teams. Using Counterstrike as an example, the game has simply succeeded by sheer virtue of players joining teams, practicing, taking their losses, gaining experience, moving on to other teams until they eventually find their success. I for one would love to help the community, but not at the full expense of the level of fun that I'm having. That fun comes partially from the game system, but I stay because of the people that I've been able to team with over time. Every team that has found success in this game did so through extensive practice, taking repeated losses and eventually finding success, similar to the example I used above with Counterstrike. My philosophy with helping D6ers to practice wasn't getting them all together onto a team and putting them up against another team. I honestly preferred to take a select few dedicated D6ers, throw them into a D8 match, and have them take their deaths. When you're playing with individuals who have a higher skill level than you, you push yourself further to learn, adapt, and reach their level, if at least to "keep up" with them. Attempting to get a larger group of inexperienced players and peppering in experienced players in order to create more teams only ends up creating frustration for certain players in the end. It takes practice and dedication to eventually reach a level of success in anything that you do, even a hobby. I may run my mouth and act like an absolute idiot on the 24/7, but I'll be the first person to admit the astronomical amount of losses I've taken. Many of them deserved, some of them notsomuch. With all of those losses I've taken, I've still come back to play the game and enjoy myself. If someone else is unable to do so, perhaps gaming competitively in this game isn't for them. It's that simple. I can name plenty of teams that were inexperienced, were laughed at, and were destroyed in practice after practice, official after official. Eventually they came into their own and got the credit that they were looking for. I can think of plenty of players that over time have gained experience and flourished in particular roles in PvP. I know you're bitter that you'll never be one of them, Supermax, but that doesn't disprove my point. Case in point: Attempting to force a draft on the ladder is a terrible idea, and that's putting my own personal bias aside. On the note of the league being on test or on Freedom. The pros still outweigh the cons. It's not impossible to generate interest on a live server when all of the PvPers are now concentrated there. With all of us in arena chat, in zones, and doing kickballs on live, it is certainly an attainable goal if that goal is to spread interest to other players on a live server. Freedom as a fallback server is a great idea, and while I understand that those that took part in the FPvPL have access to IO'd builds, I can speak from experience when I say that many D6ers that joined our team eventually became inactive simply because they could not afford a proper build in order to make them competitive. Playing on test helps to circumvent that issue, and guarantees that newer players that may not have the means to create a "Statesguard ReLoaded" (see: Retarded) esque build for one toon, much less a variety. Not all of us are Peril. Test ensures that if we have the stable of characters, we have the means to see them fully IO'd out, which elevates the level of competition even further. Again, this also creates build diversity, and line-up diversity. Isn't that something that a bunch of you were whining about? |
Quote:
The pre-I13 ladder fizzling out had less to do with people refusing to start new teams than it did with the I12 closed beta being retardedly long and many PvPers not getting in.
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
When the ladder crumbled it was already becoming stagment with teams constantly dropping out before I13 even hit.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Maybe the solution is pretty simple.
Have a test ladder or have it on Freedom, really the arguments for both are pretty equal. Those teams just like the old ladder with loli13 rules. If its just 4-6 teams then so be it. With it being matches scheduled between Captains and not having to play a certain number of matches a week people in general should have time for more than one source of pvp.
Second source of pvp is a mini league or ladder as suggested by me in the other thread. Smaller teams, more teams, thus more opportunity for new pvprs and subpar pvprs to get a spot.
Lets be honest here, none of the experienced highend teams are going to let a lot of people even warm their benches more less actually get match time. A mini-league that is not a draft but actual mini teams can be a revolving continuous door to feed the higher end ladder.
This would solve both problems. Leave a door open for new people. Leave a door open for people wanting a more casual pvp. Help feed a ladder to grow more. Even give the highend all I wanna do is pvp all the time people even more pvp to occupy their time. With it being a mini ladder rather than a mini league its a little less time constraining being matches are scheduled rather than having to be weekly.
Quote:
Wasn't even trying to insinuate it's crumbling had anything to do with people refusing to start new teams. Was simply stating that when it fell down to only 5-6 teams it became extremely boring and less and less matches were occuring. I think now with even less people that result would come even quicker.
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Originally Posted by macskull
The pre-I13 ladder fizzling out had less to do with people refusing to start new teams than it did with the I12 closed beta being retardedly long and many PvPers not getting in.
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Something smaller, like a mini-Ladder would be fine for creating new PvPrs, or.. In a way coaching them. That's all great, but in all honestly, I doubt many people in the larger Ladder would be overly enthused about doing both. Conflicting practice/match times is just one reason. Also, if it's 5v5, you're going to run into the same issues you did on the other thread. Most of the PvPrs aren't interested in 5v5s. It'd need to be larger, and if that's the case, the two Ladders would just be in competition with each other.
I'm not saying don't go for it, or don't find a solution to make it work. I just think these are things to consider. The most evident of them, anyway, and if there's an easy fix I don't see. Cheers. =P
I'll have to agree with Con here. Winning or losing, the game is more fun when playing it with friends.
hey can we start this anytime soon, i'm really eager to join one of the badder teams and dominate the league.
On the subject of spliting up the top teams/having roster caps:
Why can't people seriously put in the time to get decent? Why are we advocating rules that force people that have put in the time to play with people that don't want to but still want to win?
Here's how it should go:
1. You form a team with your friends and join the PvP ladder
2. You have your first practice and lose 50 to 2
3. You sit and discuss "wtf why isn't this working?"
4. You have your second practice and lose 50 to 2
5. You sit in /tells with people who are farming you and they usually give solid advice.
6. You practice said advice
7. Your first official - you lose 20 to 4
8. you practice more
9-X You repeat until you're decent
Seriously...people need to put in the time. If you don't want to put in the time to be decent, don't expect to be. It took dUmb over a year to get to a point where we could compete (we were never top tier, but we might have gotten there had the PvP changes not happened).
The arguement of "People won't continue doing something if they keep getting their face smashed in" isn't valid in my opinion. People should be PvPing in this game because A). Its the only difficult thing to do in this game and B). The competition is good. If people don't want to put in the time to master something that is difficult - then they probably shouldn't do it.
Quote:
Lets make one!
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Originally Posted by slickadelaphante
hey can we start this anytime soon, i'm really eager to join one of the badder teams and dominate the league.
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Tychians
Quote:
the thing that made the most difference in any of the teams i've played with has been the realization that you may want to run a 6 psi/em 2 blaster team, but if you have a really really good kin/sonic/dom/mm/whatever, building your lineup around them is the way to go (ie, ujl winning a double sonic match against rens by putting syph on sonic, the vrc trapper fiasco, cigal's acceptable stalker + dom team (while kat wasn't off trying to reinvent the gay griefer lineup wheel), u2bg putting march on kin and forcing me to play my stupid elec/ea stalker, dumb's storm team..).
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Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
On the subject of spliting up the top teams/having roster caps:
Why can't people seriously put in the time to get decent? Why are we advocating rules that force people that have put in the time to play with people that don't want to but still want to win? Here's how it should go: 1. You form a team with your friends and join the PvP ladder 2. You have your first practice and lose 50 to 2 3. You sit and discuss "wtf why isn't this working?" 4. You have your second practice and lose 50 to 2 5. You sit in /tells with people who are farming you and they usually give solid advice. 6. You practice said advice 7. Your first official - you lose 20 to 4 8. you practice more 9-X You repeat until you're decent Seriously...people need to put in the time. If you don't want to put in the time to be decent, don't expect to be. It took dUmb over a year to get to a point where we could compete (we were never top tier, but we might have gotten there had the PvP changes not happened). The arguement of "People won't continue doing something if they keep getting their face smashed in" isn't valid in my opinion. People should be PvPing in this game because A). Its the only difficult thing to do in this game and B). The competition is good. If people don't want to put in the time to master something that is difficult - then they probably shouldn't do it. |
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Bug I'm so glad to see you, we got along so well together on Infinity, just like me and everybody else on the server.|
Originally Posted by Bug_You
Lets make one!
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And yes, let's make one, we'll call the group HP Bugs You, muhahahaa
Quote:
This. The teams that were the ones to beat were the ones that made the new fotm lineups by trying new ****. They were usually the ones to find the next ones once everyone copied them too.
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Originally Posted by iLostCountBarrier
the thing that made the most difference in any of the teams i've played with has been the realization that you may want to run a 6 psi/em 2 blaster team, but if you have a really really good kin/sonic/dom/mm/whatever, building your lineup around them is the way to go (ie, ujl winning a double sonic match against rens by putting syph on sonic, the vrc trapper fiasco, cigal's acceptable stalker + dom team (while kat wasn't off trying to reinvent the gay griefer lineup wheel), u2bg putting march on kin and forcing me to play my stupid elec/ea stalker, dumb's storm team..).
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"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
Quote:
Running a small league on live alongside a test ladder is a bad idea. The intention isn't to split the focus, but rather to draw a majority to one area in order to strengthen it. As opposed to running a seperate league/ladder on live, you could opt instead to set aside a day every week where we run kickballs starting a certain time until there aren't enough players to continue on.|
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
Maybe the solution is pretty simple.
Have a test ladder or have it on Freedom, really the arguments for both are pretty equal. Those teams just like the old ladder with loli13 rules. If its just 4-6 teams then so be it. With it being matches scheduled between Captains and not having to play a certain number of matches a week people in general should have time for more than one source of pvp. Second source of pvp is a mini league or ladder as suggested by me in the other thread. Smaller teams, more teams, thus more opportunity for new pvprs and subpar pvprs to get a spot. Lets be honest here, none of the experienced highend teams are going to let a lot of people even warm their benches more less actually get match time. A mini-league that is not a draft but actual mini teams can be a revolving continuous door to feed the higher end ladder. This would solve both problems. Leave a door open for new people. Leave a door open for people wanting a more casual pvp. Help feed a ladder to grow more. Even give the highend all I wanna do is pvp all the time people even more pvp to occupy their time. With it being a mini ladder rather than a mini league its a little less time constraining being matches are scheduled rather than having to be weekly. |
I understand that people try (and normally succeed) to get KBs going nightly, but back in the day, Friday night kickballs on test always garnered interest from not only the high end competitive players, but newer players as well. Posting on the boards about it regularly and getting a larger portion of players to try and make it on a set night isn't a bad idea, and achieves a similar goal that a separate league on live does.
On the note of high end teams allowing players to warm the bench more often, I can speak more from experience here than you can considering you're terrible and don't have much test league experience, but the best of 3 match option allows teams to rotate in non-starters so that they have a chance to prove themselves as well. This goes back to the issue of players practicing and proving that they deserve to start for a team. If we're running another league on live to accommodate "bench-warmers", that may eventually cause a division between players trying to run a test league successfully, and those who would rather stay on live simply because they don't have to try in order to start for their teams.
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LOL nice, personal attacks are the way to go I guess. Face it, you don't know anything about me. I PvP'd on test long before I ever heard of you. Not that it matters - just don't make baseless assumptions.|
Originally Posted by vindizzLe
I know you're bitter that you'll never be one of them, Supermax, but that doesn't disprove my point.
Case in point: Attempting to force a draft on the ladder is a terrible idea, and that's putting my own personal bias aside. |
Also, you having the opinion that something is a terrible idea doesn't actually make it one. It's your opinion. In the end, it really doesn't matter because it's clearly not going to happen.
Supermax was in JAL's live zone PvP group back the fandango off.
I did a quick combining of old ladder and league rules, so I'm sure there are mistakes, but here's a rough draft to digest, correct, debate, etc.:
Ladder Entry and Positioning:
• Teams sign up for the ladder by announcing so in this thread after creating an official team thread (on these same PvP Arena boards) with their official roster and team name.
• Initial ladder placement will occur when the first match takes place between 2 teams that have signed up for the ladder.
After this initial match has taken place, the following procedures will be in place:
• Teams climb rungs by challenging teams on higher rungs.
• Challenges must be accepted by teams that are less than 3 rungs higher than the challenging team. (Teams on rungs higher than 2 spots above the challenging teams can refuse the challenge.)
• Challenging teams can only move up 1 rung at a time by winning matches against teams on higher rungs.
• Challenges are to be made and responded to in this thread.
• Challenges must be responded to within 48 hours or the challenging team is awarded a forfeit.
Banned Powers List:
• Banned: Defender TK
• Banned: Dominator Poisonous Ray
• Banned: Corrupter Lingering Radiation
• Banned: Stalker Thunderstrike
Team Captains must be able to show proof for a ruling to be made on the use of restricted powers, enhancements, and/or procs. Use of the above-listed powers will result in a forfeit for the violating team.
Match Rules:
• All matches will take place in Pocket D, Test Server. If Test is down, Freedom Server will be used as a substitute during that time.
• Matches will consist of 10-minute rounds. Rounds will be played until 2 rounds have been won by one of the teams.
• Matches will be 8v8. If both captains agree to it, team sizes may be reduced.
• Round Wins: The team that has scored the most kills at the end of a 10 minute round is the winner of that round. Rounds in which Sudden Death occurs are considered ties, no matter the result of the Sudden Death Round.
Round Details:
• Round Length: All rounds will be 10 minutes in length.
• Round Settings: All rounds will be set with only the following options selected: No Travel Suppression; No Heal Decay; Small Inspirations Only, Super Heavyweight.
• Map Selection and Illegal Maps: Map selection will be set to Random for all rounds. Resets occur if the map draw is: Monkey Cage, Office, or Cave.
• Each team is allowed one reset within 60 seconds of round start if a player did not load into the round, disconnected, or loaded in off-team. Teams will play short-handed if their reset has been spent. If a round is reset, the line-ups submitted for that round are to be played again with no AT alterations and on the same map.
• Only small inspirations and temp powers bought from the Arena Store are allowed. No Base Buffs or special inspirations (i.e. Presents and SoWs) are permitted.
• No Ouroboros portals will be permitted during the match.
• All matches must start within 15 minutes of the agreed upon match time. This includes time required to submit and approve line-ups.
• Match Results: The captain of the winning team must post the match results in the official ladder thread within 24 hours of match completion. Both team captains should be prepared to supply screenshots of the results for all rounds if necessary.
Line-up Submission Rules and Procedures:
• Prior to each round of a match, the captains of each team will be required to present their lineups via private tells to a neutral, 3rd party line-up taker (agreed upon by team captains).
• The 3rd party line-up taker will ask both captains for their lineups at least 5 minutes prior to the start of each round. The line-up taker will announce that the round is playable once he or she has received both team line-ups. The line-up taker will NOT disclose the line-ups to anyone until both line-ups have been received.
• A team will forfeit the round if they do not submit a line-up prior to that round.
• A team will forfeit the round if they run any line-up other than the one submitted to the line-up taker.
General Match Procedure:
1. Team Captains present their lineups to the agreed upon line-up taker.
2. In arena chat, the line-up taker announces both line-ups and that the round is cleared to start.
3. The round is listed and played out.
I honestly think the line up submission thing is really unnecessary and kind of retarded.
I don't really have a preference. I know Slax and some of the others on our team really liked the blind submission, and a few others have said that on here, so that's why I included it. I know Barrier hates it. You guys fight it out or vote or whatever it takes I guess.
Quote:
agreed.|
Originally Posted by slickadelaphante
I honestly think the line up submission thing is really unnecessary and kind of retarded.
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it takes away the value of knowing how to counter a specific line-up.
Bottom line is, if you're not currently the best team out there, you won't be just getting rolled by the best. You'll be able to get better and gain PvP experience by playing against other people on your level, and when you choose, you can play some of the better teams. It's not like a good team is asking for you to line up for their firing squad, which is what it seems like some of you are making it out to be.
If someone can't handle losing matches, PvP's not for you, is a short answer/response.