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Isn't that the point? It's called parity. It's the whole reason for salary caps in professional sports. It's why the winning teams don't win by tripling the other teams' scores, and why every year it's usually different teams battling for the #1 spot, not the same 1-2 teams.|
Originally Posted by Silit
Not to mention, all splitting up good teams would do is make a bunch of mediocre teams, rather than some good teams/some decent teams/some less decent teams. |
Regarding friends, I did mention that. People will never put the community's needs ahead of their own. If forced to not play with their friends, they will simply not play. But it's silly to imply there's no ego involved. You can always make new friends, you're still playing the same game, and you can still talk to your friends, even if they're on a different team.
The difference is that you're guaranteed to do worse than you're doing now, because you'll be on a worse team with worse players. It's totally understandable that you don't want to do that, but let's not lie to ourselves claiming it has nothing to do with ego.
The point is, splitting the top teams is what needs to be done to have a competitive community in this game. No way around it. That's how it is in every single dying game. There are oldschool players that are 10 times better than everybody else, and the ONLY way to have competition is to NOT have these players all on the same 1-2 teams. However, for the reasons stated above, it will never happen. It would be great, but it's not a realistic expectation. Which is why we can expect the current state of things to continue indefinitely.
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What?
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
Wow.
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Splitting up teams is a stupid idea. No matter how you distribute people, there will be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. If they're better, they deserve to be. You seem to have some reservations towards this Ladder unless you can remove the fun from some other pre-existing teams.
That's fairly ignorant. Not everyone can be the best at any certain point in time, and there may be teams you generally always lose to. But there will also be some you beat, and others you trade wins with. Just the nature of anything competitive. We don't get paid to be here. This is for fun. No one's being split up.
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You're missing what we're saying. Splitting up the teams isn't going to help. Did you not read what Vex or Silit said? |
Originally Posted by Supermax
Isn't that the point? It's called parity. It's the whole reason for salary caps in professional sports. It's why the winning teams don't win by tripling the other teams' scores, and why every year it's usually different teams battling for the #1 spot, not the same 1-2 teams.
Regarding friends, I did mention that. People will never put the community's needs ahead of their own. If forced to not play with their friends, they will simply not play. But it's silly to imply there's no ego involved. You can always make new friends, you're still playing the same game, and you can still talk to your friends, even if they're on a different team. The difference is that you're guaranteed to do worse than you're doing now, because you'll be on a worse team with worse players. It's totally understandable that you don't want to do that, but let's not lie to ourselves claiming it has nothing to do with ego. The point is, splitting the top teams is what needs to be done to have a competitive community in this game. No way around it. That's how it is in every single dying game. There are oldschool players that are 10 times better than everybody else, and the ONLY way to have competition is to NOT have these players all on the same 1-2 teams. However, for the reasons stated above, it will never happen. It would be great, but it's not a realistic expectation. Which is why we can expect the current state of things to continue indefinitely. |
You'll always have teams starting out having to eat their crap sandwich for awhile, but the point is to practice/get better and climb the ladder. If I'm not mistaken the way the ladder works is the bottom team can't even challenge the top team until they work their way up? So you wouldn't have to worry about the top 2-3 teams taking a dump on the faces on the lower end teams.
Eloquent!
I don't think the skill disparity is actually as bad as it once was IF you have a couple of people that just seem to semi understand the arena basics. Look at EP from the league. That team was not a joke; they practiced and improved, got some quality wins, and they didn't get rolled too often like people thought they would when they entered the league. Their D8 team played some decent rounds against the league winners, U2BG, if I'm not mistaken. Actually, looking at U2BG's GP site, their last official against EP in D8 had scores of 4-3, 13-2, and 10-6. I think all league teams had either some split wins or close matches against each other, so I don't think it's as bad as you may think.
Honestly, teams aren't nearly as "hardcore" as they used to be in the old ladder days. I don't see any teams out there practicing almost nightly as some of the teams used to a while back. Experience can only make up for so much lack of practice, and that's why I think teams that actually try will stand a fighting chance against the vets.
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Eh. true. :P
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Originally Posted by Vexington
Right, I'm not sure why you're concerned. Do you plan on being a bottom rung?
It'll work itself out. Some players/teams will be better than others. When there's a swing/shift a #1 team can now be at the bottom. These things can/will happen in time. If you'd like to propose an "EVERYONE wins" suggestion, we could just all go PvE. That's not realistic, is what I'm telling you. |
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So here is a question. Lets just say for argument sake that the top 2 teams did split up. Say you ran one, Dex ran one, Vinnie ran one and Silit ran one. Say you each took 1/2 of your current team and then filled the rest of the team with noobs. Are you going to tell me that the team you ran couldn't competitively compete with the team Silit ran? Or the team Dex ran?|
Originally Posted by Vexington
Splitting up teams is a stupid idea. No matter how you distribute people, there will be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. If they're better, they deserve to be. You seem to have some reservations towards this Ladder unless you can remove the fun from some other pre-existing teams.
That's fairly ignorant. Not everyone can be the best at any certain point in time, and there may be teams you generally always lose to. But there will also be some you beat, and others you trade wins with. Just the nature of anything competitive. We don't get paid to be here. This is for fun. No one's being split up. |
Essentially if you said that you would be saying the other guys are better than you, which is far from the truth. It really isn't the teams that are the issue, its the leaders. You have already proven you can teach noobs, look at your current d6 team. Splitting up would just mean more noobs get the experience of being lead by strong pvpr's.
Should you feel obligated to do so? Naw. However don't make it sound like it wouldn't work or that it would only make a bunch of mediocre teams because that is far from the truth. It all narrows down to the people on the top teams want to either A. play with who they want to. or B. play with people they know they can count on to win. You guys are not wrong for that but its also not the option that would help the community grow the most either.
Look at the League. Why did so many new pvpr's learn so much? Why did the community grow so much? Because the rules forced it to be so. Eventhough the Community grew by say 20% it is still 80% less than it was when the ladder crumbled. When the ladder crumbled it was already becoming stagment with teams constantly dropping out before I13 even hit. Now we have half as many players and half as many team possibilities. IMHO 8v8 ladder with no team size cap and none of the teams willing to split up to run other teams isn't going to last very long before it becomes stagment as well.
None of that changes that people should be able to play with who they want and really there is no obligation to do otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that it would help. :-)
I never said it'd be impossible to compete with splitting teams. Hell, no one's said that. I said it isn't a cure for reality, which is.. At the end of the day. Someone's winning, and someone's losing. And that proposition limits fun. It's also an assumption that what was SMD will be represented in a possible Ladder. That's a stretch. =P
Not reading everything, just saying I will be entering a team for the ladder.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
Also, no one's really gotten around to deciding whether or not there should be a cap, and if so, at what point. These things all remain to be seen.
I notice the old test ladder thread is no longer stickied with the rules. My searchfu seems to be broken, anyone have it by chance?
If not, I'm pretty sure I have a ruleset that's close enough for us to tweak.
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It would definitely help. I speak from experience. This isn't the first dying game I've played. All competitive games eventually get to a point where the community becomes very small and becomes comprised of really good players and not so good ones. The really good ones tend to be on the same couple teams.|
Originally Posted by Griefer_Dirge
You're missing what we're saying. Splitting up the teams isn't going to help.
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When they're forced to split up, this creates more competition. This specific idea allowed a dying Unreal Tournament 1 game to keep being competitive for like 3 more years, after ALL ladders died and 99% of teams disbanded. You know, exactly like CoH right now?
People put their egos aside, went with a full draft, sometimes ended up on teams with their friends anyway (depending on the leader's drafting strategy), met new friends, and ended up having like 10 seasons, becoming actually probably the most successful league in the game's history.
No, the drafted teams were not as good as the top teams that existed when the game was in its prime...but it was the best solution for the problem. Instead of just complaining about no competition, the community went and created it. Too bad this community isn't capable of that, as that would be fun to see in CoH.
I'm for competition.
Why can't you understand that some teams will still be better than others? Did you also read what Psoma said? 'Cause it's a great point. People will play with their friends. This is supposed to be fun, remember? Any team can do well. Add practice. Boom, good to go. GG
Also, as far as competition, if you're not immediately able to have close matches with top tier teams, you'll still have good matches with others until you get to that point. You're supposed to be working towards something, and what's better than something just outa reach at the time? >.>
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Except, the POOL of players for PvP is small. Getting rolled over and over, regardless of practice or not, will drive people away. They can only learn on their own for so long. What's a better tool to learn from? Your own way, or by experienced PvP Players in THEIR team showing them the ropes?|
Originally Posted by Vexington
Why can't you understand that some teams will still be better than others? Did you also read what Psoma said? 'Cause it's a great point. People will play with their friends. This is supposed to be fun, remember? Any team can do well. Add practice. Boom, good to go. GG
Also, as far as competition, if you're not immediately able to have close matches with top tier teams, you'll still have good matches with others until you get to that point. You're supposed to be working towards something, and what's better than something just outa reach at the time? >.> |
That is why so many D6ers improved in the league. It was because of that. Experienced PvPers taught them. Not left to fend for themselves.
Just asking is all. :P
And yes, I get your point. Normally I would agree, but if you're trying to promote more participation, then you can't expect players to have the "patience" or the "skin" to learn the hard way, especially new ones, and expect them to stay when they get steamrolled regardless of strategy and amount of time of practice.
And yes, I agree it's supposed to be fun. I want it to be fun. Who says playing with new players can't be fun? BUT it's not fun to lose. And eventually, this fun will equate to that. Not many new players are like me, where I can take a loss and still have fun. They equate WINNING = FUN. Unfortunately.
You have different experience levels for teams. But eventually people will get tired of playing the same teams all the time just because they equate in the same level of lolPvPSkill.
Anyway, regardless of what is decided, I'm down for whatever. lol
I haz no drama. I will definatly need to be on a team asap! when does this Ladder kick off? 
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I bow to the ego of an experienced game player. This probably isn't the first "dying game" that a lot of people currently playing have played, me being one of them. |
Originally Posted by Supermax
It would definitely help. I speak from experience. This isn't the first dying game I've played.
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I think the voice of reason has spoken from Psoma, Silit and Vex.
Honestly, I don't have a problem with the idea of experienced pvpers helping others to get off the ground, but in the end I doubt pvpers who want to play with friends will go for splitting teams. The point is we should be looking into other venues that don't involve splitting peeps, like maybe prize incentives or something to that nature. Maybe even setting a 6, 7 or w/e team minimum to launch, and getting dedicated captains to go cross server recruiting. People can start posting threads on pvp tactics/lineups/strategies or whatever, there are other ways to grow the community than disrupting the fun the current pvpers are having with the people they like to play with.
You shouldn't have to change the status quo so that people who don't know how to pvp but want to can get into it, oh hi i13.
I promise I will have more fun getting farmed with friends than teaming with people I don't really know.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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Silit is pretty bang on here.|
Originally Posted by Silit
What Reaver said. It's not an ego thing at all. We play with people who we like to play with. I can guarantee you that my team would quit the game instantly if we were forced to split up.
Not to mention, all splitting up good teams would do is make a bunch of mediocre teams, rather than some good teams/some decent teams/some less decent teams. The whole point of doing a ladder over a league is to make for a more casual experience and allow people to play where they want, when they want. |
As much as I like helping new PvPers (and I do!) you can't make people play for another team. I've seen this happen too many times on the old Test ladder where there was an internal ego conflict and then the Blaster wouldn't lock or the Emp would skip whoever they had a tiff with and it would just screw the whole team over.
I mean, let's face it. It's not just experience, it's also that some are younger, some have faster reflexes, some people just have talent, to put it bluntly. I mean, I could practice another 3 years but I'd never have emped as well Moe in the old ladder. I gained some tips from a bunch of people and that helped but yeah, dUmb let me join them and I'm happy with that.
We've had this dilemma before. Heck on Chamopion (I know, lolChampion) we had War Scribe willing to teach new people the ropes and Elf Stalker (I know, lolElf Stalker) but people have expectations that they can roll 20 Nemesis guys and they can do that on PvP too. So when they get crushed by an experienced vet not a lot of them go "How can I get better?" Heck, some of us in a zone were like..."Well, take a build2 and get SS/SJ, an escape power and try to gain more hit points" only to be rebuffed by said person: "Well I wanted to try with my character as is, sorry." and then they never PvP again.
On top of that, some people just work better together. I know when I was with Integrity on the ladder Stryker and I got used to our styles and we worked well together. You can certainly get that type of familiarity with another team (I think I've gotten used to Sir and Psoma with dUmb) but I'm sure a lot of people will be "Aaaaaaaaaaah whatever" and just not show for the new team.
Bottom line:
Say we had a dispersal draft and Silit ended up with say, Team X. He doesn't want to be there so you can't force him to play or even play well.
Even if teams were to carry rookies, the rookies are gonna get farmed. They'll get better for sure, as Dirge said, if they stick with it. If the person likes the rush of logging in and fighting other people at (somewhat) high speeds they may stick with it.
Unfortunately, unless the team has a "If you show you play" policy, even the new players might not see much "icetime". This was actually the best part of the OLD ladder, where you had a guy like Healing Hank make Awesome Avengers. He had guys like Robobug and I hopped in and you had new people who he helped out and gave tips to. Sure AA got rolled a lot but everyone got some experience. Some sticked with it and others didn't.
We're not even getting into people attached to their character concepts and not wanting to get into a new build or PLing...
Wow, this has gotten pretty longwinded...
TLDR:
I agree with Silit, Max and Kat. People are gonna wanna play with friends, we need to have some sort of weaning in process and people are going to need the urge to compete in the first place.
/Psypunk
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
I like Freedom, copying to test is a chore, that and teams who are multi-server are kinda SOL in CB for Freedom only matches.
That and stop calling our team quasimodUmb, Psoma.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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Exactly. But hey, it's your guys' league, so you get to decide how it runs. I know what I suggest would help the problem, but I can't force you to do it. Maybe in a year or 2 when the competition is even more dead, you'll finally be ready.
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Originally Posted by JKwervo
That is why so many D6ers improved in the league. It was because of that. Experienced PvPers taught them. Not left to fend for themselves.
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I like test playing and I have no problem rolling new toons on Freedom or moving a few from Justice if that's what it takes to be able to go to Freedom when the occasion calls for it.
Splitting teams, not splitting teams, as long as I'm having a good time i really don't give a ****.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
Don't start, Kat!!!!!! XD