Live Patch Notes - 5/12/10

And in the meanwhile, what, we just wont play that TF? Great job.

IIRC this question was asked before, and the general answer was "No, because it's too exploitable." Though I don't know how it's any more exploitable than the current setup, since a team could (if they so desired) start a TF, log out for an hour, and then come back to finish it up just to increase the complete time. But I doubt there's much of this going on, because obviously the people who do speed runs are too impatient to try this strategy. I mean I agree with you, but I think they've already said No.

They become your cellphone provider.

Well, if they only want to have small differences between the two instances of Mitos, they could just put a If Class == Boss_Mito check (or !=) on the relevant attributes (for instance the mez protection).

A mistake was made. Luckily the universe hasn't imploded. In the meantime there are a couple dozen other TFs you can do, and hundreds of hours of other game content. There's also a whole bunch of stuff you could be doing outside of the game, and possibly even in the real world. So sit back and relax, and wait for the fix to come down the pipe. No use in getting worked up over it. ;]

While you are at it, just put a timer on each mission that won't let people finish until it expires . That way speed runs would be completely impossible. The game would be about as much fun as watching paint dry but it seems to be heading in that direction anyway.

In all seriousness, speed runs aren't the problem they are the fun. Instead of trying to kill the fun in the game, there should be more concentration on providing incentives to run TFs on higher difficulty settings and determining the inherent difficulty of the TF not trying to use merit rewards as some sort of regulator valve for allowing IOs to enter the system.

I loled at that. Mostly because I dumped my carrier (ATT pre reintegration) over just that. Then my L.E.C. became ATT, and I dumped them.

the aftermath of i13 PvP happens... and AE Rewards...Botz...

No, given enough damage you can overcome the greens without holding them, although I am not certain of this since this patch. We were able to finish the LGTF in i17 before this patch by nuking/shivs/HVAS etc. to defeat the Hamidon and then the remaining greens (blues and yellows down already).

Just remember that the first green is always the hardest to defeat since the other greens are healing it. It is at this point where you need the most buffs/damage/pets to be working.

As you defeat more greens it becomes a little easier, unless your buffs and pets wear out before you can overcome all the greens.

To be fair, there are a lot of people who hate speed runs. You define them as "fun", others (myself included) define them as "way, waaaay on the suck end of not fun". I specifically recruit for TFs as "Normal paced, not-a-speed-run" so people who specifically want a speed run know not to join my TF. In fact, even the not-speed-runs on the ITF tend to go too quick for me, I miss the days of fighting up Lag Valley, and taking over the computer terminals so the pop-up turrets fight on your side :[ Also, I would guess that most people don't do speed-runs for the "fun" factor, they do it for the "more reward for time spent" factor. Which may be a part of their fun, but if I had to put money on it I'd say that IF the reward wasn't based on time spent, and IF running the TF faster meant a reduced reward over spending [some standard time] on it, many of the speed runs would stop. But again, that's still exploitable. I don't know what the fix is, but I know nothing will make everyone happy. *shrug*

I agree with Don's sentiment here: Why compare to the original design when we've had the TF live for quite some time? I also agree that requiring 6-8 controllers/doms is a bit much.

However, just to play devil's advocate on the above statement, hasn't it been this way since inception already?

The first time I ran this with a core group of friends I play with regularly, we did this with one of our typical "all buff" teams. Mostly trollers, defs and corrs allowed as well. This team typically steamrolls content at high difficulty, and we did so on the LGTF until Hami's Yellow friends. We could not put a dent in them with all our ranged attacks. I queried some gfriends that helped me remember that melee damage was needed. A few of us had Sands of Mu and one had taken an APP melee attack, but after taking 1 of them down in 20 mins with multiple wipes, we threw in the towel. However, this happened ONCE. Now, if any of us are forming a LGTF with no melee, someone (preferably 2) has to swap*. I assume the same would happen if all Brutes/Scrappers showed up, but that never happens in the circles I run in.

My longwinded point is that I don't think it's necessarily bad (or at least not unique) to require holds as part of the encounter since melee and ranged damage are already required. Perhaps those are easier to come by on most teams (esp with Vet attacks), but it still already comes into play when forming a team. And a hold is included in nearly all non-Dom/Troller APPs as well. Like I said, 6+ is a bit much, but I don't think requiring 1 or 2 with some minor support from APP powers (or maybe add some Holding Vet or Temp powers) is so bad and is similar to what is already required.

It also seems like the devs' intent in the newer content is to encourage "well balanced" teams, perhaps so that any AT can contribute.

*I will admit that now that we know better, we could likely complete the LGTF with 8 controllers with a little forward planning/alternate builds, but this was our first time and it was getting late. Hopefully, the LGTF will be adapted to similar levels of hold protection as well.

Yea that would be nice since most teams cannot hit anywhere close to 50 mags of hold. This change burned this TF for many people. I ask how it worked in design to give mitos this much hold protection? Most AVs don't have regen auras like mitos do and they are easier to hold. My Doms can perma hold nearly everything in the game and these mitos give him them a hard time.

Support is telling us, its working as intended and screwing people out of the merits they deserve. I personally love this TF, but if changes are not put through, I already have the badge on my main badger. I will simply avoid this TF.

Or they could switch from the Ones table to a rank scaling table and picking appropriate numbers, but I would not recommend either in this case. In my opinion, AttributeRequires is probably abused more than it should be already.

You can skip over all the filler missions you don't want to do without wasting a drop on them.

No, but I do expect 3 stacked holds to mez a level 10 boss.

I'm a bit confused by what you say here. Mitos in the LGTF and in the Hami raid are the same thing except that they're lowered from AV to Lt. status? Does this mean the mitos in the Hami raid are buffed by this "fix", too? And wouldn't it implicate that the level of mez protection was set to be a raid challenge instead of being a TF killer?

And another thing bothers and confuses me as well. All this talk about green Mitos permaholding themselves. I might be completely wrong about it, but wouldn't a held green Mito stop healing itself and other Mitos? I have done the LGTF often before I17 and I have seen the green Mitos at work.

Btw, what is the mez protection level for regular Mitos? If it's true, that the LGTF Mitos are the same as the raid Mitos, is it possible, that the -50 was set to be added (or subtracted) to what is set for the raid Mito to make it easier to defeat them? Like as if they were in a weakened state?

I'd like to see this on more TFs. TFs used to be great for XP but now almost everyone seems to be a rushing through; even if there are people who would like XP on the TF. I'm sick of asking if it's a speed run, get told "no", only to join and get TPd from boss to boss. This seems to have become more frequent over the past two or three issues.

There aren't a couple of dozen other TFs redside. If the content is there we should be able to play that content. I don't think anyone would suggest you have missions which are deliberately unable to be completed.

People are complaining because:
1) It was a dumb move by the Devs to mess it up the first time
2) It was even dumber move to 'fix' it so it can't be completed
3) There is no assurance of a fix in the near future

Frankly after the MA lies - yes lies - I have zero confidence in an expediated fix for this problem.*

TFs shouldn't require you to have all those buffs/pets in order to finish anything.

Speed TFs are fun for some and not for others, which is fine, no arguments there. I like speed runs because they challenge you beyond the norm of the game. Spiking Cyst solo is no easy feat for most builds for example. The "fix" made the LGTF harder for everyone, not just speed teams. The LGTF is no longer a TF where any AT works, you *MUST* have enough control to reach 50 mags of hold. Or as stated earlier a load of temps.

It's definitely not ideal, but neither is maintaining two separate sets of powers in order to allow for one small difference.

Now, if they want to differentiate the two instances even more on the other hand...

Actually, we'd rather see the mistake undone so Castle has proper time to think it through, instead of losing access to content that's been in place since 2007. Doesn't that strike you as the more sensible option, Sapph? Let me use the power of metaphor to drive this point home:

I'm all for irradiating babies, but I want the merits for it. Castle's change here has taken existing gameplay for this TF (and after 3 years, I think it's safe to say that it's the "norm") and raised the bar from "a bit low regarding one facet of the TF" to "only Godzilla and King Kong, standing on each other's shoulders, can touch this bar".

SO yeah, roll back the change. Work on the balance part of it more; put it on Test; announce that you're DOING it so we can help you balance the encounter without ruining the TF as a whole.

@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE

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Yes.

Regular Mitos should have a base Mez value of -3, and if the LGTF Mitos are Lts (I wasn't sure, and assumed Boss-equivalent earlier), they'll have a base value of -2. In order to Mez someone, the sum of all their Mez protection (negative values) and the mag of all the Mezzes on them (positive values) have to be above 0.

So, for the LGTF Mitos we previously had -2 (base) + 50 (mez "protection" power) = 48. This means that they were above 0 already, and were thus held without any outside influence.

Now, we get -2 (base) + -50 (mez protection power) = -52. This means that we'd need a stacked mag 53 Hold on them in order to hold them.


Anyway, since the mez protection power (Resistance) applies the same value to both instances of Mitos, it's not plausible that the "-50" (actually +50) was meant to make the LGTF Mitos easier to hold.

That's what brought this whole thing up. Mitos were perma-holding themselves, but the healing power was still set to execute while they were held. So it got fixed that they could no longer use the power while held.. but Castle *also* fixed them so they no longer permaheld themselves. The debate now is exactly what hold mag protection they're supposed to have, because the general consensus is "mag50 is unrealistic unless you expect us to run with nothing but Controllers and Doms".

I really, really like the solution of "locked door, find the key". Excellent idea. As far as the problem and the fix.. there are a lot of times that a series of seemingly unrelated events combine to form a catastrophic failure. In real life this has lead to the Gulf of Mexico being flooded with four million gallons (or barrels? I can't even remember anymore) of oil, threatening wildlife and fishermen's livelihoods. In the case of the green Mitos.. a specific Task Force in an online game is basically unbeatable unless a specific undesirable tactic is used. The same thing happened with the uber Regen.. remember when you could spend three hours pounding on Mako in the STF and still not kill him? When you needed two rads and a sonic just to finish the TF? I do.. and it got fixed. I agree that this particular bug is annoying, if something made the ITF unplayable I'd be upset too. All I'm sayin is.. it's not the end of the world. The people who are slinging mud at Castle and "poppin a 'tude" or whatever need to relax. If your "fun" from this game hinges on ONE specific task force, and if not being able to do the ONE task force ruins the whole game for you.. it's time to move on. If this is "the last straw" for you, it's time to move on. It's a game. If you're getting this stressed out about it, you're missing the point. I'm not speaking from a high horse here, I pulled my website off the net, closed down my livejournal to all but about ten people, and have reduced my presence on the internet by about 80% because it just wasn't fun anymore. When it stops being fun and starts to cause you stress, you need to evaluate just why you're doing it. I play City because the Fun outweighs any annoyances I may have (which are few and far between, but do exist). The teeny enhancement screen text annoys me, my power tray moving when I zone annoys me, rubber banding and lag annoys me.. but the game is still overwhelmingly fun for me. So I keep playing.

I totally agree that pets and temps shouldn't be required for a TF. But again I think Castle gets it and will fix it.

I absolutely agree that the "fix" was not done in the best possible manner (or even, in a "good" manner), but I don't see the point in the fury I'm seeing in this thread. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, it needs to be looked at and fixed properly, and I think Castle pretty much indicated that he was going to ask around and get this done. I don't know how the chain of command works, but he may have had to get permission to put the current change to live (and the permission-giver didn't realize the ramifications either), and now he has to get permission to change it again or roll it back. He may be working on it *right now*. So I do agree that this wasn't executed well, but I disagree with the bitterness and wrath that people are shoving at Castle.. just seems a little short sighted and mean, to me.

Are you sure about the numbers? Wouldn't it mean that one Controller is enough to hold a green Mito during a Hami raid? My last Hami raid was too long ago, but I think I remember that we needed to stack multiple holds to stop green Mitos. And wouldn't it mean that LGTF Mitos were never able to heal themselves or other Mitos? Something they actually did.

What if Hami Mitos were -3 (base) -50 (buff) = -53 and LGTF Mitos were Hami Mitos with a lower base (-2 instead of -3)? They would have been -2 -50 +50 = -2 before the "fix" and -2 -50 -50 = -102 now. I have no clue to what the original numbers are, I'm just guessing here and trying to include what I have seen and experienced during Hami raids and LFTG runs.

No, he is saying he will get around to fixing what he broke at a later date.. Maybe when he revisits COP....