Live Patch Notes - 5/12/10
By
Abraxxus,
Posted on: 2010-05-12 10:47 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Originally Posted by VileTerror
Castle, is it possible the mission writer actually _intended_ for the Green Mitos to have -50 Hold Protection? Could that possibly have been the specific mechanic employed to fully simulate that Hamidon was in a weakened state?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
No, that's not possible.
First of all, to the best of my knowledge Mitos in the LGTF are only weakened by being a lower rank than the ones in the zones. They otherwise have exactly precisely the same powers (the nucleus is a different story). That lower rank (they are basically Lts in the mission, but a special mito class in the zones) does alter the strength of powers like attacks, but the attacks themselves are the same power. So whatever the design intent of the "weakened Hamidon" was, it was implemented as a redesigned nucleus and a scaled down set of the same mitos. This means the implementation intent of all the mez protection powers must be the same for both the standard and the weakened mitos, because they are the same thing. That's probably the real source of the problem: if the design intent was for the weakened hamidon to require a much lower level of mez magnitude than the trial version, they should have made two entirely different mitos. As it is, they are currently linked together. My guess is that when the encounter was designed, the Healing Mito was originally set to have mag 30 protection to mez (it still does for things like sleep and stun). And then they decided at some point to increase the hold protection from 30 to 50. At that point a sign error was introduced. Something worth mentioning is that protection powers are actually *negative*. When you run a protection power, it actually in a sense *debuffs* your mez attributes. If you have mag 10 hold protection, the power is actually *reducing* your hold by 10, or applying a -10 to hold. The meaning of the mez attributes is that if they are greater than zero, you're in that mez state. So negative is good, positive is bad. My guess is that at some point someone accidentally adjusted the hold protection by typing a "50" in there when they should have typed "-50." This cannot possibly be by design, because it almost never makes any sense for something to hold itself unless something else is supposed to come along and free it eventually. Even if you wanted something to hold itself as a weird containment buff for controllers, there's no reason to apply a mag fifty hold to yourself, because there's no difference between applying mag 10 and mag 50 to yourself, again unless you're trying to overcome someone else's protection buff (and nothing I'm aware of can come along and buff Hamidon's mez protection). And if I was worried about that, I would apply mag 9999, not 50. There is just no way that was done deliberately in this case. They'd be doing it to both versions of Hamidon, and there's no good reason to do it at all. |
Pre i17, the only difference(besides rank) between "permaheld" LGTF green mito and raid green mito was that LGTF greens not needed to be held in order to do damage to them. Other than that they were fully functional even in "permaheld" state. They would heal other mitos and hami, and would spam their damage attacks the same way raid mitos would.
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Ahhhh, makes total sense now. Thank you. (I have done less than 5 LGTFs total ever, and have done maybe two Hami Raids since i7. So.. yeah, not so "up" on how they work anymore.)|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Myriad, the green mitos have super high damage resistances if they are not held. Holding them drops their resistances so they can be defeated much faster.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
And people are upset because we again have tweaks being made to the game without any patch notes or testing process. Some people take hours to get to the 'weakened hamidon' mission and then hit a brick wall. On test, that's acceptable. On live, that's really unfair.
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But moot point atm, as expected Castle has said he's fixing it this very afternoon, and bringing the hold back down to a reasonable level.
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Just to confirm it happens to me too
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Originally Posted by Avatea
Forwarded to the relevant team. Apologies for the inconvenience.
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Thelonious Monk
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A Caliban's Invincible power gives them 15*Melee_Res_Boolean mez protection.|
Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune
You might also want to take a look at regular npc critters with mez protection toggles, specifically Calibans and Gardvords of the Trolls (these are the only ones I've noticed so far). Once they activated their toggle I was unable to mez them.. even after stacking successful holds. To me.. that is unacceptable on a Lieutenant rank critter, 3 successful hits with my hold and he was still beating the crap out of my buddy..
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At level 15, Melee_Res_Boolean for an Lt is 0.206, giving them 15*0.206 = 3.09 mez protection. Base Mez for an Lt is -2, so a stacked Hold of 7 or more would be sufficient to hold them. That's no more than 3 Controller Holds (2 if you get the critical Hold on at least one of them).
Basically, it doesn't seem like you actually managed to stack 3 holds on them. That's not surprising, since the low Mez durations (and generally lower Recharge) at low levels makes it hard to stack mezzes.
Edit: It should be noted that they also seem to get 5*Melee_Res_Boolean Hold Resistance, i.e. 103% @lvl 15. This would roughly cut Hold durations in half, thus making it significantly harder to stack Holds.
Maybe it's a bit harsh to have both Mez protection and Mez resistance at such low levels...
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They still can. They have several powers that are shut down by being held, including one which grants them massive Resistance and Regeneration. Their PBAoE Heal, though, ignores holds (and will continue to do so.)
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Originally Posted by Stargazer
As others have mentioned before, the Green Mitos could previously heal despite being held. A Controller would also have significant difficulty maintaining a stacked Mag 54 on a target with 50% Mez Resistance.
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Actually, I dropped it to 10.
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Originally Posted by Castle
I don't disagree.
I'll be reducing the Green Mito Protection to 15 later this afternoon...no idea how long it'll take to get to the servers, but there it is. |
Thanks, Castle.
It takes no small amount of guts to admit to a mistake and fix it.
To err is human, to forgive divine. To admit error is even more sublime.
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My grav, ice, and fire controllers thank you. |
Originally Posted by Castle
Actually, I dropped it to 10.
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Instructions on how to distract Television with a Degaussing Wand and a Dr. Aeon plushie will follow shortly.
I'll have to run my dominator some again. I noticed that last time I played her this week I noticed Lost Anathema Lts seemed to be overly resistant to holds.
Good work changing the Mitos Castle. I don't like a certain AT to be required for an TF/SF just like I don't like an AT being excluded from one.
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Originally Posted by Stargazer
A Caliban's Invincible power gives them 15*Melee_Res_Boolean mez protection.
At level 15, Melee_Res_Boolean for an Lt is 0.206, giving them 15*0.206 = 3.09 mez protection. Base Mez for an Lt is -2, so a stacked Hold of 7 or more would be sufficient to hold them. That's no more than 3 Controller Holds (2 if you get the critical Hold on at least one of them). Basically, it doesn't seem like you actually managed to stack 3 holds on them. That's not surprising, since the low Mez durations (and generally lower Recharge) at low levels makes it hard to stack mezzes. |
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Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Castle
Actually, I dropped it to 10.
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Wow. I went from 291 rating this morning to -158 right now. Apparently time for me to bow out of the thread.
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That's definitely a huge improvement.|
Originally Posted by Castle
Actually, I dropped it to 10.
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It's still going to be somewhat hard to Hold them though.
Assuming you mean that you set their Resistance power to give Mag 10 Hold protection, you're still going to need to stack Mag 13 Hold on a target with 50% Hold Resistance in order to hold them.
While that's definitely doable on a Controller/Dominator, not all Controllers/Dominators will be able to do it, and other ATs will have a hard time doing it. So, it's still going to require some significant Hold power on the team to be able to do it (not sure if that's good or bad).
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Depends on what you're talking about when you say "mistake".|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Thanks, Castle.
It takes no small amount of guts to admit to a mistake and fix it. To err is human, to forgive divine. To admit error is even more sublime. |
If you mean the fact that the mitos on the LGTF had a 50 mez protection, well, I could kinda agree. But Castle probably wasn't thinking of the LGTF encounter design when he fixed the problem of them perma-holding themselves. He just saw that something wasn't working as it should, and corrected it. And he has since reduced their mez protection to a level much more in line with the capabilities of a single team.
Now, if you're talking about him making it so they're no longer perma-held, then I'd respectfully disagree. A bug is a bug, and bugs need to be fixed. But since this particular bug had been indirectly aiding players for who-knows how long, folks got in an uproar after it was fixed. That's trying to have it both ways, in my humble opinion. To not fix (or revert) a bug which breaks intended design and gives players an advantage is tantamount to giving players permission to use exploits to cheat the system. So in that sense, Castle did not make a mistake.
Edit: While I'm quoting you, Flea, I'm actually using "you" more in the general sense. I'm not really singling you out, but your post gave me a jumping off point.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
Just did LGTF on Union on a PuG team consisting of:
Brute
Blaster
Defender
Defender
Defender
Corruptor
Scrapper
Scrapper
Not a single Controller or Dominator. One of the Defenders was a pure Empath build, so that's really seven attackers.
We powered our way through the resistance and regeneration of the green mitos regardless, without using any special nukes or summons. It's weird when Honoree is weaker than a green mito. XD
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Join the ranks of those who disabled the rep system in protest against the abusers of the system.
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Originally Posted by Sapphire7
Wow. I went from 291 rating this morning to -158 right now. Apparently time for me to bow out of the thread.
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You'll need 7pts plus the base of their class; 2 for lts, 3 for bosses -- I couldn't remember if difficulty sliders changed their class or not, so I erred on the side of "boss level" for purposes of the post.
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Originally Posted by Stargazer
That's definitely a huge improvement.
It's still going to be somewhat hard to Hold them though. Assuming you mean that you set their Resistance power to give Mag 10 Hold protection, you're still going to need to stack Mag 13 Hold on a target with 50% Hold Resistance in order to hold them. While that's definitely doable on a Controller/Dominator, not all Controllers/Dominators will be able to do it, and other ATs will have a hard time doing it. So, it's still going to require some significant Hold power on the team to be able to do it (not sure if that's good or bad). |
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So, Mag 7 from the Resistance power then?|
Originally Posted by Castle
You'll need 7pts plus the base of their class; 2 for lts, 3 for bosses -- I couldn't remember if difficulty sliders changed their class or not, so I erred on the side of "boss level" for purposes of the post.
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I'd think that most Controllers (at least the ones that bother to slot their SIngle Target Hold) would be able to manage that (Mag 10 needed to Hold an Lt with that power).
First off, thanks Castle.
You're the rook that rocks!
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I agree with all that you said before this, but I just wanted to say that I've thought the same thing about how people tear into the devs sometimes.|
Originally Posted by Sapphire7
...
In fact I think the mods let people tear down the devs more than they'd allow for/of a regular forum user. But moot point atm, as expected Castle has said he's fixing it this very afternoon, and bringing the hold back down to a reasonable level. |
I don't mean it as a knock against the mods either. And, honestly, it's partly stuff that comes with the territory of the job, I suppose.
Some people communicate far less... respectfully... than others. In the end, most often, I suppose they mean the same things, they just don't communicate it quite as nicely.
That doesn't condone it (In my book), but ah well...
Hopefully the Devs can always keep in mind that we love what they do so much... the negative just stands out.
As an artist, I know how the negative feedback can wash out more positive feedback if you let it.
Would be nice to not get jumped on for every little mistake you may make... But... The masses can be unforgiving. Toss them a shiny and they'll soon forget though.
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Originally Posted by Castle
Actually, I dropped it to 10.
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@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Basically reiterating this--|
Originally Posted by Ideon
Just did LGTF on Union on a PuG team consisting of:
Brute Blaster Defender Defender Defender Corruptor Scrapper Scrapper Not a single Controller or Dominator. One of the Defenders was a pure Empath build, so that's really seven attackers. We powered our way through the resistance and regeneration of the green mitos regardless, without using any special nukes or summons. It's weird when Honoree is weaker than a green mito. XD |
I just finished LGTF with 7 attackers and 1 empath.
It took around 1hour 42mins I think it was, There was no controller or holders within the team.
Only 2 members kept dieing, the rest hadnt died once.
Really, it all depends on who is within your team, but it proves that this can be done, and is not exactly impossible. Only a little harder then it was once before. But isn't that what we are constantly seeking within City of Heroes?, A challenge??.
Also its good to note that the team was a PuG collected from SBH channel in Union.
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That's good to know!|
Originally Posted by Newty
Basically reiterating this--
I just finished LGTF with 7 attackers and 1 empath. It took around 1hour 42mins I think it was, There was no controller or holders within the team. Only 2 members kept dieing, the rest hadnt died once. Really, it all depends on who is within your team, but it proves that this can be done, and is not exactly impossible. Only a little harder then it was once before. But isn't that what we are constantly seeking within City of Heroes?, A challenge??. Also its good to note that the team was a PuG collected from SBH channel in Union. |
So, just try and get the word out to people to change the tactic for that encounter... Full out assault.
If that PuG group was able to, that's pretty reasonable.
Not saying some teams may not get stuck though, and that does stink.
Of course, I've seen way too many groups of people/players ready to give up when I'm like, "Wha??? C'mon!! Let's adapt!! We can do this!!"
And, sure enough, we pull through.
As much as many say they want greater challenges... I've seen way too many groups bail at first signs of a challenge. Funny, ain't it?
Anyway, none of this is to say that the change was bad and/or shouldn't be adjusted.
I'm just pleased to hear results of successful PuG LGTFs in the current state.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Much better! |
Originally Posted by Castle
You'll need 7pts plus the base of their class; 2 for lts, 3 for bosses -- I couldn't remember if difficulty sliders changed their class or not, so I erred on the side of "boss level" for purposes of the post.
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Thanks Castle, I knew those Praetorians couldn't keep you locked up forever! ;-)
-D
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Back of the envelope calculation:|
Originally Posted by Stargazer
That's definitely a huge improvement.
It's still going to be somewhat hard to Hold them though. Assuming you mean that you set their Resistance power to give Mag 10 Hold protection, you're still going to need to stack Mag 13 Hold on a target with 50% Hold Resistance in order to hold them. While that's definitely doable on a Controller/Dominator, not all Controllers/Dominators will be able to do it, and other ATs will have a hard time doing it. So, it's still going to require some significant Hold power on the team to be able to do it (not sure if that's good or bad). |
Level 50 Lt Health: 855.1
Max Regen: 4.0088
Total Regeneration at the cap: 57.132 h/s
Resistance buff due to passive defense: 70%
Total damage required to match regeneration: 57.132 / (1 - 0.7) = 190.44 dps
Total damage required to defeat LT in seven second window between mito heals**: 190.44 + 855.1/7 = 312.6 dps
So basically, I think Castle's "unkillable unless held" statement is probably more appropriate for the raid version than the LGTF version. Unheld they can still be taken down in quick order by a team of damage dealers in theory. At level 50 a damage dealing character should be able to reach at least 100 dps in a team. Holding the mito cuts the difficulty by more than half, but its not unbeatable unheld.
(In a raid, its different because the mitos become special boss-but-better entities: the same calculation generates 2179 dps to neutralize regen and 3300 dps to defeat a mito in seven seconds. That's quite a bit higher, even with a lot more raiders).
** You don't have to kill them that quick, but if you can you can definitely overpower any heals that come your way. Its mostly a simplification for the calculation.
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awesome, thank you very much castle, now while we're on a the roll of fixing fixes, about PvP....
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Originally Posted by Castle
Actually, I dropped it to 10.
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Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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For a PuG, our one was probably better than the average one, so that probably helped.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
That's good to know!
So, just try and get the word out to people to change the tactic for that encounter... Full out assault. If that PuG group was able to, that's pretty reasonable. Not saying some teams may not get stuck though, and that does stink. Of course, I've seen way too many groups of people/players ready to give up when I'm like, "Wha??? C'mon!! Let's adapt!! We can do this!!" And, sure enough, we pull through. As much as many say they want greater challenges... I've seen way too many groups bail at first signs of a challenge. Funny, ain't it? Anyway, none of this is to say that the change was bad and/or shouldn't be adjusted. I'm just pleased to hear results of successful PuG LGTFs in the current state. |
I would probably recommend slightly reducing the resistance and regen of the green mitos for teams without the ability to hold though... as it is, AVs will fall faster than a single green mito (unless you have exceptional timing to have everyone's damage spike at the same time).
Ideon's Paragonwiki page
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Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
2) Ram it in there with (seemingly) no regard to actual gameplay
Get bug report: GreenMito is broken
Look at it and see it is broken because it's powers are going off even when held.
Look at hold protection, realize it is perma-holding itself.
Fix that to match original design doc.
Fix Cast Despite Being Held issue.
Test that it uses powers when not held
Test that it stops using powers when held
Check in changes.