Speed Boost? Yes/No
The argument that you shouldn't play Kin if you don't like speed boosting doesn't really hold merit. SB is a nice buff but it is far from being anything but the icing on a cake after Transference and Fulcrum Shift. Once you recognize that your team should never have endurance problems again after Transference, you realize that SB is giving a 50% recharge buff to everyone. That's not bad...
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For one thing it covers any members of the team who either through build choices or a lack of IOs may not actually have gallons of recharge.
For another, quite a large amount of ATs and Builds can still benefit greatly from an additional 50% recharge reduction.
It also goes beyond seamless attack chains, and allows more frequent use of long recharge (and usually devastating) powers.
People want SB. When you broadcast "kin lft" they expect it.
Assuming equal skill, why should they take your kin without SB, over another kin who has it?
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
As Local and Mental mentioned I wouldn't kick a kin without SB from the team, but I would make a note and not invite them again. A kin is expected to have and use SB; it doesn't take long to do and it makes a huge difference in the team's efficiency. As an example I just finished a Manticore TF and we had a kin who was efficient about keeping everyone SB'd, popping Fulcrum and blasting away in the downtime. We finished the TF in just over an hour in part because of the buffs from the kin.
Bottom line is that it's your character to play as you see fit, but I personally wouldn't invite you a second time, and if you list /kin in your team search description you WILL have complaints if you don't have and use SB. |
Pretty much sums up my opinion on the issue exactly.
For one thing it covers any members of the team who either through build choices or a lack of IOs may not actually have gallons of recharge. |
For another, quite a large amount of ATs and Builds can still benefit greatly from an additional 50% recharge reduction. It also goes beyond seamless attack chains, and allows more frequent use of long recharge (and usually devastating) powers. |
People want SB. When you broadcast "kin lft" they expect it. |
Assuming equal skill, why should they take your kin without SB, over another kin who has it? |
Other than that, one should take into account that a Kin who isn't SB the entire party every two minutes isn't either caught last to the next spawn or isn't busy throwing SB all over the place during combat. Which is not to say that such a thing happens to Speed Boosters every fresh spawn, but at the same time, you'd be a liar to pretend it didn't. Instead, my kin is always at the battle, ready to throw out Fulcrum Shift and drain the endurance of key targets. My Kin is throwing out AOE's and contributing to killing the spawn even faster so that we can truly know what it is to steamroll. Given a steamroll either way, why should I take a power I don't enjoy?
But, honestly, I probably wouldn't join your party in the first place, and I don't mean that to sound rude, we simply have conflicting goals. You want SB, and I don't want to give it. I don't see why we should make a big deal out of not wanting to play with another, other than we both think each others desires are idiotic.
For the proponents of SB, I have to ask, have you tried *not* having Speed Boost before?
Besides that, if you were really good, you wouldn't be casting Speed Boost *during* combat, you'd be casting it inbetween. |
For the proponents of SB, I have to ask, have you tried *not* having Speed Boost before? |
But is that extra benefit really *needed*? |
Again, I don't understand the appeal in going slower for the sake of going slower.
Which is great at low levels, but by the time you have transference everyone should have a competent attack chain that does not require SB to be utilized. |
Meanwhile in the real game, many PuG players tend to have end issues even at level 50, and most if not all builds can benefit from extra recharge and/or endurance.
Someone of my equal skill wouldn't have taken SB as they recognize that it is mostly a time sink and only useful in a limited number of situations that usually involve poorly designed characters. |
It's really ridiculous to see people trying to argue SB is useless. We're talking about a 50% recharge and recovery buff. People use one pool selection, pick three powers and use two slots to get that same recovery. People use another pool selection, pick one power and use two slots to get (roughly, averaged) that same recharge. People spend hundreds of millions, if not billions, on IOs to acquire the same effects on their builds. If the argument is "omg you are all idiots and I'm so much better than all of you", state it so rather than hide behind SB bashing. It's just ridiculous.
LOL *beats dead horse* most of the people in the game are SB whores. A kin should not be expected to take SB the same way AM isn't expected on a rad...Both powers are awesome but a rad would never get kicked for not having AM. A kin would get kicked or banned for not taking SB.
Someone of my equal skill wouldn't have taken SB as they recognize that it is mostly a time sink and only useful in a limited number of situations that usually involve poorly designed characters. |
Am I right?
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I expect AM from a rad as much as SB from a kin, even more so as it benefits the rad himself so even selfish players should have no reason to skip it.
As for kicking/banning (banning? wtf) players for lacking particular powers, never seen it. I can understand it's much easier to claim people who disagree with you are evil elitists who will kick players and eat puppies rather than reply to their points, but I doubt it actually happens all that much ingame.
It's one thing to philosophically not see a need to buff teammates, its a fallacy to say that someone of "your equal skill" (whatever that means)
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Myself would not have taken SB, so the question is already flawed. Which prompts me to re-acertain my position in some cheeky response, rather than give me the more obvious answer of "you wouldn't" which would infer that I believe SB is at all a necessary power.
The overly difficult part about proving any sort of point in any direction is that it requires a Kin, one with SB and one without, of exactly equal levels of skill to run the exact same mission with the same group and record the completion time of the group on that mission. Then make different group with these kins and keep running tests like this until an overall consensus can be achieved.
As I'm not going to do that, You instead we are stuck with "SB is the best thing ever because I said so" or "SB is not that great because I said so."
My own personal experience, from having SB and getting rid of it, is that SB is not necessary and that not having it allows me to enjoy my Kins much more thoroughly, which is kind of important to me when I am spending my free time.
I actually dislike being SBed between fights, as for a split second while you're SBed the runspeed buff goes off ; while in combat I'm going to move much less.
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Is anything really needed in this game ? I don't think so. Taking an extreme example, you could get to level 50 never training and just using brawl. Would that be entertaining ? Maybe for some, not for me. |
Again, I don't understand the appeal in going slower for the sake of going slower. |
If we're speaking about theorical perfect teams, ideally everyone should be a Fire/Shield scrapper and spam SC, imho. Well, ideally nobody should team as the best way to get maximum rewards-per-time is solo. That doesn't sound too much fun to me though. |
Also Shield Charge is broken, and is stated as 'being looked into.' That and Fire/Kin totally pwnz it, yo.
Meanwhile in the real game, many PuG players tend to have end issues even at level 50, and most if not all builds can benefit from extra recharge and/or endurance. |
That's cool and all for the almighty leet skilled player you are, but for the rest of us commoners with poorly designed characters, SB is a great buff useful in the vast majority of situations. |
It's really ridiculous to see people trying to argue SB is useless. We're talking about a 50% recharge and recovery buff. People use one pool selection, pick three powers and use two slots to get that same recovery. People use another pool selection, pick one power and use two slots to get (roughly, averaged) that same recharge. People spend hundreds of millions, if not billions, on IOs to acquire the same effects on their builds. If the argument is "omg you are all idiots and I'm so much better than all of you", state it so rather than hide behind SB bashing. It's just ridiculous. |
People are going to do all of this regardless of whether or not I have SB. Since they've now apparently risen up from the commoner status you gave them only moments before, I have to further question why I need to SB them when I can provide them with benefits that greatly overshadow it with the rest of my powers while simultaneously increasing my personal enjoyment and effectiveness.
And for the record, I've already stated, quite clearly, that I do not wish to be on teams that need SB to fix their builds any more than I wish to be on teams than think they need a Heal0rz. If it's not clear, I do not think people of these mentalities have the necessary intelligence that I would deem enjoyable to be around.
Though I do admire your rather direct and nonsensical need to insult people you just entered into discussion with. Bravo, your lack of tact shall be remembered for the ages.
Warkupo still doesn't seem to grasp there are not just attacks with recharge timers, but VERY potent buffs and debuffs on large recharge timers.
I bring up: Perma Heat Exhaustion. Argue how that is not good.
Or: Enough +rech to put Fortitude on EVERY team member.
I've seen people kicked for not having SB. I wouldn't do it, but I've def. seen it done.
It's obvious that having the buff is to more advantage to the team than not having it. But that doesn't mean he HAS to take the power.
When I played my first kin (and emp), it took me awhile to learn how to balance timing between attacking and buffing. During this time, to avoid being a buff bot, I just picked one or two players that would benefit the most from the buff and just focused all buffs on them. Later on, I got so it wasn't such a trial to buff and attack, and then I did more to buff the whole team.
Triumph Lurker: mintmiki 50 emp/archer
basically, if you see a miki on Triumph, it's probably cute and it's probably me.
Huge thanks to cuppamanga and all the folks in the mac help forum for prolonging my borrowed time on this game.
The highest level character I ever deleted was a fire/kin controller at 36. I deleted the character because keeping up with the demand for Speed Boost on teams was dull and unpleasant, and the controller got to do very little controlling. The speed boosted team would go running off in seven directions at once and expect me to be at everyone's side to renew it if it ever threatened to wear off.
I personally do not like Speed Boost. Any character I am going to play for any length of time is going to be built for endurance efficiency, so that will not be an issue. The run speed is a problem for me, especially when I am on a tanker or otherwise trying to manage PBAoEs. If the kin can keep it up consistently it's not a problem. It's a problem when I am moving normally and am suddenly hit by it, and all of a sudden my movement keys act different than they did a moment ago. The randomized movement gets people killed.
If you do take it, slot 3 run speed just to learn 'em.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Ya I'd kick a kin with no SB, just like I'd kick a mastermind with no pets. I don't get why people play certain sets when they don't take they key powers that define said set.
Late to the party I know....
The question you asked with the OP was 'will it tick off others' and that has been answered.
To me the real question is, do the opinions of those that it ticks off matter to you?
Having never been kicked, kicked or seen another kicked for a build choice, I certainly don't see why anyone would care about what another player chooses for powers.
I have seen people leave a team when others had builds they disliked. I say good riddance. Some people forget it's a game.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
The overly difficult part about proving any sort of point in any direction is that it requires a Kin, one with SB and one without, of exactly equal levels of skill to run the exact same mission with the same group and record the completion time of the group on that mission. Then make different group with these kins and keep running tests like this until an overall consensus can be achieved.
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Having FS active and double stacked works much better with SB than without. It lets your team run to the next spawn faster. It gets their AoEs up faster (because people who claim to be able to function great on their own without +recharge and +recovery do not actually know what speeding through a mission is if they think they can wipe spawns that fast without outside help). FS makes you kill spawn A so fast, that you need SB or else you get to spawn B with some key powers still recharging. Not to mention you will get more Freezing Rain and LR and Forge, etc.
On a moderate to large team, if Kin A uses all the powers they want except Speed Boost, while Kin B uses only Speed Boost, team B will be more efficient every time.
It is your choice how to play. But Speed Boost is really stupid good. You will vastly increase your own reward gain by using it liberally. Making gods of destruction is fun, IMO.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Sure, SB is nice, but kins have many other good powers and not having SB won't cripple the character by any stretch of the imagination, so play what you enjoy playing. Simple as that. There's no point in playing a game if you're not having fun.
So the question is, how many people would it piss off? I mostly won't take it in my final build, just wanting to get the general idea of what others think. |
It wouldn't hurt my build to leave it in honestly, I was just curious the general consensus. |
TCS, I've got two Trap toons at 50 myself. I well aware of their effects. My trappers do fine w/ and w/o SB.
But to inform you, Reasons not to take SB: You don't like buffing every 90 seconds You prefer to deal damage (mind you, this toon is a corr) All valid reasons and fair in point to the person with SB. I have SB on his current build and will try to adapt. I'll see where I end up later on with use |
Just to reinform everyone, I know what recharge does. I know what SB does, in fact I know what most sets do w/o looking it up.
The question was a question of personal opinion on the power. Not "teach me what this does" @Kioshi Sorry my Doms are all perma'd w/o help, so I don't personally see most of your argument as truely valid. IMO those doms need to grind and get perma'd so they don't need a kin. |
For the record opinions are just that opinions. They represent reality for the person offering the opinion. The only way you will get what you're looking for is to play your kin without sb and see how it goes.
If you comeback with "I made this thread to pick the brain of the playerbase with respect to SB".....then why did you start with the back-n-forths?
Very intriguing thread btw.
TL;DR: You are a poopy person to kick a kin for not wanting to be a buff-bot, on normal easy content.
Speed Boost alone doesn't "define" a kin. They still most likely have and use:
Transfusion
Transference
Fulcrum Shift
Last time I checked those are all excellent items to bring to a team. Mind you, I speak only of normal/generic content where SB is just a bonus, and not a make/break situation. Naturally if you are doing a difficult TF or encounter, it's reasonable to expect every AT to use all of their abilties to their max potential to ensure success, kins being no exception. This is where it is very handy we now have dual builds. My kin farmer for instance, doesn't have SB on the farm build, but does on the other build.
Op I'm gonna give you a serious answer and a much less serious answer. It's up to you to decide which is which.
I have an AR/Kin corruptor. I do have SB on him but I tend to buff reactively rather than proactively unless someone has a lot of long cooldown powers. The way I do this is I don't announce whether I have SB or not. Instead when we get into the mission I'll buff those who ask for it and try to keep track of those who dont. Once the initial buff is gone I wont buff again unless we're taking a break in the middle of the mission because of snacks/drinks/bio/whatever or if I notice your end bar getting low. Since I'm also using my other kin powers that doesnt happen too often. Also I've noticed that after the initial buff most people won't remember to ask again. As far as attacking goes I tend to wait till the spawn is close to half health before doing any attacking for two reasons. 1. By that time aggro is firmly established and I am unlikely to become an attack target. 2. I'm a corruptor and scourge is awesome so why waste endurance on attacks on minion/lieutenants before I have a chance of scourge kicking in, my endurance is better used buffing the team and debuffing enemies.
Oh also and this is to this entire topic.
Though to be fair the OP asked an honest question.
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TLR
"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
Ya I'd kick a kin with no SB, just like I'd kick a mastermind with no pets. I don't get why people play certain sets when they don't take they key powers that define said set.
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and if its all about rushing to a mob..use a travel power..if u have end props cos of tht..work the build..if u cant stfu
Do what you want.
You know some will get upset at the lack of the buff. You know some won't notice.
It would make more sense on Virtue, especially if you said everything ((in double parenthesis)).
You also have a second build that you can make your "service toon" and have all the nicities. I have toons I take rec friend and make them able to ghost a mission. My Fire/Rad is that way. She's a regular convenience store.
Im sorry but FS is more a key power then SB..plus with transference SB is useless
and if its all about rushing to a mob..use a travel power..if u have end props cos of tht..work the build..if u cant stfu |
As has already been mentioned the reason people crave Speed Boost is the +Recharge. Transference does not make SB "useless."
Now to throw my two sparklers into this firetrap. The reason people expect Kins to have Speed Boost is they know that 7 people with +50% Recharge can far outperform what the Kinetics character him/herself would pull off by trying to Rambo through as a "damage dealer." I think I saw someone say something about "attack chains" and it actually made me chuckle. That (huge) extra Recharge bonus means that Aim and Build Up and Rain of Arrows and Shield Charge and whatever other scary powers out there are recharging that much quicker, for the entire team. There is nothing a Kinetics character can do to match that level of performance (unless you team with poor players). It's a choice between pretty good damage and outstanding damage.
It's up to you whether to skip Speed Boost, but it really is one of your best powers. Even if it makes you want to chew on a piece of glass everytime you have to cast it.
Most people do not realize that travel in missions eats up a far chunk of mission time. Guess what Speed Boost does besides +recharge and +recovery.
Having FS active and double stacked works much better with SB than without. It lets your team run to the next spawn faster. It gets their AoEs up faster (because people who claim to be able to function great on their own without +recharge and +recovery do not actually know what speeding through a mission is if they think they can wipe spawns that fast without outside help). FS makes you kill spawn A so fast, that you need SB or else you get to spawn B with some key powers still recharging. Not to mention you will get more Freezing Rain and LR and Forge, etc. On a moderate to large team, if Kin A uses all the powers they want except Speed Boost, while Kin B uses only Speed Boost, team B will be more efficient every time. It is your choice how to play. But Speed Boost is really stupid good. You will vastly increase your own reward gain by using it liberally. Making gods of destruction is fun, IMO. |
On that note, the /Kin SBing everyone is almost assured to come in last, with the party arriving at different intervals if you buff after the fight, or the Kin will be doing drastically less damage if you do it during. Assuming argument 1, the party will arrive at the spawn at very different intervals and have to wait for the Kin to arrive, or just go in without him and do drastically reduced damage in comparison as they wait for him to arrive so he can use FS and move the team along.
Furthermore, SBing people seems to have the adverse effect of what you are implying based on my own interaction with the power; I usually notice most of my team run into a wall shortly after application and then defiantly challenge the wall to it's perception of self for a good 30 seconds before backing up... and running into a DIFFERENT wall.
In contrast, the Kin who just doesn't need to worry about SB is usually at the spawn first or at the same time as everyone else. He is now able to immediately utilize FS, and then immediately move on. The team stays together almost the entire time.
I'll mention it again, just so I can stop getting this explanation, I'm well aware of what recharge does. I even commented on it's usefulness. The point is that with Transference and Fulcrum Shift your team is buffed to such a high degree that you do not need your powers going any faster. You will be wiping spawns before everyone has cycled through their attack chain. Fulcrum Shift is that stupidly powerful.
But let's try to get some numbers into this otherwise very opinionated thread. (Note to self: Just do math first. It's always going to be required, so you might as well not kid yourself.)
Fortitude was one of the powers I heard mentioned, and for good reason. It turns whoever it's cast upon into a tank in their own right. While I might question the need for the Empath's little dambuff spell when compared to my mighty, sexy, and charismatic Fulcrum Shift, it's none the less a good buff. It's not super model material, but I wouldn't mind sitting next to it at the beach.
The formula for recharge is:
Recharge Time= Base Recharge / (100% + buffs - debuffs)
Fortitude, when 3 slotted for recharge come back at 30s. With a duration of 120 seconds, that means it can be kept up constantly on 4 people. That's not bad.
Math: 30.1s = 60s / (1 + .99)
The .99 being the enhancement value we get from 3 slotting with recharge. Now then, let's get some Speed Boost going on that character and watch that Fortitude really take off!
Math: 24.09s = 60s / (1 + .99 + .5)
Er... 24 seconds? That's it? Okay, so we can still only buff four people. We certainly aren't keeping the entire team fortified. SB Hasn't really helped us at all. But sixty seconds is still a fairly short amount of time, let's take a look at what it does to a long recharge power like Adrenaline Boost.
Adrenaline Boost has a 300s recharge, which can be brought down to 150.7s with a recharge reduction value of 99%, or 3 rechredux enhancements. Let's add SB!
Math: 120.48 = 300s / (1 + .99 + .5)
Alright, we shaved off a good 30 seconds this time. Unfortunately the buff doesn't last long enough for it to matter a whole ton, we'll still only be able to put it on a single character. However, that means the character being Boosted in this manner will only have 30 seconds of downtime where the buff isn't being applied to them. That is "not bad".
Heat Loss, (3 rechredux enhancements) will go from 180s to 144s.
Also, 90s (the common recharge for Build Up/Aim and others) will be reduced too 36s from a recharge value of 45s (3 slots blah blah blah)
Why is it that we do not see a massive performance increase unless we go beyond 60-90s? Recharge has what is called ~diminishing returns~ in that the more of it you add, the less response you get for it. So adding 50% recharge on top of powers that already have it really isn't going to do as much for us as we'd like to believe. While we do see some marked benefit on very long recharge powers, it is still by no means suddenly allowing them to be spammed all over the place. The enhancement they gain from SB is "not bad", which is definitely a far cry from "the best buff ever". For low recharge powers SB isn't really doing enough to warrant its' use, and while you might argue that not everyone has rechredux slotted into their powers, I might also argue that I shouldn't have to conform my build to players who don't know how to build theirs.
As your character engages in being level 50 the amount of characters that have enough recharge to fit their needs is always going to continue increasing, making SB continuously less useful. A "Good" team, or even just a competent or sucky one, isn't going to need SB for the large majority of their powers as Fulcrum Shift will provide all the necessary omgwut that you will need. That the Kin can *also* solve your endurance issues while simultaneously neutering a key target should be some kind of criminal. Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost, and Heat Loss simply can't compare in the sustained potential Fulcrum Shift alone can offer.
People not playing Kins because they don't want to SB everyone for 19 seconds (still max) every 2 minutes is a terrible shame when the answer to their problems is obvious and still so incredibly viable. As it is, SB ranges from "not bad" at lower levels and then continues to be more detrimental as you move on.
It's your character, but keep in mind that it's a fact that most of the playerbase will expect a kinetic to have and use SB... that 50% RECHARGE buff for all 7 of your teammates will make far more contribution to the team's kill speed than anything else you may accomplish in the 15 seconds every 2 minutes it takes to keep SB up.
Take it or don't, but remember that you will be justifiably criticized for not using it as a kinetic.
Unless everyone on the team is at the recharge cap they WILL benefit from having SB.
Giving everyone on the team another 50% recharge will have more effect on the team's kill speed than anything else in your set except possibly for Fulcrum... and Fulcrum won't help the ranged characters. In a typical team only Scrappers and Tankers will reliably get the Fulcrum benefit... EVERYONE benefits from the 50% recharge.
Ah well, there's no point in continuing this discussion so I'll leave you guys to your arguments.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I love SB to bits. It makes most toons that little bit better to play. Although to be fair it's rare to team with a kin who consistantly keeps you buffed.
Would I be ticked off if we teamed and I saw you didn't have it? Nope. Maybe a little dissapointed but pal it's your toon and you should pick the powers that go with the concept in your head. The biggest priority is that you enjoy playing him/her and there would be very few non standard toon builds that can't add something to a team.