< < < DEAR DEVs: A letter from the Base Builders > > >
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Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-05-01 08:49 in Base Construction
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This is true. Are the items of power removed from it? From what I understand, it's been completely reworked, right?
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Cathedral of Pain is active once again and must be run through the SG computer.
Not much for base building but at least it gives folks another reason to use the base and gives the hero SG computer a purpose beyond cosmetic. |
The Items of Power are now awarded randomly and individually instead of to the SG. They last 7 days and then expire. But the IoPs are essentially the same ones. Additionally, completing the CoP and choosing an IoP as a reward grants the coveted Power liberator badge.
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Positron hinted that they are looking at Merging the SGs/VGs so that heroes and villains can be in the same groups. I really do not see the point in this myself, unless good sides and bad sides no longer exist.
And if they are going that route, they may as well make powers Le Carte like in MA when making enemy groups. That would at least give us blaster tanks!
However, the merging won't really affect the bases themselves, so still no love for us. 
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OK, none of this makes sense. |
Originally Posted by American_Angel
Positron hinted that they are looking at Merging the SGs/VGs so that heroes and villains can be in the same groups. I really do not see the point in this myself, unless good sides and bad sides no longer exist.
And if they are going that route, they may as well make powers Le Carte like in MA when making enemy groups. That would at least give us blaster tanks! However, the merging won't really affect the bases themselves, so still no love for us. |
First, Positron has said that they're looking at making bases easier to deal with for side-switchers, not necessarily that they're merging the bases so that heroes and villains can be in the same group. This means either everyone gets all teleporters and you don't get dropped from your team when you go to your base from an alternate-side team, or they're opening up bases for tourists to visit the team leader's base when on an alternate-side team.
Second, even if they did allow bases to merge and permit all four alignments into one base, isn't that choice better than no choice at all? You might not want to mix your peanut butter and chocolate, but other people do. Some people want to allow, say, Rogues into a hero base and Vigilantes into a villain base. As long as there are permissions which allow us to be permissive or restrictive as we like, who cares?
Third, what the heck does that have to do with powers? At this point, at least half of the (non-mastermind primary) power sets are proliferated, and they've indicated that they intend to get the rest done as soon as the have the opportunity to work on it (IE, probably more in issue 20 and onwards). You can't make blaster tanks on blue, corrupter brutes on red, or even defender stalkers on yellow, so I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
Finally, nobody said we were going to get any "base love" in GR. The only thing that would affect the bases themselves is being able to get all the teleport beacons, and that'll mess with some of the design layouts people have (personally, I have no idea how I'd fit another four teleporters into my hero base, but I could manage somehow). However, that's a totally different topic than any of the above three points.
I don't mind if you want to go off ranting - and in some cases, I have sympathy for it - but at least try and have your rants make some sense.
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This was the comment that Positron made in the Razer Q&A:
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Now, the question was clear, and the answer seems to address the question... |
[Comment From tomzak tomzak : ] can heroes and villains be in the same super group? Positron: Not yet, but we're re-looking at how to make that happen, because we know a lot of you are asking for it. Don't want to break the game to make it happen though |
BUT as many of us have learned by now, interpretations can get skewed... IOW, I suspect Cende's interpretation might be closer to what Posi was intending to say.
We shall see... we shall see.
Oh... and...
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| mix your peanut butter and chocolate |
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Yeah I made a pitch for the relook in closed beta exactly along the lines we've been talking about:
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But then I lost heart and turned pessimistic:|
Originally Posted by Fire_Away
It's time for a relook of SGs/VGs/bases in a GR world... even if you are going to insist on the hard and fast "rules" regarding no cross faction alignment make up (no mixed hero/villain groups and no heroes entering villain bases and vice versa).
The market merge has already resolved the base storage issue. Base telporters to both the Rogue Isles and Paragon City would do right by SG/VG "tourists" and would facilitate the soloist retaining his or her base after switching sides. I thought the stated goal at HeroCon on this was to "accomodate as many players as possible". How about it? |
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
And unfortunately, the reverse is also sometimes true (we are told things that, for whatever reason, don't pan out). I keep wanting to trot out Posi's declaration at HeroCon that the devs were going to accomodate as many players as possible when I specifically asked about SGs and bases in GR. It sure doesn't look to me like that objective was met... but repeatedly bringing that up hasn't so far changed what we ended up with either.
There's like zero indication so far that this has any champion or priority at all (and believe me, I'm sold that it should). |
You are absolutely spot on as usual Impish Kat... it's best just to wait and see what happens (but I can't resist shooting off anyway
... thus the Fire_Away moniker and target avatar).
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
To be completely honest I'm torn between "Why bother even posting in the Base Builders Forum, when it's obvious that the devs aren't going to do anything with bases?" and... "ZOMFG!!! Look what they did to PvP!!!! Do we REALLY want those same people looking at bases?!?!?!"
Either way, posting in this forum is a waste of time. The devs aren't going to do anything with bases any time soon, and if they do we won't like it. The changes won't be for our segment anyway. Remember, the devs deliberately encouraged Mad Scientist and others to spend a lot of their time coming up with huge lists just so they could then ignore those lists.
Yeah, remember when I13 was supposed to have big base changes? And then Posi's post: "It's so big we had to split it into two Issues!" Funny how neither of those issues had any of these massive changes for bases. The huge base revamp they were talking about just went quietly away. They wouldn't even answer any of our questions about it. They just ignored our posts like they weren't even there.
The devs ignored the base builders forum for years, we couldn't even get them to admit that this forum existed. Then Sunspot, or whatever his name was, posts a thread talking about some changes. Then he got fired, or whatever happened, and now the base forum is back on perma-ignore.
I don't know why we're even wasting our time posting in this forum at all anymore. I'll tell ya what: screenshot this post and save it, cause I'm gonna make a prediction. Here goes:
We won't get any love for bases in 2011 either.
Well I give my base some loving.
Enjoy your day please.
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You dirty, dirty boy.
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Originally Posted by BashfulBanshee
Well I give my base some loving.
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The best way I can respond to this is by quoting a post I put in another thread:|
Originally Posted by Cende
OK, none of this makes sense.
First, Positron has said that they're looking at making bases easier to deal with for side-switchers, not necessarily that they're merging the bases so that heroes and villains can be in the same group. This means either everyone gets all teleporters and you don't get dropped from your team when you go to your base from an alternate-side team, or they're opening up bases for tourists to visit the team leader's base when on an alternate-side team. Second, even if they did allow bases to merge and permit all four alignments into one base, isn't that choice better than no choice at all? You might not want to mix your peanut butter and chocolate, but other people do. Some people want to allow, say, Rogues into a hero base and Vigilantes into a villain base. As long as there are permissions which allow us to be permissive or restrictive as we like, who cares? Third, what the heck does that have to do with powers? At this point, at least half of the (non-mastermind primary) power sets are proliferated, and they've indicated that they intend to get the rest done as soon as the have the opportunity to work on it (IE, probably more in issue 20 and onwards). You can't make blaster tanks on blue, corrupter brutes on red, or even defender stalkers on yellow, so I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Finally, nobody said we were going to get any "base love" in GR. The only thing that would affect the bases themselves is being able to get all the teleport beacons, and that'll mess with some of the design layouts people have (personally, I have no idea how I'd fit another four teleporters into my hero base, but I could manage somehow). However, that's a totally different topic than any of the above three points. I don't mind if you want to go off ranting - and in some cases, I have sympathy for it - but at least try and have your rants make some sense. |
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Originally Posted by American_Angel
Actually, everyone, during one of the recent Q&As, Positron said that they were considering merging SGs and VGs. They are "looking into it" and said it's an option if they can make sure it does not "break the system".
So it's possible that those beacons could actually become active in the future. The True Question Is this the right thing to do? While the benefits would be awesome (Prestige generated by both heroes and villains), if the game no longer seperates the two, is it truly a "City of Heroes"? In all my years as a comic reader, I never ones saw a base shared by both the good guys and the bad guys. Yes, I've seen bases taken over by one or the other, but not shared. And if they take it that far They may as well do away with archetypes altogether. I mean when you think about it, why do a persons power sets determine if a person is a hero or villain? Shouldn't it be a persons actions? Consider mutants. If they are born with the ability to turn invisible and fight, why does society view them as villains? Isn't that a form of racism? (in a fictional environment of course; I don't want people thinking I can't tell the difference, lol) Even worse, if persons have those certain abilities, up till now they were forced to become criminals...so in a way, Paragon City birthed it's own enemies through prejudice. That hasn't really changed even now. The new zones are a seperate system from paragon, so it doesn't remove the prejudice. |
And frankly, if a hero, for example, turns bad...he or she SHOULD NOT have hero priviledges in a proper society.
Is it really so hard to decide on one faction or the other? Certainly, right now, we all know the consequences. We make those decisions based within those consequences.
I don't see why CoX should blur the lines between right and wrong...even if it is convenient to players.
And as to this being a convenience for "switching" characters:
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tomzak : can heroes and villains be in the same super group? Monday August 16, 2010 4:49 Positron: Not yet, but we're re-looking at how to make that happen, because we know a lot of you are asking for it. Don't want to break the game to make it happen though Monday August 16, 2010 4:49 |
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Originally Posted by American_Angel
And if they are going that route, they may as well make powers Le Carte like in MA when making enemy groups. That would at least give us blaster tanks! |
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Originally Posted by Cende
OK, none of this makes sense.
[lots of things of substance... well phrased as always] I don't mind if you want to go off ranting - and in some cases, I have sympathy for it - but at least try and have your rants make some sense. |
I think the term you're looking for is "a la carte", AA.
All kidding aside, if nothing else, it would be nice for every issue to include at least 1-5 new items for base-builders. Of course, I'd want every issue to have at least that many (ok... if I'm really honest, double that) of costume pieces first.
Here is the biggest problem I see with bases...
I am in a SG, the leader of that group has a very nice base, all of my toons are now a member of that SG and all the prestige I earn goes to the improvement of that base. There are at least 10 other players doing the same thing in that group (May be more, but these are the ones I run with).
so out of 12+ players, only one really owns the base. I would like to build a base, but the benefits of the current base far outweigh the prospect of building my own from scratch, in fact it would be down right stupid to do something like that.
so I have started building a base on the Red side, which I rarely play, that group will have a minimum of 5 confirmed players.
so there really is a small portion of players that do things other than just use a base. if there was a way to add personal space, then that would open up a whole box of goodies...
someone upstream mentioned concerning personal spaces as to "how do you find your room?" make one generic door that says private keep out, or an elevator door that opens up to your room, just like with the portal to get to the base in the first place.
how far I get with my red side base depends on how much time the other 5 will spend on the red side away from the well equipped base on the blue side.
anyway that's my .02 worth from a relative newbie to the game
Idea. And I'm sure others have said it before, too.
What with all the microtransactions going on now...perhaps it should be suggested to the Developer in charge of bases to run it by the marketing crowd to sell a base item pack. Hell, with the sheer -amount- of base items that's wanted by people, and also found ingame already...they could make several packs. Anyone else behind this idea? I wouldn't mind paying a bit extra for that. Hell, I wouldn't mind paying several times for all the base items that /could/ be added.
I think the issue with a base builder pack is that ONLY the SG base builder needs it for every member of the SG to benefit.
What would be a more sensible option in my opinion would be to add the aforementioned personal space, but have it accessible from the existing base portals on the list.
I mean who wouldn't want a personal base, whose features could include
- wardrobe that acts as a tailor.
- per person storage (limited to perhaps 5 items to still discourage hoarding)
- Story arc souveniers as placeable items etc.
The idea being that players purchasing the pack get all the little things people have wanted for ages, those purchasing the pack that are SG base builders get new tools to add to bases, but those who don't still get to enjoy making their own personal space.
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Well, most of the "BB pack" ideas that people have presented are largely Decorative items, so that should not be an issue at all.|
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero
I think the issue with a base builder pack is that ONLY the SG base builder needs it for every member of the SG to benefit.
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I mean, there are already a number of character personal items that can be put into bases.
If they do make it so it adds a bunch of stuff to your Personal Items list, though, I would like them to move the "Add Personal Item" button to the main editor under the "add room"/"add style"/"add item"/etc buttons, and change it so folks that don't have general base editing privileges only see that button.
It would be a pain in the kiester if you had to keep switching back and forth between the base editor and the "add personal item" editor.
Heck, while they're at it, move the Upgrade Plot button there too. Having them all as essentially separate editors is just clunky.
-np
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We all get frustrated. Some folks have the ability to express themselves in writing, others punch walls. Hooray for the edit button.
There's a small list of features that I'd like to see added. I've expressed them elsewhere. That should be sufficient. Entitlement is an.....nevermind.
Here's what's crazy. If I go to a restaurant and buy a meal, but there's no salt or pepper, if the food is good, I'm still going to eat the food. The manager of the restaurant knows this. So, why put the spices out there? When things slow down, they will load the table with spices. And, from what I've read, a larger portion of attention will be paid to SG bases. They are planning it now, so implementation should be within the year, I'd expect. Probably not close to the number of changes we would like, but better than nothing. Patience is a virtue.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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Bummer, I was sort of with you in the beginning but it got worse as you went on. Your analogy was appropriate but not like you think (You and I may just eat the food but plenty would call the staff on the carpet on the spot for something like no salt and pepper on the table both publicly and privately Who do you think would end up with salt and pepper quicker?). |
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
We all get frustrated. Some folks have the ability to express themselves in writing, others punch walls. Hooray for the edit button.
There's a small list of features that I'd like to see added. I've expressed them elsewhere. That should be sufficient. Entitlement is an.....nevermind. Here's what's crazy. If I go to a restaurant and buy a meal, but there's no salt or pepper, if the food is good, I'm still going to eat the food. The manager of the restaurant knows this. So, why put the spices out there? When things slow down, they will load the table with spices. And, from what I've read, a larger portion of attention will be paid to SG bases. They are planning it now, so implementation should be within the year, I'd expect. Probably not close to the number of changes we would like, but better than nothing. Patience is a virtue. |
Also, can I get a reference on what you have read that indicates a larger portion of attention will be paid to SG bases and that we can expect something within a year (especially something other than decorating that would make bases more functional for everyone)? Cause I've been at this awhile and could sure use some good news for a change. I really think a patience proverb to a gang that, by and large, are some of the nicest in the game (yours truly excluded)... who have waited for years (to the point where many have flat out given up) is sort of lacking.
I get that we are fortunate to have bases at all. And I've lauded some of the people responsible (like Pohsyb) in person and in public. But I will not just be quiet, or apologize for wanting to make "a good thing", with massive potential, "great". I salute those who have respectfully and persistently stuck with this cause... in the face of little to nothing in return for quite some time.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
--snip--
*ignoring the passive/aggressive condescending sarcasm* |
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Here's what's crazy. If I go to a restaurant and buy a meal, but there's no salt or pepper, if the food is good, I'm still going to eat the food. The manager of the restaurant knows this. So, why put the spices out there? When things slow down, they will load the table with spices.
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"When things slow down..." Are you serious? In case you hadn't noticed, things do not slow down with this game. The devs are constantly working on the next issue, if not the next 2 issues. The only way we are going to get any attention is to flag down the wait staff and call a little attention to ourselves.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
And, from what I've read, a larger portion of attention will be paid to SG bases. They are planning it now, so implementation should be within the year, I'd expect. Probably not close to the number of changes we would like, but better than nothing. Patience is a virtue.
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As for your admonishment for patience, take another look at my opening statement in the big list of consolidated base concerns. The list is based on another list made in 2008. And the 2008 list was from one started in 2007... I don't recall seeing you post in these forums, maybe you just lurk. But you need to do a little more lurking before you start throwing "patience" in our faces.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Heres my theory on it Impish Kat (I didnt want to assume the nickname you use lol)
First I think that Ukasa is referring to the Committee. Now that is in motion, we have heard from Ocho on the subject, gears are moving and it will be finished soon. BUT i think the confusion was that this meant that devs may be currently working on things. Thats not true as far as I know. And here's why I think they have left it alone for so long:
The bases are like a Jenga block 3/4 of the way through the game (trying to continue the analogy game). Yes, its wobbly and yes its rough around the edges, but there have been some fairly impressive moves from the players due to skills in their stacking... Jenga blcoks that is.
Basically its like this, we have gone far beyond the expectations of the devs with our use of the bases. It has gone unchanged so long that we have come up with extremely imaginative ways to make it new. I feel the devs don't know what to take out and what to put in because the probability of the whole thing crashing down is extremely high. Thats why we wanted to form the committee, to take all the necessary steps and precautions to not only see things added to the bases but also to make sure to keep the posterity of what we already have.
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-Where have you read that bases are going to get a large portion of attention?-
Check this out.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=213333
tell me what you think.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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I fail to find the magic words:|
Originally Posted by Niviene
MrHassenpheffer - What does the future hold for base editing?
Certain restrictions in base building are being adjusted and/or removed so with that comes some freedom and more options, from an editor perspective, the degree of control and fine-tuning you have in placing items. So thats one thing. Ive seen a lot of creativity with the way players use one object (or hundreds of them) to act as another so my other plan is to provide more base objects, more textures, and more themed sets. Suggestions? |
large
portion
attention
I also fail to find the magic words:
this
next
year
Feel free to review the quote as many times as necessary to confirm that the above words are simply not present.
Reading this response from War Witch straight, to me sounds like she's talking about the removal of Raid Pathing from Bases (ie. "certain restrictions in base building are being adjusted and/or removed"). Also note that while she says she'd *LIKE* to do something to augment Bases, there is no firm commitment of any kind or substance to do so. To be fair, such lack of firm commitment is par for the course, due to marketing restrictions (ie. do not promise what may not eventually get delivered).
I'm not saying you're wrong ... per se ... just that any cause for optomism seems a tad ... unsupported by evidence, shall we say?
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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You mean this bit?|
Originally Posted by MrHassenpheffer
-Where have you read that bases are going to get a large portion of attention?-
Check this out. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=213333 tell me what you think. |
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MrHassenpheffer - What does the future hold for base editing? Certain restrictions in base building are being adjusted and/or removed so with that comes some freedom and more options, from an editor perspective, the degree of control and fine-tuning you have in placing items. So that’s one thing. I’ve seen a lot of “creativity” with the way players use one object (or hundreds of them) to act as another so my other plan is to provide more base objects, more textures, and more themed sets. Suggestions? Unknown_User - So will your leadership have any affect on features like base raids, citadel of pain, items of power, a secret identities system? Will the work on features like these be scaled back in favor of new content? We’re working on some of that, yes. Given certain limitations of our systems, some features will get love and some won’t. |
As for my own thoughts in retrospect:
- Is she actually crediting the removal of raid pathing as a conscious move specifically to make editing more creative? As if they did it on purpose to achieve that result? HA! It was NOT. It was purely a by-product. In fact, I remember a red name telling us in no uncertain terms that it would most likely be a temporary situation, but that we should enjoy it while it lasts.
- Then she says she wants to give us more decorative options.... What? like putting beakers on racks that we didn't want beakers on?
- Then she asks for suggestions... seriously... after all the threads we've had on that subject over the years?
- I have no doubt that her answer to the second question is in regard to the re-vamped CoP trial. Which is now one of the more controversial TFs in the game. Yeah. We really shouldn't go there.
- She does not say they are going to put a "large focus" on bases.
- She does not say they are looking into improving the functionality of bases.
- She does not say they are looking into improving the base editor.
- She does not say they are working on fixing any of the bugs that we have lived with for years.
- She does not say they have read any of the lists or threads that the community has put together over the years (instead, she implies the very opposite).
- She definitely does not give a timeline for accomplishing anything for bases.
Oh yes, and the latest accomplishment of correcting the swapped prestige costs for Small Steel Lab Tank and Steel Alembic Tank..
Color me unimpressed.
If the Committee can accomplish everything they set out to, I will gladly applaud their efforts. BUT... keep in mind, Ocho is a community rep, he is NOT a Dev. Only a Dev can truly give us real answers.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
K.
Guess I'll just enjoy whats left until shutdown.
Ciao.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Ok, I have to ask. What is this "committee" that I've seen mentioned several times in this thread?|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
If the Committee can accomplish everything they set out to, I will gladly applaud their efforts.
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I monitor the dev and community trackers daily, and I haven't seen anything about any committee.
Cathedral of Pain is active once again and must be run through the SG computer.
Not much for base building but at least it gives folks another reason to use the base and gives the hero SG computer a purpose beyond cosmetic.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad