< < < DEAR DEVs: A letter from the Base Builders > > >

It's a hoax created to keep the busy bodies busy.

Expect interference.

There's no question that M&G's and HeroCon's are fun, cordial, and the devs are very accessible. They are also very nice people. That's the good news.

However, I've found one must really manage expectations when it comes to dev commitments to do anything in any kind of specified timeframe (say even a year) from these types of discussions.

The pvp crowd is a perfect example. It's great that the PvP'ers had their say in Boston (as they have elsewhere). But I haven't seen any resultant PvP changes despite some very strong (good, bad, and ugly) player "input". In fact, if anything, the forum pvp "rant" (edit add: I use the term "rant" loosely because I believe many pvp'ers make an excellent case for change) is as strong as ever.

If you do happen to hear anything about actual base development occurring (and when) I hope you will share the info. Otherwise, it's the usual friendly banter ("We are blown away by what you basebuilders have done." "We'll see" etc. etc.).

Oh, absolutely, Fire_Away.

That's all I am interested in... Having the discussion, hearing their thoughts, finding out if there is any info to be shared now.

The best you can ever really hope for is planting a seed (making that connection and getting someone to understand and possibly agree with you on a certain point).

Actual development takes a lot of time. So, if nothing is being done currently and nothing has been done already, no one is going to see actual large in-game changes any time soon.
We've all seen that we do have some low hanging fruit options that would go a long way. So... there's some hope.
I'm, honestly, mostly eager to get some clarification on WW's vague comments about future base improvements.
I'll be happy just getting some clarification (Good or bad) on that (good, very much more so preferred!).

I would start off with one simple question:
"What is in developemt right now for bases?"

Because anything not already in development is likely a year or more away.

i19 in on the horizon, and already I'm seeing some possible flaws. That means they'll be spending time fixing them.

I think Praetoria is the perfect place to introduce a new base editing system. Design a new one for those characters, and later make the switch in all areas.

OR, they could commit to adding 3-5 decorative items per issue, and fixing a tech issue each issue.

I, personally, would love a Base Editor design contest.

Electric, I hope you'll report back here what you hear and learn.

I really do understand your feelings reguarding bases. And we are in no way saying that we are better for this job than anyone else. The thing we are focusing on is having a formal commitee so that there is constant attention on the concerns of the base editors. We are also coming at this not from the angle of anger, which like i said is totally understandable, but from a sense that there is a need to pay more attention to the most creative players in the game. Also, i am not posting to try to convince you or calm you down in anyway. Just trying to let you all know where we stand.


Now for the fun part, as far as competitions go... that is actually one of the main goals for the group. Because that is something that we can do in the here and now while we try and figure out where to start on the base itself.

This is not a new idea, we understand that. But we have drive that we want to use for the benefit of everyone.


and all of that from a cell phone. My thumbs hurt...

I guess I'll just dump this post in this thread... Even though I don't agree/jive with the angry tone of the OP!

Alright, I'm sorry for not posting about this sooner.
If it were as positive as I would have liked, I probably would have, hehe.

Here is the short summary: The things she mentioned in the Q&A were more immediate wishes and things she was looking to do as soon as possible (her "personal crusade")... But ran into the wall of the Code Team's focus being needed elsewhere (repeatedly). So, they have not been working on those improvements beyond looking into them and figuring out how and what... the when continues to elude them (And us).
The rest of this post is probably pointless now, hehe.


And, for the record, I had some great casual conversations with War Witch and this was the only subject that I wanted to make clear that I was asking for sort of semi-official commentary on (Plenty of other things came up, but that was just fun conversation).


War Witch so very much wants to work on bases... It is one of her "personal crusades" and she doesn't seem to be kidding about that at all.
After she became Lead Designer, she looked into fixing up the base editor, researched it and talked to the coders about it.

From what I understand, she was aiming to add new items and really seems to want to allow more than 90 degrees rotation for items (That was one thing she expressed right of the bat)... And I think that the Coders basically said that this was all possible (Certainly the adding new items and such), but the base editor has some major back-end issues AND... You can't be certain what sort of problems things like that can create as you add more code to them.

So, I think that the major point is that they are pretty adamant about fixing up the code to get rid of those back-end issues before they draw attention to the base editor and risk breaking things more and/or put the work into adding items to a messy system (As opposed to fixing the code up and adding new things to it more cleanly).
That is my understanding of that.

Here is what I thought was good...

She/They seem to be interested in fixing the existing editor and not replacing the base editor (As some of us have wondered).
She did not say this outright, so don't take that as a quote or a promise of any sort.
I honestly don't think they'd want to mess up the base builders by swapping out the system entirely.

The BIG PROBLEM for us is (Exactly as we have known it to be)...

All of this requires the CODE TEAM.
The code team is a vital and limited resource that can only work on so much at a time. And it is long work, as most of us understand.
The code team has been occupied by new zones.. and new game mechanics and such... And, as we know... Bases stays put on the list and it gets passed over (and over and over), as other things -deemed higher priority- get the focus of the code team.

The good is that it is a constant on the list...
The bad is that it is a constant on the list...
She told me she wants to get to them.
She was sincere.

I told her that I understand that, because, if even *I* had to choose between say... Power Pool and Epic Pool Customization orBase Editor improvements... I'm not so sure I'd go with Base Editor first (I might, but I'd have to think on it... And if I considered the general player-base vs just my personal wants, I'd probably go with the Power Customization).

I told her about our consolidated lists and extensive feedback and that we could really benefit from some love.
I recommended that, if they could without too much concern of breaking things an without too much extra work, give us some new items, art or low hanging fruit things... it could go a long way.

So... All in all... We are where we've been and nothing substantial has been done to get us anywhere else...

BUT... the current Lead Designer does want to get to it.
She promised content and RP elements and she's delivered on that.
Let's hope that having her in the big chair results in bases getting their due love.

The reality of picking and choosing and being able to spread the wealth in regards to what the code team works on is indeed a giant limitation (Why can't we just say, "Computer... add new base art and allow me to rotate this piece of furniture by 38 degrees, counter-clock-wise"? Instead, we have to save hordes of Oompa Loompas from Vernicisous K'nids just to have a force of workers, who then have to actually take the time to do the actual work. And there's only so many Ooompa Loompas we can feed!)

Thank you Electric-Knight for the feedback. I find it overall disappointing but not at all surprising. This has always been a question...not of "lists"... nor player "organization"... nor of dev understanding of need but... of development priority. Quite frankly, I fail to see the situation we are in now as much different than the situation we have been in for quite a long time. Perhaps that is because I've heard other, friendly, well meaning lead designers (and other devs) express their personal interest that "one day" we will see development results... but it just hasn't panned out.

If the devs are smart (near term), they will do as you suggest and provide at least some token change that will at least gain some appreciation from the base building crowd. If not, then it will just be status quo.

For me personally, I think it's time for me to back away from this effort. I have zero interest in decorative "creative" contests. Also, it certainly appears the chance of functional change is, at best, on a distant horizon (after an editor fix... whenever that occurs). I need to follow the lead of some of the "old timers" in the base game and just move on.

The reason for overall dev silence to us on this subject should now be pretty clear. There really isn't much to say other than "You guys don't rate as high as other stuff." Message received and understood.

Just to Update, I have recently been in cummunication with a red name...I won't say which one because I'm not sure if that person would want me to.

But here is the response to my base builders concerns:

Well ok base builders, why don't we all send in a petition to support saying we want new content for bases. Tell them we have made our pleas on the forums and direct them to Impish Kat's post
Consolidated Base Concerns, 5/2010
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=220395. The reason we are sending you this petition is that we have done what you have asked and used the forums, but we still have not received an answer from the devs and that was our understanding; If you post on the forums the devs read them everyday and we would get some type of response. I mean it can't hurt right? I am sure the only thing we will get back from support is an email saying post your concern on the forums because the devs read those everyday, but atleast its a new approach to an exsisting problem.

for tl;dr version, see bottom of post.

I'm in agreement with most all here that bases/supergroups have not received their fair share of focus of late.

I empathize with the PvP crowd in this respect too. We are both smaller factions of the overall community and continue to receive little to no support on requested features/changes.

As such I understand they, Paragon Studios, are a business, and as such, require a focus to what the majority needs. We, sadly, are not the majority.

If I were to equate our CoH community to the likes of New York City, the PvE demands/needs total a majority of the well-off Manhattan and borough businesses and population. We, my fellow base building/supergroup-minded friends, just like the PvP Community, are stuck in the "Projects' of NYC, by comparison; an existing group of people, but one the overall community doesn't put focus on due to its invariable aspect of its continued existence.

We, like they, struggle everyday to make due with what they've got to get ahead. A small yet fair percentage of the 'Projects' population, through hard work and focused efforts, go on to incredible things (Julliard, Harvard, etc), just as some of our incredible base builders and Supergroup/Villaingroup leaders have made incredible bases and group-focused functionality. A rather unfortunate larger majority of our 'Projects' population though, continue to struggle in the existence that is our neighborhood, eaking out a living day to day, such as our base builders continue to do with existing base editing tools and the diminishing support for supergroups.

But there is hope.

The base builder/supergroup community has, and continues, to be a voice in the NYC equivelant that is the COH community. The community continues to reasonably voice their needs of our "Projects"-like existence. Many want to ignore our community and/or plight because it doesn't relate to them, however, we have and continue to have a voice.

As such, like any representation in districts and boroughs and towns, we require one person in a level of exective power to focus our voiced comments and be heard through.

As it is, our devs have tried to place a peson in the position of "Bases/Supergroups" lead, and continue to pull that person to other projects and efforts, leaving us in the wind, as usual.

Although TheOcho has been gracious enough to identify the level of support he can give, and although our "base building/supergroup" community has stayed a consistant voice in the game, we need a focused dev in the spot to act as our representative; one that is not yanked to other efforts; one that has a voice; one that can effectually argue the needs of our community to a level that gets the action we have all so meticulously cataloged hundreds of times over.

I know the majority of the CoH Community recently cried for 'moar content!", and via War Witch and the devs efforts, received what they asked for. With Issue 22 and 23 planning possibly being started in the next few weeks (if not already), NOW would be a great time to get a level of representation necessary for the base builders/supergroup community. A dedicated dev.

War Witch, is this possible? Is this something that can be established and announced at this upcoming Meet & Greet, or must we wait until CoH2 Issue 6 to get the requested attention?

This community's well crafted and detailed lists and requests have been seemingly ignored...can we at LEAST get a dev that is aligned to 100% dedicated effort for our community to at least sort and voice these issues? Please??

tl;dr version:

We need a dedicated and focused (i.e. not yanked to other tasks) Dev for the Base Building/Supergroup Community.

NOW.

I still think an SDK is the way to go. Allow the community the option of developing new stuff and submitting it to the Studio.

Do they have time to review submissions? Well, if they don't have to totally write the code for a new base editor themselves, I'm sure they can make time.

Same goes with other areas of the game.

I remember Freedom Force use to let you develop 3D renderings and such to add to the game. Multiple MMOs allow the community to develop content.

There are some dedicated programmers and artists in our community that remain commited to City of Heroes. The developers should come up with a way to take advantage of that.

I would just like to see the double doors back. As I haven't been playing that long. I did not get to use them like some have. The base I saw that had them looked really cool, and I tried to make them myself but found I could not. sad cause it looked good