Couple of PVP Changes with i17

the pvp revamp only reiterates my point. why do you think control single target holds do enormous damage now, or mezz protection is essentially equalized across all your sacred "archetypes"? we should have seen this coming back when they changed defiance to negate mezz, and now even defenders got MOAR damage in vigilance. not that those are bad things all by themselves, but they agree with the new direction of the pvp game.

This is far from the truth. If someone comes looking for the best blaster build the answer is psi em. Even if the player in question may be the best son/mm ever he would still be better on a psi em. The best is the best for a reason. To think otherwise is absurd. Now mind you we do get a ton of really bad people on psi ems and other fotms but that is user error. And there is no advice we can here to fix bad. And no telling them to be a flying tp foeing grav psi dom or a cage the spike sonic defender is NOT an option.



Literally the only thing that stop a good clean spike is a lightning fast heal + hiber or phase. There is nothing you can do or teach to stop a spike in this version of pvp in zone. In arena evasion still has a place but in zones its no go. To think otherwise is also absurd.




-Damage powers are great and I have never heard mac down play them. The truth is though they are usually great for aspects other than the -damage. benumb and he come to mind instantly and there are others. The only decent aoes in the game are mezzes and ball lightning. And a team spamming aoes could more than likely have dropped a single target or two in the time they managed to mildly antogonize 3 or 4 targets with aoe spam.




Without phase and hiber in zone you will die a lot more than with it. And until pvp becomes about something more than k and d they will be pretty much mandatory. And trust me this is completely on the devs changes on this one. Pre i13 I had a total of 2 toons with phase(both stalkers) and 2 with hiber(one was an ice tank). Post change I have a total of 2 pvp toons without either. And I hate it. I used to play with no 'escape' power and no heals on almost every toon I played regualarly and I would prefer to still play that way. Sadly that is no longer an option and not of my choosing. Unless I want to choose to be grossly more ineffective.





Show me a brute with no taunt that stands in npcs and I will show you the kick button pretty damn fast. Its not hard to take taunt and learn your role. Kinda funny seeing you are the dude preaching role based pvp that you don't even do it right when you get the chance.



Please keep in mind that pvp has absolutley no correlation with pve. And even if it did by that theory super teams that trivalize the game should work in pvp.


The fact you think those roles described there even have to do with pve is very telling, the fact you think it should carry over to pvp is even moreso. Just so you know there are people like Steatoda who are really out there that reinvent the wheel. You could take a cue from such players and look to viable alternatives to the 'in the box' pvp you despise. Just don't think you will shake the whole system at its roots. Its the foundation for a reaon, its tried and tested and proven to be effective.




you are aware that all those things don't all necessarily go hand in hand right? There are plenty of skilled pvpers who couldn't make a build to save their souls. There are plenty of teams with great teamwork who don't always win. You seem like you have pugged on slow servers or so infrequently that you don't really understand any more what good pvp and good pvpers are. Maybe you should take a step back and reassess what the real goals of pvp are and what the being successful and good really mean.


All stalker teams would pretty much be a joke and ran as a tie team not as a get a kill and hide team. Once a team for it was made known the other teams would bring forts and the farm would be on.





Then why offer up the suggestion they switch to sub optimal teams in the first place? You gave the impression that if talked into it it would alter the very state of arena pvp. In truth we would get what merc said, lots of ties and super low scores.


Ironically you found one of mine and I am pretty sure a few others peeve with arena. I hate rules that are forced. I think needing to check a box for good pvp is just as retarded someone wanting me to not use inspires. What the high end pvpers use for arena SHOULD be the stock rules for zone pvp. Pure and simple. If I had a vote that is what I would pick. I just kind of boycott the arena for the most part as my own protest against it all.



Now define how someone has fun. Do they ahve fun losing? Probably not. Just because you think its cool to fly around and maybe sorta occassionly disrupt something don't think its what the average pvper is going to find fun. I am something of a disrution specialist and I would only encourage someone to play some of the toons I do if they showed express interest in it. Most of the people who came here to look for help are looking for a very small window of help not enlightenment. They are more than likely looking for help with a blaster a dom a scrapper or a stalker. And newsflash its so they can get kills. Its how it works. Sorry this is a letdown to you but it is what it is and no amount of your revalation will every change it. But fight the good fight, I am sure you need to feel like you are helping the cause to care on.






Its called kickball, happens all the time. We can call happy dahjee fun time if it will make you feel special though.




If you think its as simple as loading up a fotm with loot and getting 8 mouth breathers to be good at arena pvp you are again pretty damn clueless. Get off your duff and go level all these things you pretend so much to know about. And come find out how easy it is. There is a reason not everyone does, because not everyone can. You may end up being the best psi em team blaster ever to play the game, but my magic 8 ball told me to not hold my breath.




As usual fun playing with you dodgy, see you next time teddy bear <3

Not exactly. Because it's easier to get kills, spikes are less precise. Less precise spikes = easier to heal/evade through.

It's similar in effect to the post IO/Veng stacking period. Before IOs and the Veng ban, kills were much easier to get. After IOs, people got more HP, teams started running more res buffers - so targets were harder to kill. At the same time, spikes, in order to get kills, had to be much more precise - which in turn made evasion and healing more difficult.

This

Actually you can use that one power that cancels out travel suppression and then just TP away. Could even snipe someone on the way. It's very easy. See Dahjee's older posts for details.

Obvious Speculation is speculation <- not sure if I got that right.

I agree those changes helped to add to the viability of blasters and defenders in PvP. However I believe it’s safe to say that those changes were equally based on PvE as well.

You can't have it both ways Conflicted... if you're admitting you put no thought into the advice you give and have been handing out copy/pasted replys to everyone the same... then take some responsibility for the staleness of PvP. You are helping to cause this as much or more than the Devs I hope you know. "The best is the best for a reason" you say... and go on to assume this is the goal of everyone who PvPs when its not that srs for all. Any Blaster set/set can hop around getting kills and drops and not dying in a zone and for some believe it or not.... this is perfectly acceptable. You claim to know whats best when the best isn't required. You may PvP only in zone these days, but it still seems you've been 'arenafied' and beleive you're winning something by getting a kill or losing something by dying in a zone.

I have nothing against farmers and PL'ers in PvE... but I doubt their voice could ever influence the whole PvE community. Yet this is basically the type of voice that runs the PvP community here. Again, take responsibility for how such an attitude of Min/Max can have a negative effect on the perception of PvP. Understand that such an attitude keeps a lot of people from trying it. You do want PvP to be better and include more people don't you?? Surely you can understand that we as players can affect such.
Wow I really hope you're not that bad on your Grav/ toons. D-Shift saves lives son. Recall friend can also keep someone from getting spiked among many other Team provided tactics in a zone. Whatever though. /agree to disagree.
I'm sure you'd also like to say how it's impossible for Brutes to zone with their fury bar near full... yet my defense based brute does it so much that people have to ask me if DB/ got a buff, lol. Roles are the same yet the powers used and the approach taken to fufill these roles are not th same."Tauntbot" is your version and purpose of any Tanker/Brute... when such spamming actually creates the opposite effect does it not? Don't peeps try and avoid a tauntbot???? Redefine Aggro Control. I did... why haven't you?
No. Super Teamwork should and does work... and considering we ALL have to PvE our toons in order to PvP, I'd say its pretty hard to believe there is "absolutely no correlation" between the two. Maybe you could elaborate on that one for me.

I believe each AT does indeed have a defining strength and a defining weakness that carries across each possible AT build. I beleive that each strength offers a counter to another AT's weakness in some way or form. This I beleive carries over into PvP by design.

Honestly I think it'd be pretty interesting to see the dialouge and arguements made of what the optimal "no duplicate" team would be and what counters people would come up with. Surely it would add more thinking to the process than what is required when allowed to just stack more of the same with more of the same. Again if it's too much to ask then forget I said anything.

I've never lost in a zone Conflict have you? Sure we've died plenty sure... but what exactly did we lose. Please stop arena'ing in my Zone. If I shared your definition of fun I probably would have quit the game years ago I'm sure. Pew pew pew pew pew pew hib run yawn pew pew pew pew pew pew hide run pew hib snore I won teh zone!

lol. That would make me feel special. You should add the word fuzzy in there somewhere.

Sorry nope. You missed that point by a mile.

Indeed ConFlicted... always a pleasure.

Do you take classes to be this stupid? Because I don't see how it's possible by nature.

When someone asks for the "best blaster", the question is pretty simple. There is a clear decision on which one is currently best, and that is what is answered.

Yes, obviously any blaster can hop around and get kills. But what does have to do with the question?

If someone posts a question asking which number on a scale of 1 to 10 is the biggest number, the answer is 10. It's not up for debate, it's common sense. But with your logic, you would proceed to explain that no, it's not, because number 8 is also a perfectly good number, which can also be used!

No ****, sherlock. Number 10 is still a bigger number than it though. And that's what was asked. Not "can anything be used except psy/em", but "what is the best blaster".

Please take a couple lessons in basic logic.

Dahjee, believe it or not I agree. PVP SHOULD be like that. It should include a wide array of builds and ATS in a team or zone setting that can be effective. You are saying i13 provided us with that scenario and my point is it did not. Just look at what is being played in zones and arena.

In i12 we had a much larger array of build/AT choices that were both effective AND fun to play. Now, we may have the same builds but a ton of them are NOT as effective (by a large margin) as they used to be. i13 took half of PVP success (effective and fun) out of the equation.

This

And this

First where do I admit that. Second I would hardly say my advice is ever c & p. As usual I see you poke around spew out some crap about outside the box and never really help people. I on the other hand offer sound advice on how to get the best out of what people want and what the best options are to be successful.



I do nothing except work with the system given. It has nothing to do with me what that system is. If I did it would be far different. And yes any blaster can get kills. I play an ice dev and do far above what most would think it could do. Now would I recommend it to someone looking to roll a blaster for pvp, no. Would I give my build to someone who had one and share advice on how to play it well if they asked, certainly. This is the difference between me and you, I am honestly helpful you not so much.



Winning is all there is. If I wanted to just play the game for chuckles I would stick to pve. And most people who can't handle pvp because of losing do just that. Yes on rare exception I may paint over that one guy who is looking for the fun. But for the most part people that seek pvp advice are looking to kill alot and die a little. Its the nature of the beast. Glad you found your niche of being 'effective' and thinking outside the box, don't think that its for everyone or even the majority for that fact.



Comparing mine or any of the other regulars in this section advice to plers helping out with pvp is a very odd and wrong analogy.



Min maxing is required to a certain amount. The way you think people should just load in and pew pew and have a good time. Truth is though joe pvper walks in zone on a toon that never gets kbed. He spends the next however long on his **** getting farmed because he doesn't understand how different pve and pvp are. Which one of us between me and you do think this gent should seek out for advice?



Wrong. Surely you should be able to understand this next part I say. I have said often. You can not ever make someone who doesn't have the drive to pvp into a pvper. All of these changes were made in this vein. Making so people died slower and seemed more competitive. The truth of it is regardless of the speed they die they still don't enjoy it. Its not in them. Its not the pvpers fault for this. Its not that players fault either. Certain people enjoy certain things. No amount of coddling and hand holding and spoon feeding can fix them. You either get the rush from it or you don't, simple as that.



That I agree with, we obviously disagree. For the record I promise I know how to use d shift better than almost anyone else in zone. And recall me in zone, I will kick you faster than the brute without taunt.




You didn't do anything, you provided an extra target. You are little more than phantom army in this case with slightly more ai. As for my aggro controls in zones I don't think I really need to worry about it. I have sent multiple zones on multiple server into a rage with my taunting. I have made people post on these very forums about how cheesy it is and rage about me. When you reach that level of aggro let me know.





do we play the same game? Because that is not even close to true.



I believe in santa claus. See what I am saying?



It would add to more ties and low scores. People play to win. Yes we get it you don't. We all know you are a 'special' case.



Two things, one its my zone. Not yours. Second I have won plenty and I also have lost. Its part of the game.



I should.




Oddly you seem to do that often. You should be happy I am becoming more like you.



Much like in pvp, you have no clue when you are losing.




Cheers.

You're on point. That's what I've gathered from his posts as well. Troll is Troll.

rofl

Close, but not on point Max.

I'm not sure if it was your analogy or not, but someone once pointed out to me that no matter what I did to optimize a Yugo... it wouldn't win in a Formula 1 race... or something along those lines. Well very much of my point is that the only Race race is in arena where there i s winner, while Zone PvP is basically a public drive or highway. You can surely put a racecar on the highway and speed superfast everywhere you go... but it's not a race, and the Yugos you past will get to the same destination.

So it's really not lke I'm asking or expecting anyone to say AR/Dark is good. It's the fact too many cling to what's considered best when it is not applicable or needed to be so in many scenarios.

I'm delusional yet you Max seem to think exactly what of your influence to others? Why are you even here if not to try and influence those who read these posts to think of me so negatively among whatever else you add two cents to. Like I told Con... you can't have it both ways.

"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"
"Oh! Sure I can help. What is the best blaster you ask? A Psy/Em Blaster!"

"Man, the zone is filled with nothing but Psy/Em Blasters! Why when any blaster can get kills here?"
"Man it was the Devs and the I13 programming man... The Nu3bers made them do it."
"Well damn man! Don't they know they have a choice!?"
"Dude. I13: There is no choice. Don't you read the boards?"

It's quite reasonable to ask peeps to stop dumbing down PvPers with this nonsense when they know no better. If they are bad this will keep them that way. Keep blaming the Devs and the programming and MiDs DPS report that controls all in PvP... keep waiting on the Devs to make it feeel guuuud for you again. I'll keep enjoying myself and being optimistic and open minded. I'll keep replying to /tells that ask "How do you keep TPing when I'm attacking you???"

Right here.

So you actually think about not thinking about anything else?

Meh, you could do better here. I never really claimed to be here for that purpose on a person by peson basis. I'm quite helpful in game though. You don't have to believe me though.

You never told me exactly what you're winning in Zone whn you get a kill or make it back to base? Please say something as epic the statement above.

I agre. That's far from the truth.

Your 'snip-fu" is getting better at dodging questions and points I see. Exactly where would new PvPers come from if and when perhaps the all controlling Devs and Numbers make PvP more appealing? The Sky? Perhaps you're jusy assuming that at best you'll get your old buddies that quit you long ago to come back?

Haha I get more aggro on my Dom that your simple taunt-Bot could ever dream of. You make meh famous!

Yes, but I don't wanna hurt ur feelins.

lol you can't even reach half of RV. Jump higher.

I am... but we still have work to do. You should consider teaming with me later. together we will win (what?) deh Zone together! lol.

I did make that analogy, so I will expand it to make things clearer. Zone is not like a highway. The goal of zone PvP is still to kill other players, while trying to survive yourself. Hopefully you at least can't deny that. So moving on, arena is like NASCAR, the official racing sport that gets shown on ESPN and talked about. Zone is still racing, but just not totally official...basically some amateurs racing on the streets. It does require slightly different skills, and the amateurs definitely aren't all bad, but there's no doubt that racing a car in nascar takes more skill.

The point is, it's still a race. Your analogy doesn't take that into account. People don't just come to a PvP zone to walk around and get from point A to point B. They go there to PvP, which means killing others while not being killed yourself.

With the amateur race, sure, there is no official score, but when one person keeps losing to everybody, people will start thinking he's bad. Even if he keeps saying that he's really really good. It's still a competition. Just like zone PvP.

I am now oddly compelled to roll up a Psi/EM blaster...

Actually there are a few contacts and tutorials that point out and literally state the goals of Zone PvP in each zone you choose to PvP in. Ignoring them doesn't give you the right to make up one for yourself. I do see the point you are trying to make though. Just sayin.

My PvP defenders could care less about getting kills, and many of my disruption and CC toons as well. Admittingly, if I am on one of these toons and run out of teammates (I don't discriminate between those actually teamed with or not. I play my role regardless) in a zone to support... I usually won't hang around long and I'll switch to a toon that is designed to deal with the situation at hand. Sometines however, I do hang out to practice staying alive.

I'm afraid I just did. However I don't mind pretneding I didn't. (The Gin has kicked in!) My gaming Comp is an hour away.

There IS NOTHING to win in Zone PvP except the zone itself. (see SC and RV) Getting drops and lolrep is cool, but requires being teamed with people who get kills and not just getting them yourself. The only thing gained is clout and perhaps a complementary stroke of one's ego. Both which can be altered and manipulated. When you limit the definition of Player versus Player (PvP) to simply getting a kill personally. You reduce your skill level further than I'd like to say.


Zone PvP requires a completely different approach and defintion of success/skill when compared to arena. The inability to define and label this distinct line has been around long before I13. I welcome any "expert" willing to draw and define that line. We both know that my rep and perceived merit here make it impossible for me to start the debate. You don't want me starting more threads here, lol.


It's not... which is why.