Couple of PVP Changes with i17

Name one thing that was acheived by being willing to work with the devs issue after issue after issue after issue?

OH!...i13...yeah...thanks.

You're wrong. It was a very old change they reversed. Like I6 or something. A change they had reasons for, and all of a sudden those reasons disappeared. Of course, with no explanation.

Again, even with the "bad" community we have now, there is a very clear list of the current problems. It contains very serious game breaking bugs, which have ruined the game for a very long time.

So what do they do? Ignore ALL those problems, and spend time on something that nobody's asked for in like 3 years, because it really wasn't a huge deal. And then also spend time on a brand new feature that nobody asked for EVER.

Why? Why would they purposely ignore what's clearly NEEDED, and spend time on pointless things? Sure, this one time, the pointless things aren't actually bad. That's a surprise, coming from these devs. But just because they aren't bad doesn't change the fact that NOBODY ASKED FOR THEM!!! Instead of fixing game-breaking bugs, they routinely spend time on pointless QoL things. And no, these QoL things aren't easier than fixing the bugs, as was shown to you in posts above.

And the thing is, none of us are surprised at this point. Because this is how they have always been. Very deceptive at best, and completely dishonest at worst. As mentioned, the ONE time ONE developer said how things really were, the next day he was no longer employed.

The player-developer relationship is a two way street. They have treated us like **** since day 1. They deserve the same thing, until they actually do something we ask for. We're the ones paying their salary, not vice versa.

Originally Posted by Black_Barrier Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...

How do you know what they think? The fact is, you don't know what they think. It's what YOU think. We don't know what they think because they rarely communicate with the PVP community. Note: this has always been the case, before and after i13.

That change took place before i13 but yes it was reversed.

That really begs the question:

If you're THAT unhappy with how they run the game, why are you STILL giving them money every month?

They treat you like ****, yet you still fork over your $15 so you can be treated like **** some more?

I'm sorry, but that makes ZERO sense. If you're that unhappy with how the developer team treats you, stop giving them your money and go somewhere else.

You treat them like crap and say: "Fix these problems"......and they don't.

They treat you like crap and say: "Give us money".......and you fork it right over.

Obviously, they're winning.

Thanks for the correction there. I didn't remember exactly when it was, but I knew it wasn't always like that.


I guess I'm done here. Go ahead and insult the devs every chance you get. And complain that they're still ignoring you. I guess the two can't possibly be related after all.

I'll stop trying to convince you that being jerks toward the people that you want to do things for you is hurting your cause.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Because I do occasionally enjoy the game, and +/- $15 a month is not really a factor for me.

I don't hate the game. I hate what the developers have done to it, and most of all, I hate their commitment to zero improvement. If the $ amount was actually significant, trust me, I would not be paying it.

^---- this. That and SWTOR is still ways away. So until then, $15 a month isn't a big deal. Were it to be higher, I wouldn't be playing this game.

That job is already filled. lol j/k. I try though.

Clawsand Effect is making a very simple point. You don't cuss out the customer service rep on the other end of the phone sitting in front of a button that will fix your issue. You don't degrade and disrespect the food server that will be handling your food in a restaurant. You can.... but you shouldn't be suprised when things don't work out the way you wanted them too. The Devs are people too, and they control the game we pay money to play. There are smarter ways to get things changed that acting spoiled and bitter about not getting what we want NOW!!!

I can also see the point made by many disgruntled PvPers. However I have to admit. $15 bucks or not... if I were as unhappy as many of them seem to be or have been about I13... I would not continue to play or participate in PvP.

I can agree that long standing bug fixes should have worked their way up the lists of priorities for the Devs, but realistically I can see that it would be much better to combat ALL of them instead of one or two. Such would likely enrage the PvP community further, and to fix all would likely mean that the time allowed and required to do so would hinder progress of things that we all know is in the works.

I don't like or dislike the Devs. I do trust them to attempt to do what is best for all players in the game to the best of their ability. I can say that I don't feel the core of PvPers in this game share the same "Big Picture" as they do when speaking on changes needed or wanted for PvP.

It's pretty obvious to me that if you approve of PvP and/or I13 changes made... you will not be welcome here on the PvP boards. I'm almost certain that Castle is in this boat and I can understand completly why he and other Devs avoid coming here. People have been so hurt by I13 that no reason what so ever could convince them that I13 worked. The outcome is more important than the intention... which is fair to an extent, but such an outcome is NOT the fault of only the devs.

Revamp is just that. If PvEers went about fighting Hamidon the same way they did before they "revamped" it... It's likely the players would have called it a failure too. Think about it.

Threatning to quit, cancel, or notiflying the person that you are 'also' recording the convo for quality purposes gets results indeed. Just griping and dishing rage on the button pusher doesn't do much though.

Bad analogy. A better one is you go to a restaurant and order your food, pre-paying for it. Then once it's paid for, instead of bringing out the burger you ordered, the waiter brings a plate of feces.

I'm pretty sure most people would degrade and disrespect the waiter in this case.

The difference is...in the real world, after that happened, the waiter would say sorry and do everything in his power to correct the problem. In this game, the "waiter" essentially says "don't like it? too bad. it wasn't even prepared for you anyway, so deal with it."

The devs have absolutely no clue what "customer service" means. This is very clear.

at a buffet, you can pay, go look, maybe taste a few things, and finally spit it on the floor and demand your money back. 9 times out of 10 you'll get your money back. There is no option for that in MMOs so ur guys' analogy is not very good.

So yeah it could be like a buffet. You go in you get some food like pepperoni pizza a baked potato with the works etc. It's not a pizza from italy and the baked potato is slightly over done but things are still dandy. Well you go back for seconds and the pizza has no cheese or pepperoni on it, the baked potato has no sour cream, butter, or green onions on it anymore. You ask the guy wearing the chef's hat, hey what happened to the stuff on the food? He says, since we gotta be balanced and make it that everyone gets the same amount of stuff on their food, the best way to do it is to put zero things on the food there by debuffing the food and your experience. You say WTFF?!?! and ask for you money back but the manager says you already ate so much so you can't get your money back now. As a veteran CoH buffet goer you leave, are unsatisfied, and never look back. As a new CoH buffet goer, you eat with out much emotion and never notice what's really going on.

To be fair though, some people like pizza w/o cheese and a plain baked potato. And Dahjee how the heck did you get 8 red bubbles in ur forum rep with less than 800 posts??

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but expected. Of course we can't expect them to do everything we want. That would be unreasonable, since we're a small portion of the game population.

The main issue, however, is that we're simply not asking for that much. We're not asking them to spend a year of work to implement some brand new feature. We're asking them to fix game breaking bugs, something that should already be their absolute highest priority.

When they routinely ignore bugs that are literally ruining the game, and instead spend all their time and resouces on stuff like adding QoL features that not a single person ever asked for.....well, it sends a VERY clear message. Either they are really the stupidest people in the entire gaming industry...or they don't care about the PvP segment of their game AT ALL. And I kind of doubt that they're the stupidest people in the industry, because the PvE game is very good, compared to most MMO's.

That leaves one answer. They don't give a ****. So in return, I don't think that our actions will have ANY impact on the future of the game. We can call them gods and kiss their feet...or we can call them morons and say they suck.....in the end, PvP will still be an ignored bugfest.

That's how. Please don't ask why.

I think there is way too much speculation in that statement to receive a clear message. I do agree that there should have been fixes by now, but I wouldn't say they are ruining the game. That's just me though.

Let's be real for a moment. The last time they dedicated time and effort to fix PvP we got I13... Who in the world would want to attempt to try again knowing how the PvP community responded the last time? I don't recall many voices that stood out claiming to understand why the changes were made and I think it's reasonable to assume that becasue no one did (loudly enough) that the devs might still be waiting for us to figure it out completely. After all many have been complaining ever since it was released.

If I gave you a screwdriver and you complained that it sucked as a hammer... and I wasn't allowed to actully tell you it's purpose... I wouldn't find a way to make it work better as a hammer no matter how many good suggestions you gave me to make it happen. Another bad analogy I know... but I personaly think it's close to what happened after I13.

The hamidon revamp I mentioned earlier is likely a better example.

Actually alot of people understood what the changes were aimed at doing. We also told the devs over and over that the changes would not do what they wanted. And the people who told them that were right on each and every count.


If as many of you pros(see: dodgy and clawlz) actually remembered what you thought you may talk alot less and realize how retarded you seem to those of that actually know what the **** is going on and what went on. Just saying.

How sure are you on what the devs actually wanted, and what is really going on?

I know a number of bar owners. From talking with them I found out what they do to get rid of people they don't want in their bar, for whatever reason, usually because those people cause problems and make their other patrons uncomfortable.

They can't just kick them all out, because most of the time they didn't actually do anything wrong. But their presence is giving the bar a reputation of being an unpleasant place to spend time.

So what they do is change things about the bar to make those people not want to hang out there anymore. If they know those people prefer rap music, they change the jukebox to nothing but country and classic rock. If they know they like a certain brand or beer or liquor, they either stop selling it, or jack the prices up on it. All in the interest of getting the people they would rather not have there to go somewhere else.

Again, they can't just kick them out, or refuse them entrance, because it is a public establishment, and the people are paying customers. But they CAN make their establishment less attractive to the people that make their other customers uncomfortable.

Maybe the devs are doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Really?

Their stated goal boiled down to "Make PvP more fun for non-PvPers"

One of the biggest complaints about PvP from non-PvPers wasn't the way the powers worked, or even that certain ATs were at a disadvantage. The biggest complaint was people being jerks in the zones.

If that was the thing making PvP not fun for non-Pvers, how do you resolve the issue? Easy.....get rid of the jerks.

But....they're not breaking any rules that you could ban them for, and they aren't really cheating, they're just being jerks. The only way to get rid of them is to convince them to leave on their own. Completely changing the way PvP works is really the only way they can do that without tipping their hand.

The only catch to my theory is: It is completely impossible to prove or disprove any of it. If that IS what the devs are doing, they're hardly going to come out and say so. And if it isn't what they're doing, no amount of theorizing will make it true.

Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

You have obviously never ran a bar. I have, and believe me you can kick anyone out at any time you want. Do you ever have a clue as to whats going on?

Wow.

Not all PvP'rs are jerks, matter of fact the jerk population is in the minority from my own experience. People on Justice have always helped me with answering questions, teaching me techniques, sending me builds etc. Now that I am on Freedom I find it to be a similar situation when I have asked for help/input that is what I have gotten, and not just from my league team. I am experiencing more of the jerkish population but that literally is cause I moved to a server with a higher population period.

Also I used to not understand the aspects of PvP and would get frustrated going into RV for pills or AV's. I took the time to learn about PvP I joined a pentad that Justice radio and the PvPEC had so I could learn about PvP. So if you are going to blame the PvP'rs as jerks then blame all non PvP'rs who enter the zones and cry as being uneducated and uninformed whiners.

There is as much responsibility for the "new person" to PvP to educate himself as there is on anyone else in this game PvE or PvP. As in PvE if you ask for help I think you would get it. To walk into a PvP zone and think you will dominate it your first time there is just idiotic and arrogant, but every time you are killed you can learn from it.

If you think the dev's changed PvP for that reason then you are being more insulting then any of the PvP'rs you are critiquing.

I really disagree here. Although you're idea might have merit (I wouldn't know, I don't run a bar/business like that), I think you might not be seeing one point here:

The devs put a lot of time into the i13 PvP changes. There was big coding changes (Allowing different rulesets for PvP/PvE) requiring resourses to perform. Now, I am not a programming expert so I am not going to even guess how much time was put into i13, but I doubt it was as simple as "Changing the jukebox" or "Up'ing the price of beer"

If getting rid of the jerks was the goal, then they could have just removed PvP flags altogther and state "PvP is broken, we will work on it, but until then its turned off because its an eye sore" - That would have been quick and easy.


I personally think they just ran out of developement time in their i13 changes and haven't scheduled a time to go back. They really built a house of cards with the new changes and when they removed one of the key componenets - The non-spike-code - They really found their system not working as intended.

The non-spike-code was flawed in many ways, but it was a key component to their new system. It was removed without the other areas changed to compensate.

People only care about jerks when they lose. If there's some guy talking trash to you, but you keep owning him over and over, it's not unpleasant at all. The opposite, in fact.

So no, the problem wasn't jerks. It was that some people, through years of practice, were able to be better at the game than newbies. When a PvP newbie could solo an AV but got owned in 10 seconds every time he stepped foot in a zone, he got mad. The devs decided that this had to be changed at all costs, with zero regard for the consequences.

That's how I13 happened. Not because they wanted to drive away paying customers. Because they were willing to, to make a level playing field.

The problem is they were 100% clueless about the game, so they couldn't make almost a single good decision. So instead of the desired level playing field, we got a system with 3 times the problems the old one had. And yeah, there are about half the viable powersets than there were before.

Please note the players you mentioned are only better at being jerks when jerks show themselves. If you actually knew Con and/or Barrier (I don't really know Max) you'd realize they only trash talk loud mouthy players who start spewing off in the first place.

If a player asks for help with a build or PVP tactics then these guys would be the first to jump in and offer helpful advice/guidance and they'd be spot on with their tips.

They don't start the trash talk, they're just better at doing it.

So much truth.