Castle Speaks - Heroes and Villians Can Swap Epic Powers
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-26 08:28 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I really hope that's the case across the board.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I feel that it's safe to say, thanks to a lack of a dead straight answer that brutes, for example, will NOT be getting access to the existing scrapper or tank APP.
Instead, a new hero brute APP will be created. |
I'd much prefer to see new, AT tailored APP/PPPs.
For several reasons really.
It will (hopefully) cut down on accidental overpowered combos, allow ATs to retain some level of uniqueness and will also not pigeonhole ATs into the roles of their so-called "counterparts".
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I don't see why anyone would think straight ports.|
Originally Posted by Hazygreys
I used to think straight port, like brutes to scrappers, dom to controllers, ect. but it was brought up that with the amount of time they've had on this, they will probably make new patron power pools for hero AT and new epics for villain ATs
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Not saying it can't happen. And for Melee toons, it possibly more likely.
But a Troller Epic Pool for Doms? they already get a single taget blast in their Secondary, I don't see them getting another in their epic.
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I'm torn on the idea that they built 10-ish new epic pools. On the one hand, that seems like a hell of a lot of work for a corner case. On the other, it would effectively double the epic options for all archetypes.
I'm starting to think that if they were going to build new, they'd build new epic pools and give them to EVERYONE.
(ed. to clarify: You wouldn't have to switch to get "Brute Carp Mastery" or whatever. All Brutes would have access to it no matter what side they were currently on.)
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Dominators will be a mess. What Controllers get in their APP, dominators get in their secondary. Various Blasters' APP are already represented in their primary or secondary.
Still, should be interesting to see what comes up.
Come on, Devs. Give us hope!
Change Conserve Power in Energy Aura!
...
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I suspect it's done that way deliberately to encourage you to use the "correct" set of Epics for your current side.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
What bothers me about this is what happens when they change a power and have to give out a respec? Presumably you can change back to proper faction to get the correct selection of ancillary power pools, but in the same chat it was said that moving one degree takes approximately one week of work.
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Personally I was hoping they would have APPs for all ATs regardless of alignment and then have the PPPs and new heroic PPPs based on your alignment. That would also allow them to add new APPs without running into the problem of it being unfair to villains since there aren't any new patrons to give out new PPPs.
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So you're saying why not create the new pools but allow the primary side to have access to both the current pool as well as the new pool but then if you switch sides you only get access to the new pool?|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I'm torn on the idea that they built 10-ish new epic pools. On the one hand, that seems like a hell of a lot of work for a corner case. On the other, it would effectively double the epic options for all archetypes.
I'm starting to think that if they were going to build new, they'd build new epic pools and give them to EVERYONE. (ed. to clarify: You wouldn't have to switch to get "Brute Carp Mastery" or whatever. All Brutes would have access to it no matter what side they were currently on.) |
Which would be quite the buff for "those that remain true to their side." Which would piss off those that lose access the moment they become vigilante/rogue. Unless you only lose access if you cross all the way over.
I don't think they're going to allow a brute to choose a PPP pool if they've gone blueside. That would kill the story portion of the PPPs.
But then they will have to add PPP pools for each hero AT.
Hell, I dunno. I'm expecting a cluster#*&$.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I figure for Dominators they'll make completely new APPs. Based on the current PPPs it's a good bet that two of the powers will be the Targeted AoE from a Blast set and the shield power from the equivalent Controller/Defender APP. Other than that they mostly have defensive panic buttons, minor debuffs or endurance recovery powers and there are quite a few places they can draw those from.
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Originally Posted by Tormentoso
Dominators will be a mess. What Controllers get in their APP, dominators get in their secondary. Various Blasters' APP are already represented in their primary or secondary.
Still, should be interesting to see what comes up. |
Almost every AT would require an altered port, access to repeating powers or access to powers they aren't supposed to get mandates this.
ie If you port stalkers with blasters then stalkers suddenly access armors in their new app's.
The smallest revision necessary would be:
brute - tank (ea has conserve power and would need to be altered)
scrap - stalk (caltrops and conserve power repeated)
corr - def (looks fine)
mm - tank (armors would have to be replaced, thunderstrike, ko blow, and oppressive gloom repeated)
troller - dom (this would be a mess, lots of repeating powers for doms picking troller sets)
Access to unaltered app/ppp's probably isn't going to happen, hopefully the revised ones we access still retain the great meta powers that make them desirable and aren't just filled with crap like stalker snipes...
I'm not at all keen about never being able to respec without losing your epics if you have switched sides, but GR sounds like it is a lot of "a buff in one state is easily viewed as a punishment in another". I'm not too worried about it because I'm more excited about opening up new build possibilities.
I would love it if Masterminds got defender epics. I would change my mastermind to a hero and back just for Dark Mastery.
But it likely won't happen that way 
The best way to do it, that just came to me:
If you are a villain, and have already unlocked PPPs, and switch sides, you get access to both sets of APPs. Why would the mace you got from Black Scorpion vanish? How does Scirocco revoke your Mu lightning powers?
Basically, each side unlocks their APPs by default, but then can unlock the other side's by switching all the way over to the other faction, and then keeps them no matter what.
This would add another dimension to side-switching and the idea of "undercover" characters. Establish your hero as a villain in order to steal Ghost Widow's magical secrets, and so forth.
Obviously this doesn't make very much sense for hero APPs, but that's part of why this is a problem in the first place.
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hopefully with power customisation along with that remix
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Yep. I'm thinking they'll do remixes of each sides Epics / Patron pools with an eye on the "No duplication of powers" rule/guideline.
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Ah, good. |
Originally Posted by DarkInvado
I think is this going to spawn a whole new age of hero/villian designing. Let the games begin!
Is there a way to do this now in Mids? Does this change open up a whole new range of possibilities or will the change be negligible? |
So this means that we can keep our Epic Power Pools until we respec.
This is perfect because I haven't respected in years and I don't really see a need to either.
(Holy crap, -128 Rep Points, what the heck happened?)
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I dont think it goes against any storylines, considering every single PPP arc involves getting betrayed by your mentor, why cant we pull some shennanigans? Take the powers and run, yeah know? |
I don't think they're going to allow a brute to choose a PPP pool if they've gone blueside. That would kill the story portion of the PPPs. But then they will have to add PPP pools for each hero AT. Hell, I dunno. I'm expecting a cluster#*&$. |
Im more interested in what the hero PPP's will look like than the villain APP's. Will they just mix together existing powers from the existing PPP's, or will they see new powers? Will the new powers be patrony, or lame crap like focused accuracy (the powers not lame, labeling it a power from a patron as-is was lame...at least call it like...scorpion dead aim or something... maybe make it a cool scorpion-tech looking targetting drone.)
They have a great opportunity with new PPP/APP's and the new incarnate system coming in. I could definately see them becoming the reason to choose a brute over a scrapper or corruptor over a defender and vice versa. Right?
Maybe we're just jumping the gun here. The "new" APP/EPP's might be exactly the same except the devs will just change the names of the powers to reflect new alignments.
Like Blaster APP "Frozen Armor" will have it's name changed to "Evil Frozen Armor" when the blaster switches sides. It would fit the theme of "how can we scroo the playerbase and drive them away from the game even more?" I know I know! Let's make them burn a respec so they can get access to exactly the same powers they already have! Yeah!
Maybe I'm jaded...
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Eh. It would only get changed if/when EA gets proliferated to Tanks and Scraps.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Come on, Devs. Give us hope!
Change Conserve Power in Energy Aura! |
As it stands, it just means Brute/Stalk APPs will not have Conserve Power in them.
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No no, they specifically said that heroes who become villains will have to chose Patron Powers.
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Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
Maybe we're just jumping the gun here. The "new" APP/EPP's might be exactly the same except the devs will just change the names of the powers to reflect new alignments.
Like Blaster APP "Frozen Armor" will have it's name changed to "Evil Frozen Armor" when the blaster switches sides. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No no, they specifically said that heroes who become villains will have to chose Patron Powers.
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/em adds more sarcasm to his previous post.
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Sorry, didn't pick that up.|
Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
/em adds more sarcasm to his previous post.
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I'd suggest you pull a Golden Girl and add
: o
, but I don't want you to get banned.
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My understanding of the Epic pools is that they more or less took one power from each of the other four ATs and built a theme around them. The same was done with the patron pools for villains. So a Blaster Epic, for example, has one Controllerish power, one Defenderish power, one Tankish power, and one Scrapperish power. Eventually they added a fifth power to each one, but that was the original idea.
I think that what they'll do for patron powers will be to take one power from each of the villain ATs (and vice versa for the villain epics), picked to eliminate any possible duplication. So a Blaster will get a buff/debuff from a Corrupter set, a hold from a Dominator set, a pet from a Mastermind set, and some sort of defensive powers from the Stalker and Brute sets.
Then what they'll do is check to see if that matches anything that is already available for Stalkers or Corrupters and port those sets over directly, swapping out one or two powers if necessary.
The resulting sets won't be exactly the same as what is available now, but they will end up being close enough for the most part.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Sorry, didn't pick that up.
I'd suggest you pull a Golden Girl and add : o, but I don't want you to get banned. |
Mmmm, golden girls....drool...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Sorry, didn't pick that up.
I'd suggest you pull a Golden Girl and add : o, but I don't want you to get banned. |
Is that what she got banned for?
What I get from reading Castle's words is APPs & PPPs will not change. The Q that isn't answered is how the devs plan to line the ATs up with respect to changing alignment.
I think the only pairing we can say is 100% correct would be Dominator=Controller.
The other 4 may or may not be so easy to answer. Especially for nubs like me.
In my nub brain, the other 4 pairings are as such:
- Defender=Corruptor
- Scrapper=Brute
- Tank=Mastermind
- Blaster=Stalker
So in a nutshell, it looks like epic pools will not change with respect to powers available. The Q, in my mind at least, is how the devs view each ATs counterpart.
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As others have pointed out, pairing dominators with the controller APP's creates several duplicate powers, a situation that we know the devs have avoided in the past with Tanks and Conserve Power. Among the powers that would be duplicated if doms received controller APP's are Fire Blast, Consume, Power Boost, Ice Blast, Frost Breath, and Fissure. Barring Thorny Assault and Electric Assault, all other dom secondaries have a power that could be duplicated in Controller APP's. Because of the mixed nature of dominators secondary a new APP is almost a necessity.
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Originally Posted by milehigh77
What I get from reading Castle's words is APPs & PPPs will not change. The Q that isn't answered is how the devs plan to line the ATs up with respect to changing alignment.
I think the only pairing we can say is 100% correct would be Dominator=Controller. The other 4 may or may not be so easy to answer. Especially for nubs like me. In my nub brain, the other 4 pairings are as such:
So in a nutshell, it looks like epic pools will not change with respect to powers available. The Q, in my mind at least, is how the devs view each ATs counterpart. |
In any case, there's no direct equivalence to be had. I would expect new APPs and PPPs for the ATs that didn't have them before.
This also means that if I want to respec my Vigilante-bound Brute, I'd better do it before I lose access to Mu Mastery...
Team role I would have to agree with Bill. Stalkers and Blasters are like 4/1 first strike cards in MTG. They can take out any part of a mob they so choose really fast. Any utility/shield that keeps them alive beyond that is just icing.
I also have to agree with Bill that this will probably mean all new epic pools. Aside form the double Caltrops example (/ninjitsu/weapon mastery), you'd also have Energize and Conserve Power on Brutes, Controllers with PPP pets (if they got matched to Doms), etc. It probably wouldn't break the game, but I still imagine there'd be some changes.
It may just be a matter of rearranging APP powers into new pools.
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