Hello from Paragon Marketing
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-04-16 09:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I've already read, digested, and burped back up these suggestions. Wonder when Pebbles will be back? Or did one of you scare them off??
My Deviant Art page link-link
CoH/V Fan Videos
Only one problem with a War Witch Task Force.
It will inevitably be abbreviated WTF.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
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1M inf says not til after May 1st, at least.|
Originally Posted by DarkEther
I've already read, digested, and burped back up these suggestions. Wonder when Pebbles will be back? Or did one of you scare them off??
|
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
1M inf says not til after May 1st, at least.
Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
It's a deal!!
My Deviant Art page link-link
CoH/V Fan Videos
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He clearly feared he would succumb to the Awesome Power that is Kitty Eyes. |
Originally Posted by DarkEther
I've already read, digested, and burped back up these suggestions. Wonder when Pebbles will be back? Or did one of you scare them off??
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"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
He's not even going to have a budget until two weeks before GR comes out
It's still the season for riddles and shuffling papers there in Paragon Studios marketing
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
Ok, here one side of the things I have not seen around...
What about those of us that are not NA or EU customers? You know, people might like to play this game even if they live in Australia, Brazil (like me) or South Africa. Hey, I wonder if we can surpass the censorship for it in China tha would be a BIG market... Think of all those people!
That said, and being sure it is not your area of expertise but hoping you can make it reach the right people, the guys at NCSOFT really should re-think the deal they have with Level Up Games. These are the guys that are supposed to be making your games known and played around these parts... Let me say they are NOT doing a good work. You know, I really want to spend my money wit your game but as an example the last Booster they have been selling here is the Cyborg one... Something should be done about that, don´t you think?
Now about the actual marketing of things... And probably being repetitive.
-Banner adds don´t seem to be such a hard thing to do. Evony and other trashy games do that as viral marketing for example. And I believe at least some of the people that play them spend money on them.
-HULU seems to be quite an unanimity in where to place a video around here... But maybe something like an official City of Heroes You Tube could also do the trick.
-Product placement in programs like Big Bang Theory (Nerds Unite!) seems to be a good line to follow... They´re seen in other parts of the world besides the US, think of that.
-You made your videos and they´re attracting people on You Tube? Now seem to be the time for a real TV commercial... But think cable. Cheaper and more specific audience. Place an add for City of Heroes in the middle of Ben 10 and you´ll get a lot of people bugging their parents (or maybe wives, lol) to get them into the game...
-In-game billboards... Hum, that was tried before but not well done. If the ads are made having in mind that they are in the City of Heroes world, not ours, they would not look odd. Like if they are in the Rogue Isles they HAVE to be dirty! If they are well done, and not the SAME in ALL boards I would actually keep them in game... And probably even go to Burger King or whatever in my lunch break.
-Real life merchandise. WE WANT IT. Really, how can you NOT use real products to get our money? If you need ideas that stuff from Mother Love was awesome... BTW: I want my awesome button! If you start selling City of Heroes products, think of a way for us foreigns to get our hands on them too please?
-Still on the real products... No more books or comics ever? Those helped players keep to the lore I think... I personally would pay for something like a City of Heroes Compendium to read about what I play, as an example.
-Comic books adds... Where do you think we originally came from? ´Nough said. Not needed to be in the two big ones either if those are off limits.
-Pen and paper RPG... Well, Champions came from one right? Maybe work something with Steve Jackson Games, I think they could use a GOOD scenario for playing with Supers in GURPS... Or maybe one of the smaller companies.
-Make the character costume creator into a freebie outside of the game... I know lots of people who would love to have a tool like that for the creations on fics or board games. And many would go to the game that gave them this.
Edit: Oh, and welcome into the asylum, man! Sorry, didn´t mean to be rude by forgetting that...
"Looks can be deceiving" - Statesman (in Memoriam)
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Interestingly enough there was an attempt to make a City of Heroes PnPRPG book, it was given to the same guy who did the Buffy PnPRPG, however after years of waiting all that they came out with was a couple of pages preview and when the IP transfered from Cryptic to NCsoft I believe NCsoft yanked the production of the book away from them since they'd done nothing with it for a very long time.| -Pen and paper RPG... Well, Champions came from one right? Maybe work something with Steve Jackson Games, I think they could use a GOOD scenario for playing with Supers in GURPS... Or maybe one of the smaller companies. |
Some say that it was because the guys making it had 'too much on their plate' with the Buffy RPG and their own system to support (Zombies: Thy flesh consumed amongst others) and begin a very small studio they just didn't have the time to create it, especially as, with most MMO based material (looking at you Warcraft: the RPG which got turned into World of Warcraft: the RPG which the core book was already hideously outdated at the moment of release) it was going to be so out of date by the time the book got released it wasn't worth it (considering they started making it back in issue 2 or 3 and we were up to issue 7 or 8 by the time the plug was officially pulled).
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*sigh* if only...
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Originally Posted by Trialtester
something like an official City of Heroes You Tube could also do the trick.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I think for some things, a lot of it would have to be done by hand. There's a reason those figure prints take a month or more to create. I wouldn't mind one bit hypothetically being able to bring the geometry into Max to see what I could do using it's smoothing and geometry tools. One could hypothetically send a link to an exported .OBJ to my PM box.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We might get lucky on some of this, although not all of it. The right set of Catmull-Clark subsurf parameters and iterations would smooth out the mesh and also eliminate some of the finer (and impossible to print) details like in hair:
 (The slightly washed out look on the chest of the model is due to the fact that I had no patience for the light source positioning in Blender and just added a bunch of suns in the sky). At the moment, I'm less interested in what could be done by hand, and more interested in what could be done in a relatively automated fashion. Fortunately, I can't do anything by hand, so I'm the perfect human analog to a batch script. That model is almost printable (the skirt is probably still too thin, but the point you mentioned is largely smoothed out now) and it could be generated automatically. Its still a) half-naked, b) has details that would almost certainly break off or not print (glasses), and c) has no color, but you could almost imagine that being a lead figurine. Hypothetically, of course. (Those mitten hands, though, make expressive gesticulation poses just a tad distracting.) |
There's also the question of, artistically, where does one draw the line at smoothing. If you look at a figure like this one: http://cf.figureprints.com/media/photo084.jpg
They left the shoulder armor and his pony tail relatively unsmoothed and "low poly" looking. The character's who are holding mugs are still holding six-sided cylinders. It's clear they've added geometry to areas that needed it for the printing process, but left the look from the game intact. In the case of your model, I think that would include keeping the point on the skirt, if you see what I'm saying.
What would players expect? Myself, I'd want the integrity of the character maintained as much as possible, warts and all. That means blocky mitten hands and putting up with the limitations of the animation skeleton causing odd deformation like in the skirt. I think it would have to be a point of discussion where the dev's and players' desired level of quality would be and what exactly they value, accuracy, speed or pure aesthetics or a combination of only two.
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Well, in that case it needs to get KNOWN... To find a way to spread the word, you know?|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
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Someone said before about "shamelesly using celebrities". Seems like an interesting idea at least... Well, Nicholas Cage would be an obvious choice for something like that. Maybe Kevin Smith? Or even someone from the Comic industries, like the great Stan Lee (the old man had a webcomic sometime ago, not sure if it is still going...) or maybe Jim Lee? To get us known, maybe a computer geek like Ashton Kutcher? If he likes the game I bet he would tweet it... Who else could be seen as a geek celebrity that would enjoy this game of ours, any ideas? Now, get those guys a free copy of the game with one year subscription and let´s see what they think about it!
Now if we ever get real life ads with well known people... Either asks Lou Ferrigno, Lynda Carter or Adam West. Us real life geeks would appreciate it... ;-)
And now I just imagined a Commercial with Comic Book Guy from Simpsons... THAt would be hilarious. :-)
"Looks can be deceiving" - Statesman (in Memoriam)
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The challenge is that none of those celebrities would likely be a cost-effective spokesperson. Heck, a simple, targeted TV promotion is extremely unlikely to attract enough paying subscribers to pay itself off, let alone one that has the additional cost of a celebrity spokesman.|
Originally Posted by Trialtester
Well, in that case it needs to get KNOWN... To find a way to spread the word, you know?
Someone said before about "shamelesly using celebrities". Seems like an interesting idea at least... Well, Nicholas Cage would be an obvious choice for something like that. Maybe Kevin Smith? Or even someone from the Comic industries, like the great Stan Lee (the old man had a webcomic sometime ago, not sure if it is still going...) or maybe Jim Lee? To get us known, maybe a computer geek like Ashton Kutcher? If he likes the game I bet he would tweet it... Who else could be seen as a geek celebrity that would enjoy this game of ours, any ideas? Now, get those guys a free copy of the game with one year subscription and let´s see what they think about it! Now if we ever get real life ads with well known people... Either asks Lou Ferrigno, Lynda Carter or Adam West. Us real life geeks would appreciate it... ;-) And now I just imagined a Commercial with Comic Book Guy from Simpsons... THAt would be hilarious. :-) |
Celebrity spokesmen are good for engaging a new market and getting them interested, but I'm wondering if that's what will really drive subscriptions with Going Rogue. From what I've heard, Going Rogue will require a license to the original game to work, which means that people who haven't played the game before will need to fork out $10 more for the complete collection. Doesn't sound like much, but that's still a barrier to someone that's not sold on the game (yet).
I'd instead be looking at targeting the hundreds of thousands of players that have tried the game, enjoyed it, but eventually left for the next new shiny. You want them to come back, buy the box, and re-discover all that's changed and grown since they left. They've got less of an investment cost to come back and they're familiar with the product. They're the low-hanging fruit that marketing can bring in-- They can also be more directly targeted- focusing on sites mmo gamers frequent and online mail get-the-word out campaigns... much cheaper than TV spots and thus more bang for their buck.
I noticed in Big Bang Theory there are loads of CoX cutouts, posters and such, hell, Captain Sweatpants even has a Statesman shirt. That show right there is a goldmine.
I'm 100% for herocon stuff outside of Herocon. For years the small community of Aussies who play CoX have been getting left in the dark corner, watching as everyone else gets all these cool things like those AWESOME PPD Hardshells! I've been drooling over those since I first laid eyes on them, and then to learn that people fortunate enough to live in America were getting these outfits... It broke my tiny, stale little heart. 
Of course, being a warmer, smaller group than the tyrannical, primarily fantasy-based company that have been knocking off a beloved tabletop game for years, it's understandable that there's only so far you can go and still have people around home to make the place look like someone is living there (I've found leaving the radio on doesn't work). It still hurts though.
Merch! Merch is always good! I've always wanted an Arachnos belt buckle... Or even some kind of trinket of Hero-1's helmet...
Chase is also spot-on with targeting people who left for say... The other MMO, or CoD6 or what-have-you. With what WE'VE seen and heard about GR, I'm positive it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel.
As for Castle being evil/mean, am I the only one who still pledges undying loyalty to him?! 
(Don't worry mate, I'll waterbomb Pebble when he goes to get into his car!)
I say a web commercial with someone like Kevin Conroy (the voice of Batman in BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES) talking about how WE do the whole heroics thing. Then get Mark Hamill and Arleen Sorkin (the Joker and Harley Quinn) as a Mastermind and a Corruptor or something working in tandem on a mayhem. (And they both absolutely MUST have characters with the Throw Fish power.)
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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I believe what figureprints does is make a database of all the parts, figure out which ones are printable and which ones are not, and automatically replaces the unprintables with their own versions of ones that are. That way, they can do it automatically.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I think for some things, a lot of it would have to be done by hand. There's a reason those figure prints take a month or more to create.
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Although the figures can take a month to turn around, I think they've said it only takes about a week to actually generate them (there is a backlog), and I believe a lot of that is just the process. It can take all day to print one (although they can print more than one at a time) and there is a post process to harden them. Then there is some touchup by hand. But I don't think they literally hand-edit the actual geometry for each individual model. If you think about it, the problem isn't time, its money. The cost for someone to operate a printing machine is probably low: the cost to pay an actual trained 3D modeler with both aesthetic sense and knowledge of what is printable would likely be so high that if he or she spent any significant time on the model their time would cost more than the model normally sells for.
We (CoH) actually have a weird advantage in that area. We have a costume save file format. We could literally look at a simple text file and figure out which parts were printable and which were not. If we decide that hair style 5 is not printable, we could replace it in that text file with a batch script and then feed it back into the game, re-pose it, and then extract for printing. We would need someone to make printable versions of everything that is not printable, which would be time consuming, but you would only have to do it once. You could also do it as people order models that required it, and do it once for all future models.
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| I wouldn't mind one bit hypothetically being able to bring the geometry into Max to see what I could do using it's smoothing and geometry tools. One could hypothetically send a link to an exported .OBJ to my PM box. |
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There's also the question of, artistically, where does one draw the line at smoothing. If you look at a figure like this one: http://cf.figureprints.com/media/photo084.jpg They left the shoulder armor and his pony tail relatively unsmoothed and "low poly" looking. The character's who are holding mugs are still holding six-sided cylinders. It's clear they've added geometry to areas that needed it for the printing process, but left the look from the game intact. In the case of your model, I think that would include keeping the point on the skirt, if you see what I'm saying. What would players expect? Myself, I'd want the integrity of the character maintained as much as possible, warts and all. That means blocky mitten hands and putting up with the limitations of the animation skeleton causing odd deformation like in the skirt. I think it would have to be a point of discussion where the dev's and players' desired level of quality would be and what exactly they value, accuracy, speed or pure aesthetics or a combination of only two. |
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Should anyone want to look at it (free, legitimately,) tis here.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Interestingly enough there was an attempt to make a City of Heroes PnPRPG book, it was given to the same guy who did the Buffy PnPRPG, however after years of waiting all that they came out with was a couple of pages preview and when the IP transfered from Cryptic to NCsoft I believe NCsoft yanked the production of the book away from them since they'd done nothing with it for a very long time.
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That free sample is unfortunately all they ever managed after what, four or five years of work?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Should anyone want to look at it (free, legitimately,) tis here.
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GR Complete Edition is about the same cost as a brand new console game, and comes with a month of play time ($15 value). I don't think it's as big a deal as you think.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
From what I've heard, Going Rogue will require a license to the original game to work, which means that people who haven't played the game before will need to fork out $10 more for the complete collection. Doesn't sound like much, but that's still a barrier to someone that's not sold on the game (yet).
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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LOL I TOTALLY forgot about this. I recall it being spoken of during the first HeroCon.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
That free sample is unfortunately all they ever managed after what, four or five years of work?
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Indigo, leader of the City of Heroes.
City of Gaymers on Guildportal.com
http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...3&TabID=295104
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Viral web ads have some potential- they're more economical and more likely to hit the target market.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
I say a web commercial with someone like Kevin Conroy (the voice of Batman in BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES) talking about how WE do the whole heroics thing. Then get Mark Hamill and Arleen Sorkin (the Joker and Harley Quinn) as a Mastermind and a Corruptor or something working in tandem on a mayhem. (And they both absolutely MUST have characters with the Throw Fish power.)
Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
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You mean like running an ad in theaters before the start of a new superhero movie? Seems like a natural to me.|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
Somtimes PST, somtimes EST.
I think it'd be pretty neat to see CoX everywhere you go, until it starts getting creepy. However, we do need to balance things out. For example, Superbowl ads. I think most would agree those are memorable, but does it always mean new sales? The City of Heroes blimp may be cool, though. Instead of going nuts, I'd much rather we get as many new prospective customers as possible with planned, focused campaigns. |
Snagged you an avatar if your interested.
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It IS a barrier- most people that you're paying to reach through TV marketing do not have subscription-based-MMO experience. They see this more as "I'm paying the same amount as a brand new console game for something I can play for only a month, before I have to pay more."|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
GR Complete Edition is about the same cost as a brand new console game, and comes with a month of play time ($15 value). I don't think it's as big a deal as you think.
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That's not to say there won't be people interested there. Just saying that when you're dealing with a limited budget, you spend it where you can get more bang for your buck.
Television's Limiting Value
TV ads, you're paying (A LOT) to reach all television viewers. Even if you focus on "techie friendly" channels and markets, you're still going to find that the largest base reached are users with crappy 4-year old PC's with integrated video cards (the vast majority of PC's sold) that won't get to experience the new shiny, may not be able to tell the difference between a PC limit and lemon software, and voice their complaints in ways that either make them more costly- actually hurting the bottom-line as the game has to allocate more resources to help them or ease the negative reputation they spread than they ever get via revenue.
Yes, there are technically-savvy folk out there, but we're talking averages here, and this game community is much more savvy than the market segments we'd see in the best targeted TV ads.
But overall, you're spending an INCREDIBLY expensive marketing campaign to reach a market that's largely unlikely to become valuable, contributing customers. Odds are very good that you'll end up spending considerably more than you'll ever get back out of it. That's fine if you're doing this to buff your ego, but it's stupid if you're running a business. (There are other market reasons that make STO and WoW exceptions I can go into later, if anyone cares).
Target the Low-Hanging Fruit
Existing PC Gamers
Studies suggest that PC gamers have tuned down their TV watching habits- that market has more or less substituted the 20+ tv watching hours of their peers with 20+ online hours. They generally watch less or are more likely to split their attention between PC and TV (ignoring commercials). The TV's not going to reach them effectively.
PC gamers are going to come to the table more familiar with how "system requirements" affect their experience. They're also going to have, on average, better machines that can render the game in all its glory. They thus get the most out of the eye-candy while offering lower technical support costs.
PC gamers are also more comfortable with online activity, as a whole. They're more likely to search online about a game before they buy it. Marketing can help this decision making by identifying gaming communities & news sites, assisting these places in reporting about the game, encouraging their player base to go to those news sites, and making sure that those sites have current and positive information.
More Specific
Online subscription gamers are specific subgroup of gamers- there's a large contingent of gamers that just won't consider a subscription fee, even if the game lacked the initial up-front costs of buying your typical A-list console game. I've read business studies that suggest that there's a greater general skepticism to subscription-based service over pay-once-and-forget services, even when the economics show the subscription as the better deal. That's a trust barrier that has to be overcome, but once it is, users that find success with that model are more likely to try that service in the future.
So, if you can get the message to people that have already played a subscription-based mmo in the past, you have better chances of getting them to try it again.
And Yet More Specific
Average "churn" in an mmo used to be reported as around 3 months (based on 2006 data). Jack E. once alluded that CoH churn was more like 6-9 months during a keynote. City of Heroes numbers have been on a stable, but gradual decline-- much more gradual than even a 9-month churn would explain unless we're getting a reasonable number of new people replacing some of the old. Many just try things and move on as a form of habit.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of people by now that have tried this game. We got them through the system requirements barriers, through the subscription-play barriers, and in the game and playing. Some left in a fit of anger, but most just searched for the next shiny-- and we can bring those people back.
Now Imagine
Imagine you had the cash from a three-month national cable tv campaign that reached a number of people- many of which are never gonna be viable potential customers... and instead you used those resources to enrich the places existing subscription MMO gamers frequent-- giving them news material, encouraging and community promotion & participation in those commons-- refreshing media resources. Make viral material... seed it, encourage others to do the same... put some of the marketing push behind it to energize the base to share and spread it.
Then you take some of that money and encourage player meet-n-greets in all sorts of places where gamers or gamer-high populations congregate-- from comic & game conventions to your friendly local game/comic shop to... heck... organizing a campus lan party. Get them to organize them online, give the bigger ones some swag, and encourage them to be visible, open, friendly, and inviting, so other people ask & discover.
The $$ from that tv campaign would go a LONG way in these kinds of campaigns and reach far more viable customers.
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Whew! Finally made it through the whole thread. I noticed somebody else already posted almost the same avy pic I did, so I found a couple more that are more representitive of the reputation the majority probably expect from someone that works in a marketing department.|
Originally Posted by Clobbertime
You mean like running an ad in theaters before the start of a new superhero movie? Seems like a natural to me.
Snagged you an avatar if your interested. |
Like I said when they first started it up, no ingame ads. Yeah, I know they had it where you could turn it off, and that's likely why it failed. Companies spend a lot of money on thier ad campaigns and aren't likely to spend more on advertising space that can be so easily ignored by the target audience. I have no doubt that if ingame ads are brought back that we will no longer have the option of turning them off.
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You might've missed that the in-game ad tech where it tracked *who* could see the ad, and how often they were seen. The client was therefore charged by the access to the ad. If most people turned it off, the ad campaign just wouldn't be as expensive.|
Originally Posted by Clobbertime
Like I said when they first started it up, no ingame ads. Yeah, I know they had it where you could turn it off, and that's likely why it failed. Companies spend a lot of money on thier ad campaigns and aren't likely to spend more on advertising space that can be so easily ignored by the target audience. I have no doubt that if ingame ads are brought back that we will no longer have the option of turning them off.
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Odds are that it died (in part) because online ad revenue dipped significantly last year (something of a global recession) and it takes time for the devs to review, approve, and set up- if the $$ was so low that it wasn't even paying the devs' caffeine fund, then they probably just didn't want to waste the resources....
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
PS - does this mean that now that you're here, I have to stop making videos to promote the game?
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