Interest in a Freedom mini-ladder?
By
Bionic_Flea,
Posted on: 2010-04-15 07:01 in Everything about PvP
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From what Ive seen pvping in this game since villains release, alot of times people talk/complain/ridicule in the forums about their view of PvP. What happens in game is often completely different. So they become 1-0, 3-0, etc. Hockey and baseball scores vs the 15-8 type games you have now. |
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
a 6v6 and a 5v5pentad are completely different.
If you're proposing just straight 5v5's...maybe But If you do a pentad, 1 stalker and 1 blaster aren't going to kill anything together...expecially when the other team can bring an emp def and emp troller. |
I think it could be fun as hell and open arena PvP up to more players. Not everyone has an emp or a psi blaster. And many very good pvpers arent playing in your league. I think youd be pleasantly suprised.
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wrong.|
Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
From what Ive seen pvping in this game since villains release, alot of times people talk/complain/ridicule in the forums about their view of PvP. What happens in game is often completely different. So they become 1-0, 3-0, etc. Hockey and baseball scores vs the 15-8 type games you have now.
I think it could be fun as hell and open arena PvP up to more players. Not everyone has an emp or a psi blaster. And many very good pvpers arent playing in your league. I think youd be pleasantly suprised. |
there are no good players in this game, only less bad players.
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My team is terrible.
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
wrong.
there are no good players in this game, only less bad players. |
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Except for Vert
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Originally Posted by Silit
My team is terrible.
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Ok then there are no good players in this game, only less bad. So there are lots of less bad players not in the PvP league right now. Opening up the ATs might increase participation. I know many of you ride the short bus to school so let me speak plainly. |
Originally Posted by black_barrier
wrong.
there are no good players in this game, only less bad players. |
MOAR ATs = MOAR BETTER PvP!
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Requiring more AT's =/= better PvP|
Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
Ok then there are no good players in this game, only less bad. So there are lots of less bad players not in the PvP league right now. Opening up the ATs might increase participation. I know many of you ride the short bus to school so let me speak plainly.
MOAR ATs = MOAR BETTER PvP! |
0-0 ties =/= better PvP
1-0 wins due to the other teams error, not your skill =/= better PvP.
If you think a pentad ladder is viable, try to form one. Let me know how that goes.
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No interest in running a league but as time permits I do participate in arena stuff (including a d6 match or two). Im just telling you there is a larger pool of PvPers out there you could interest in matches if yall were so stubborn and cliquish.
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Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Requiring more AT's =/= better PvP
0-0 ties =/= better PvP 1-0 wins due to the other teams error, not your skill =/= better PvP. If you think a pentad ladder is viable, try to form one. Let me know how that goes. |
cliquish? wut?
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The reason team lineups are so horribly rigid is because of the system, not the players. I remember playing a Son/EM in a pentad tourney before I13 - when the Rad tagged our target and I got a few attacks off on it, I could often close to melee range and Bone Smasher might drop half their health between all my +dam and the target's -res. You could conceivably get kills with only one Blaster (and maybe an offensive/debuff Defender) because people didn't have retarded base resists and Blasters actually did damage.
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Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
Im just telling you there is a larger pool of PvPers out there you could interest in matches if yall were so stubborn and cliquish.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Y r u kids responding to that guesswhosdumb noub, he clearly has no clue what he's talking about
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
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qft|
Originally Posted by Borderline Boss
Y r u kids responding to that guesswhosdumb noub, he clearly has no clue what he's talking about
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Was talkin in vent about this last night. Another idea would be to make it a pentad and no duplication of powersets and ATs. Ie cant have two empath (troller and def), thermal (corr, mm, etc etc) or psi.
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Let me guess, divines vent|
Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
qft
Was talkin in vent about this last night. Another idea would be to make it a pentad and no duplication of powersets and ATs. Ie cant have two empath (troller and def), thermal (corr, mm, etc etc) or psi. |
What a joke
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
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The D6 portion of the league has been exponentially more two dimensional when it comes to lineup diversity than the D8 portion, which is already fairly linear. |
Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
I thought one of the current leagues used 6 per team? In which case I find it hard to believe that one less per side would turn into 0 to 0 ties every match.
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Mac is mostly right when he says the system is what's flawed.
One of the problems is the way damage and resistances work.
The other is that everything is much easier to play since there is much less room for potential error.
That being said, in a 5v5 there is even less room for potential error. It's easier for a team to stay alive, often making for very low and close scoring matches - even between teams far apart in skill.
How easy is it to lock in a 5v5?
How easy is it to keep a team of only five buffed and healed?
How easy is it to evade when less people are attacking you?
Pretty easy.
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numbers don't really matter - are there enough people interested to even do a ladder - kat's or slax's or whomevers.|
Originally Posted by Silit
The D6 portion of the league has been exponentially more two dimensional when it comes to lineup diversity than the D8 portion, which is already fairly linear.
Mac is mostly right when he says the system is what's flawed. One of the problems is the way damage and resistances work. The other is that everything is much easier to play since there is much less room for potential error. That being said, in a 5v5 there is even less room for potential error. It's easier for a team to stay alive, often making for very low and close scoring matches - even between teams far apart in skill. How easy is it to lock in a 5v5? How easy is it to keep a team of only five buffed and healed? How easy is it to evade when less people are attacking you? Pretty easy. |
The whole ladder started when the pvpec threw together a lot of work behind organizing the 10+ sg's that showed up on test and practiced. The people were there first then the ladder was created to organize them. There was never an argument over 8v8 or not because there was enough people to do multiple 8v8's...freaks, jal, even OS were running two teams of 8 at a time at one point or another.
in all honesty if you want to do this it should be on test if for no other reason than access to ios and respecs for all people..yah test is quirky but we dealth with it and 17 is in open beta...
The ladder just grew out of all these people looking for a way to give meaning to the 10+ sg's doing matches, practice and general s'talkin each other. You need the numbers first - of people who want to play in an sg with each other and against other teams..at least 12-15 of them. I don't think you have that.
It will never happen with ppl like silit scaring teams out of leagues !
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
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Agreed. Which is all the more why a 5v5 league wouldn't work out.
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Originally Posted by B_Witched
numbers don't really matter - are there enough people interested to even do a ladder - kat's or slax's or whomevers.
The whole ladder started when the pvpec threw together a lot of work behind organizing the 10+ sg's that showed up on test and practiced. The people were there first then the ladder was created to organize them. There was never an argument over 8v8 or not because there was enough people to do multiple 8v8's...freaks, jal, even OS were running two teams of 8 at a time at one point or another. in all honesty if you want to do this it should be on test if for no other reason than access to ios and respecs for all people..yah test is quirky but we dealth with it and 17 is in open beta... The ladder just grew out of all these people looking for a way to give meaning to the 10+ sg's doing matches, practice and general s'talkin each other. You need the numbers first - of people who want to play in an sg with each other and against other teams..at least 12-15 of them. I don't think you have that. |
I'll join when I get back from vacation.
I'm in. 
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how was outer space?
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Originally Posted by Rodger_Power
I'm in.
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It was amazazazing. PvP on the moon is pretty tough though and KB is clutch.
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Originally Posted by iLostCountBarrier
how was outer space?
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I'll join.
The other thread -- "Further Pvp/Ladder" -- talks mainly about the highly competitive 8v8 teams, with no team size limits, etc. That ladder is good for the established/vet pvp players. Since most of them have known each other for quite a long time, are most comfortable and play best with people/friends (and quite frankly, it is really fun to play with friends -- no drama), can have as a diverse or specialized lineup, etc. that ladder can have whatever complex/simple rules or have it done in test or freedom or what ever needs to be done for a formal, competitive 8v8 professional ladder. So maybe we can keep the 8v8 ladder discussed in that thread as a completely different ladder from this mini ladder.
Maybe this mini ladder can be used to help introduce/encourage pvp to (new to pvp) players; and keep it that way -- the mini ladder as the amateur division, completely different, more simple, autonomous from the professional division.
With this mini set-up to focus on new players, everyone new/fairly new to pvp, this could be a nice level playing field... no pressure from established/vet pvp'ers who are either in the team, or from opposing team. People wont be facing off against those who have been playing for several years, are heavily proc'd and pvp iod to the gills, know how to max builds in mids, etc. Likewise, there wont be any of these established pvp'ers in the team who would likely be chosen to play every game, simply because they are the best players in the team; with this, everyone gets a chance to play and not feel being left out.
Things can start off very clumsy, with the new players not knowing what even a "lock" or "evade" is, calling targets, heck maybe even its their first time to know what "vent" is, but eventually the team(mates) learns by themselves. Things can be competitive as this mini ladder goes through the latter stages, and maybe these team will self-impose stuff to get better. Eventually, they'll get to know arena chat, channels etc, learn about making optimal builds in mids, and learn to take advice from the pvp pros from the other (8v8) ladders, but are stil able to play in a league of their peers, in a fair gaming field.
This also takes care of complaints from the established/pro/vet pvp'ers about being stuck with newbies, not being able to team with their long time friends, not wanting to teach (lets face it -- most people pvp to play, not teach) new players since they would be in the competitive 8v8 ladder and not in the mini ladder.
The mini ladder may not be perfect for new players, but its one good way to have a level playing field, as mini steps towards being (later) better in pvp, without much pressure being with and playing against establised pvp'ers and especially established pvp groups/teams.
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Originally Posted by Filipino Super Hero
I'll join.
The other thread -- "Further Pvp/Ladder" -- talks mainly about the highly competitive 8v8 teams, with no team size limits, etc. That ladder is good for the established/vet pvp players. Since most of them have known each other for quite a long time, are most comfortable and play best with people/friends (and quite frankly, it is really fun to play with friends -- no drama), can have as a diverse or specialized lineup, etc. that ladder can have whatever complex/simple rules or have it done in test or freedom or what ever needs to be done for a formal, competitive 8v8 professional ladder. So maybe we can keep the 8v8 ladder discussed in that thread as a completely different ladder from this mini ladder. Maybe this mini ladder can be used to help introduce/encourage pvp to (new to pvp) players; and keep it that way -- the mini ladder as the amateur division, completely different, more simple, autonomous from the professional division. With this mini set-up to focus on new players, everyone new/fairly new to pvp, this could be a nice level playing field... no pressure from established/vet pvp'ers who are either in the team, or from opposing team. People wont be facing off against those who have been playing for several years, are heavily proc'd and pvp iod to the gills, know how to max builds in mids, etc. Likewise, there wont be any of these established pvp'ers in the team who would likely be chosen to play every game, simply because they are the best players in the team; with this, everyone gets a chance to play and not feel being left out. Things can start off very clumsy, with the new players not knowing what even a "lock" or "evade" is, calling targets, heck maybe even its their first time to know what "vent" is, but eventually the team(mates) learns by themselves. Things can be competitive as this mini ladder goes through the latter stages, and maybe these team will self-impose stuff to get better. Eventually, they'll get to know arena chat, channels etc, learn about making optimal builds in mids, and learn to take advice from the pvp pros from the other (8v8) ladders, but are stil able to play in a league of their peers, in a fair gaming field. This also takes care of complaints from the established/pro/vet pvp'ers about being stuck with newbies, not being able to team with their long time friends, not wanting to teach (lets face it -- most people pvp to play, not teach) new players since they would be in the competitive 8v8 ladder and not in the mini ladder. The mini ladder may not be perfect for new players, but its one good way to have a level playing field, as mini steps towards being (later) better in pvp, without much pressure being with and playing against establised pvp'ers and especially established pvp groups/teams. |
i wish we still had buffing (not healing) positions. they're a good place for new people to start. i remember the first time i ever played in a ladder team practice.. it was against renegades and i'm pretty sure i threw out like 2 cages all match (but kept everyone buffed with clarity)... positions like that where evasion is everything and your progress isn't strictly binary (as an emp your target lives or dies, that's it) are what allowed a lot of people to learn how to get their **** together...
often, i hate this game.
also, the focus needs to be shifted at this point; anyone notice what this last league attempt did? yeah, we got like 5 new players that show up for pvp now... but like half of the established guys have quit or plan on quitting. retention needs to be the goal, introduction is overrated.
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While I disagree that "introduction" is overrated, I will agree that retention should be a very high priority. The problem with retention is everything is going against PvPrs to stay, PvP hasn't been looked at in almost 5 issues and if its not the dev's running us out it's our own community.
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Originally Posted by iLostCountBarrier
. retention needs to be the goal, introduction is overrated.
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We have atleast 5 new pvprs on our team wanting more pvp so counting all the other teams I would tend to believe the numbers are much higher than that. I will however agree that retention definitely needs to be a top priority goal. Sadly though I don't think people leaving is anything that events are going to stop. As long as the pvp in this game is subpar and the pvpr's feel neglected or screwed by the devs its going to be like that. Factor in the numbers of people that simply just get bored and that is a huge equation of people leaving constantly. That is going to happen no matter what kind of events get ran or not ran.
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Originally Posted by iLostCountBarrier
i wish we still had buffing (not healing) positions. they're a good place for new people to start. i remember the first time i ever played in a ladder team practice.. it was against renegades and i'm pretty sure i threw out like 2 cages all match (but kept everyone buffed with clarity)... positions like that where evasion is everything and your progress isn't strictly binary (as an emp your target lives or dies, that's it) are what allowed a lot of people to learn how to get their **** together...
often, i hate this game. also, the focus needs to be shifted at this point; anyone notice what this last league attempt did? yeah, we got like 5 new players that show up for pvp now... but like half of the established guys have quit or plan on quitting. retention needs to be the goal, introduction is overrated. |
If you're proposing just straight 5v5's...maybe
But If you do a pentad, 1 stalker and 1 blaster aren't going to kill anything together...expecially when the other team can bring an emp def and emp troller.