Discussion: Live Patch Notes - 4/7/10
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-07 09:43 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I could not have said it better myself.|
Originally Posted by Twisting_Nether
Some of us vets like those AE farms. Want to know why? Because after over 5 years of playing this game you get sick of the grind. I've done both the CoH and CoV content so many times I'm sick of it. I love making new toons and trying them out, but 90% of builds don't start being fun till mid-late 20s (for me personally). AE is pretty nice for skipping all that boring crap. I'll totally agree that the general game IQ of high-level players is going down (thanks to AE), but AE farms aren't completely evil.
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After playing this game for so long, it was refreshing to be able to boost a toon up by myself without having to rely on anyone else to do it. I could do it quietly alone in the corner. Sadly, not everyone is capable of keeping to themselves and have to ruin it for everyone.
Side note, it always make me laugh when I see people try so hard to claim they hate farming, can't stand it, wouldn't be caught dead doing it...yet they're usually the first to complain about a "fix" resulting from their own whining.
We'll see....
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I can agree with the sentiment, the ones building the exploiting AE arcs are the problem. Unfortunately, the Devs are presently attempting to deal with a swarm of gnats by using a shotgun. This is not a good solution, which basically just makes it part of the problem.|
Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Don't hate on the Devs, hate on the exploiters. They're creating the cheating situations the Devs are then having to react to.
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I general though, I am not hating on the devs specifically. I am hating on the solution. With some hatesauce for the folks who forced the Devs hands into placing that solution on Live. And a slice of hate-pie for the folks who enable the exploiters by running exploit-enhanced missions.
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I very much doubt that you have.| My story is way more then just a bunch of stuff happening, and the AV's I chose where important to that story. So I've already broken your stereo type. |
Consider: a lawman in a remote community is faced with a band of killers. All the supposed upstanding members of the community turn their backs on him. Even his deputy won't help. Undeterred, the lawman keeps to his duty and faces the killers alone. Quick, does this story take place in Hadleyville, New Mexico or the moons of Jupiter?
Ever notice how Shakespeare's plays are usually transplanted to other settings and times? Orson Welles, working with WPA actors (i.e. people who weren't really actors and had no experience) put on a production of Macbeth set in Hati, with voodoo and mambos. It was hailed as a triumph.
If you've got an actual story (doesn't have to rival Doestoyevsky, just something with an actual theme), as opposed to a mere narrative of events, then you can set that story anywhere with any characters. If the whole thing is going to fall down if you can't use a particular AV, there was nothing there to begin with.
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I can sympathize with this. I really can. I know the content can get repetitive. That's a challenge I gotta put to the devs. Please generate more content, new content. |
Originally Posted by Flameshot
After playing this game for so long, it was refreshing to be able to boost a toon up by myself without having to rely on anyone else to do it.
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| I could do it quietly alone in the corner. Sadly, not everyone is capable of keeping to themselves and have to ruin it for everyone. |
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Or give me a vet reward that lets me create a new character at whatever level I choose.
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Originally Posted by TheShadowWalker
Scale XP to the amount of vet rewards earned!!!
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So if tomorrow the devs announced they were nerfing IOs that give defense so that it was no longer possible to reach the soft cap (oh wait... they already did that...) you wouldn't praise the move and cheer that the "exploiters" that were clearly "cheating" finally got their due???|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
No that is not an exploit because the game is designed to allow you to do that depending on your class and effort put into that toon. You pick certain powers and IOs over others for benifits you want on that toon. You decide to pick a power where you can slot certain sets even if you do not plan on using that power just to get to that soft cap. With the AE the way it was you no longer had to make those choices.
The devs changed what was offered due to those that were doing what they consider exploiting. For example taking only attakcs and using SOs and being able to solo tons of +4 mobs because you have a bunch of buff bots giving you capped resists and defense and also holding all the mobs down while you kill them. That is an obvious exploit and IMO should be fixed. I do however, have issues with having any Ally reduce your XP. Many stories have battles going on in the background to add color and those battles do not provide any benifit to the player as far as rewards go, yet now those will either have to be removed or get low ranks because they gave crap xp. |
Ironically, those buff bots are available in the mission creator by design. The devs put them there. So why exactly is it an "exploit" or "cheat" to use to the fullest something they purposefully put there that was working exactly the way they designed it. Just like IOs with defense bonuses.
Yet in your mind one is an "exploit" and must be crushed while the other is ok because the game is "designed" that way.
Dude, can you not see there is absolutely no difference here?
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No, because cottage changes are prohibited.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Build a small cottage there.
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But that takes time and effort. Nerfing is easy, quick and painless.|
Originally Posted by twelfth
I can sympathize with this. I really can. I know the content can get repetitive. That's a challenge I gotta put to the devs. Please generate more content, new content.
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| This, on the other hand, is something I can't get behind. Exploits should be exposed. Farm all you want, I don't care. Hell, I want you to farm legitimately, I need the salvage and recipes and stuff. But don't exploit the system. If players find exploits, they are under no obligation to keep them secret. |
Now you may say people used this aspect of AE in ways the devs never intended. Ok, I'll give you that. But that's still not an EXPLOIT.
An exploit would be if you discovered a flaw or error in the way something worked and used it to your advantage, something that clearly was not supposed to be. For example, an ally Dispersion Bubble that gave +100% def instead of +10%. THAT'S an exploit. Or if you discovered that jumping up and down 3 times with Ninja Run active and the Blackwand out gave you unlimited recovery. THAT'S an exploit.
Creating an AE map using assets that are 100% working as designed is NOT AN EXPLOIT.
I've yet to see a game that allows modding where some of the most popular mods are anything but hacks/dupes/item maps/god items etc. Always a very popular thing at any rate.
I'm not sure if the devs of CoX somehow thought their system was immune to that phenomenon or if they thought they would somehow be able to respond quickly as issues arise.
Either prospect leaves me shaking my head. I mean if they actually thought CoX was as different computer game than every computer game every made... well.
And if the same team that usually takes 1-2 years to implement any changes was under the impression they would be able to respond in what requires nearly real time action, then I dunno what to say either.
AE has been fail since day one of it being a seriously considered idea at Paragon. I certianly wouldn't put it on my resume.
If they do ever make a coh2 I seriously hope it does not have an AE system.
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They do, occasionally. Whenever they do we blow through it in a day or two, and by "we" I mean players who actually play content and aren't just looking for quick rewards. Which is why it was awesome when they introduced a theoretically infinite source of new content, by allowing us to add our own.|
Originally Posted by twelfth
I can sympathize with this. I really can. I know the content can get repetitive. That's a challenge I gotta put to the devs. Please generate more content, new content.
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It's also why the "I'm bored of all the content so I want to get to 20 as fast as possible" argument holds no weight. There was a whole bunch of new content to level up on back before people trying to get past the lack of content as fast as possible (presumably so they could complain about the lack of content in a variety of level ranges) convinced the devs to break it.
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That's an impossible task. They can't create content faster than we can go through it. It's just one of those things. Hence why we find other ways to amuse ourselves. Like farming.|
Originally Posted by twelfth
I can sympathize with this. I really can. I know the content can get repetitive. That's a challenge I gotta put to the devs. Please generate more content, new content.
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Originally Posted by twelfth
This, on the other hand, is something I can't get behind. Exploits should be exposed. Farm all you want, I don't care. Hell, I want you to farm legitimately, I need the salvage and recipes and stuff. But don't exploit the system. If players find exploits, they are under no obligation to keep them secret.
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/sarcasm
We'll see....
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Yes, it is. Because it is:| Now you may say people used this aspect of AE in ways the devs never intended. Ok, I'll give you that. But that's still not an EXPLOIT. |
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| An exploit would be if you discovered a flaw or error in the way something worked and used it to your advantage, something that clearly was not supposed to be. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
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Lack of new content is only one of the reasons. But com'n, there hasn't been any new low level content in CoV in over 4 years. It's the same contacts giving out the same arcs with the same boring paper missions over and over ad nauseam.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It's also why the "I'm bored of all the content so I want to get to 20 as fast as possible" argument holds no weight. There was a whole bunch of new content to level up on back before people trying to get past the lack of content as fast as possible (presumably so they could complain about the lack of content in a variety of level ranges) convinced the devs to break it.
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But the flip side is that even if there were a lot more content lowbies just aren't that much fun to play. Not enough powers to form attack chains, little to no defenses, horrible endurance management, miserable accuracy, pathetic damage output... and so on. Why am I forced to endure 25+ levels of suckage before I can actually begin to enjoy playing a character?
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But a design flaw is not the same as a bug. Like I said, one could say that using bots in this way was never what the devs intended. And I would agree (today I would agree because they have told us so -- but yesterday my response would be "well if they didn't want us doing this they would somehow prevent it"). But that doesn't make them an exploit. Using a bug to your advantage is an exploit. Knowing that you're using a bug to your advantage is doubly so. Using assets provided to their fullest ability, which was completely and legally allowed by the game, is not an exploit.|
Originally Posted by Venture
A flaw can be a design flaw, not just a coding error. One of the Ariadne rockets exploded because of a flaw in its control software -- which was written perfectly to specification and passed testing. The specification was wrong. Just because the AE software was functioning does not mean it was not flawed. In this case, the design was flawed, and if you took advantage of that flaw to level faster than intended you are exploiting.
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Now if you found some way to do the same action AFTER the devs attempted to fix it, now THAT would be an exploit.
Again I go back to the IO defense globals. Tons of people use them to hit the soft cap and make themselves virtually invulnerable. They have been purposefully designed this way. There are no checks or lock outs that need to be bypassed to allow it to work.
But what if tomorrow the devs turned around and say "we never intended this so we're putting in a limit as to how much global defense you have so that you can never hit the soft cap." So then it's fine and dandy today but an exploit tomorrow? Sorry, that's retarded.
Man... this sucks...
Why couldn't they have just capped the maximum number of allies in a mission instead?
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And the flaw in the design that allowed people to create buffbots was a bug. That was the entire point of the prior post. Bugs are not just errors in code. Everything not forbidden is not permitted.| Using a bug to your advantage is an exploit. Knowing that you're using a bug to your advantage is doubly so. Using assets provided to their fullest ability, which was completely and legally allowed by the game, is not an exploit. |
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| Again I go back to the IO defense globals. Tons of people use them to hit the soft cap and make themselves virtually invulnerable. They have been purposefully designed this way. |
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| But what if tomorrow the devs turned around and say "we never intended this so we're putting in a limit as to how much global defense you have so that you can never hit the soft cap." So then it's fine and dandy today but an exploit tomorrow? Sorry, that's retarded. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I'm sure there's a bean-counter-y reason they have it, such as the fact that they get money from people who enjoy writing arcs who want more than 3 slots. Like me. |
Originally Posted by Tokyo
Devs, stop wasting time and resources on AE.
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That cash goes towards "supporting the game".
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I knew I could count on you to test this. I was reading this thread and waiting for you to respond.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
This is friggin' obnoxious.
Quick test with a level 40 arc. Minion inf in mission with no allies: 2362 Minion inf in mission with 1 ally who I have not even rescued yet: 824 WTF! How is that even REMOTELY reasonable? |
For storytelling, non-farm, arcs this change sucks. I tried to find another word that sums up how I feel but that's the only one that encompasses my opinion.
I play a fair amount of AE. I enjoy having sidekicks or rescuing a hostage who then fights back. Some penalty I could see, but jumping jehosophat that's extreme. And it's going to have an appreciable impact on how MA arcs are chosen and played, and far too often dropped and neg rated for simply having an ally.
I have one arc affected. In mission four of The All-Seeing Eye you rescue a Malta Gunslinger who in turn helps fight Nemesis. I don't think he provides so much assistance as to be worth cutting the xp rewards in (roughly) half. He's not THAT good. I'm not changing it because his motivations for helping you contribute to the overall storyline.
I hate seeing story arcs like Teen Phalanx and Portal Bandits suffer for the actions of farmers.
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So I got some thoughts...
Usually a patch gets an official patch note on the initial splash screen under the "Patch Updates" tab (which brings you to Patch Notes). Why didn't this get such an entry? It seems a bit rushed and knee jerk reaction. Instead we got to dig around on the forums to see what got affected. And the (I'm guessing) official announcement is very vague and not so explanatory, just a "here it is" *plop*. This didn't seem so protocol-like.
I have 2 AE arcs published, both have allies. I never got either one of them played very much, because like folks say, it gets buried in all the other AE missions. (Whats it up to now? 100k of missions?) No way to find a needle in a haystack. But like other story tellers have said, it their part of the story, and as long as they fight, they rob you of sorts by assisting you, so their your own punishment, but also the only way some objectives can be done solo.
I have enjoyed doing AE missions because I find it beneficial for the salvage and a decent chance for a good recipe. (Although more often than not struck out at recipes) I found tickets were a stabilizer at being able to get the salvage you need at a constant price and not paying a ridiculous price for something a day-trader has artificially inflated for profit. (Another form of exploit)
Like with other things in the game, AE did have it's ways to level toons quickly, but I think it's how it has destroyed other zones that has made it a huge nuisance. I can go to Warburg and launch rockets all day, or Bloody Bay and do anything you want, or Striga and never see a soul. It's cool in a way for my squishy toons that aren't built for PvP to do stuff in a zone that otherwise would be suicide, but sad in a way to be all by yourself also.
I really don't want to see AE go away, as I said it stabilizes some things, but it has become a "camel in the tent" kind of thing. I trust the Devs to sort things out and make things fair.
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If that were the case then they would remove the buffbots. But they didn't. Sorry. Fail.|
Originally Posted by Venture
And the flaw in the design that allowed people to create buffbots was a bug.
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| No, they were not designed this way on purpose. Castle has said in the past that they're aware there's too much positional Defense available from sets but they just don't know what to do about it. Taking advantage of that is not a Hell-worthy trespass but you have no complaint coming if/when this exploit gets closed. |
Even if someday they do decide to "fix" global defenses it would be a flat out nerf, not an exploit fix. You can't exploit something that's working as designed. You can continue to argue the point, but it won't make you any less wrong.
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Have the devs ever come out and said "IOs are not to be used for soft-capping. If you soft-cap your character you are not using IOs for their intended purpose and if you do it repeatedly you will be punished"? Like they said about AE and farming? I don't recall them doing this. I don't recall all those posts sharing and discussing soft-capped builds for any and every AT being deleted. The reduction to the defense bonuses granted by BotZ will be in the open beta patch notes. Not the same thing at all.|
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
Again I go back to the IO defense globals. Tons of people use them to hit the soft cap and make themselves virtually invulnerable. They have been purposefully designed this way. There are no checks or lock outs that need to be bypassed to allow it to work.
But what if tomorrow the devs turned around and say "we never intended this so we're putting in a limit as to how much global defense you have so that you can never hit the soft cap." So then it's fine and dandy today but an exploit tomorrow? Sorry, that's retarded. |
And yeah, if you find a way around a hard cap it would pretty much have to be through an exploit. Right now if I managed to get my Blaster past the HP cap it would have to be through an exploit, since the game code says I can't do that.
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Actually the first Ariane 5 test launch blew up not because of a specification error. It was a double-dumb implementation error:|
Originally Posted by Venture
A flaw can be a design flaw, not just a coding error. One of the Ariadne rockets exploded because of a flaw in its control software -- which was written perfectly to specification and passed testing. The specification was wrong. Just because the AE software was functioning does not mean it was not flawed. In this case, the design was flawed, and if you took advantage of that flaw to level faster than intended you are exploiting.
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1. The Ariane 5 control software included a subroutine from the Ariane 4 system that converted some floating point flight data into 16 bit integers. In Ariane 4 those values never exceeded the 16 bit space but on Ariane 5 the launch velocities were able to overflow those counters, causing an unhandled software exception. This specific component of the software was not designed that way for Ariane 5 and never tested in ground simulations.
2. The Ariane 5 control software didn't even need those subroutines because it handled those functions in a different way, so those values were just thrown away anyway and not used. That's actually why they were never tested. However, when the overflow occured, the processors threw a trap, the trap had no handler, the system determined there was an unknown software error it couldn't recover from, and self-destructed the rocket.
In any case, the use of buff-bots is not an Exploit with a capital-E, in the sense that it is an actionable violation of the rules of the game. However, it is an exploitive with a lower-e use of the mission design system. I know the devs knew about these types of problems because I was personally involved in the testing of these circumstances (in I14 beta, testing all the different ways critters and custom critters could be used in AE missions was basically *all* I did for literally hundreds of hours), and I know that using buff bots to allow players to get either minimal-risk rewards or highly accelerated rewards was not intended. The existence of the ability to even include them was a compromise, as most features of the AE are, between trying to give the players as much flexibility as possible, and trying to curtail the worst excesses of exploitive (and Exploitive) behavior.
The question often comes up: if the devs won't let everyone use everything for everything they want, why do they include it at all? And the answer is simply that if the devs only included in the game things they were willing to allow to be used in literally every conceivable way without regard to balance, there would be no game at all. There is nothing in this or any other MMO for which that statement is true. If someone believes that the moment a developer places something in an MMO they are giving unqualified permission to use that thing in any and all possible ways, with an additional promise not to change it when unexpected and undesirable uses are either discovered or discovered to be excessively promoted, then that person is obviously not within the target audience of the MMO industry.
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Remove the XP, only make it Drop Salvage, Cash & Tickets. Many 50s would then actually go play story arcs, this a good thing. Or they would farm, either way 50s are doing something, instead of collecting dust or random SF/TF.
Im telling you this would fix quite a bit.
JJ
I delete more 50s, then you'll ever have.
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That would potentially break any number of otherwise-legitimate arcs. Reducing XP was probably the best solution they could pull off in the time available without too much collateral damage.| If that were the case then they would remove the buffbots. But they didn't. Sorry. Fail. |
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| Another fail. They knew how much each IO set grants and how many stacks were permitted. You don't need to have a degree in game design to add it up and know that softcapping defense would be easy peasy. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Also, the Devs could care less about farming, they just don't want you to exploit system loopholes using AE as a "hack toolbox" to do it.
There is another solution... GM Approved Posting only. You create and edit at will, however a a GM or Dev has to check the pending published missions (and any subsequent edited versions) out before it's made available to the public. That would stop all the exploit farms from ever being published, without ever needing to patch another thing.
Of course... there would be that pesky wait...
the other solution is to turn all AE's into walmarts.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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