Obolishing the Market (WW/BM)
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-17 17:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Really?|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Hmm. I not 100% sure of that any more. I think the developers have been retweeking some of the difficulties at times and have made things generally a little more difficult.
|
REALLY?
Well, let's define it a little better. For a long time, we had a spawning issue where the game didn't seem to be spawning the right number of LT's for a mob. We also saw issues where the AI's weren't optimally using their powers. Both of these situations have been improved.
But I can't find an AT that can't really solo with just storebought enhancements. Defenders might need some solo love, but that's part of the problem they have as a force multiplier. Hopefully some dev love for that in the future. Other than that....
What's changed with these tweaks are our EXPECTATIONS. I've gotten too used to smooth sailing on my characters- even with difficulty settings upgraded. These balance improvements have made things more normal- and more sane. The BASE difficulty is still very balanced against storeboughts, but combined with the increased difficulty, things are a tad more interesting.
Quote:
|
Some AT-combinations are starting to become harder to level. And I don't even want to talk about the freaking mess they've made of duoing difficulties. |
I almost exclusively duo-or-trio... so I'm less informed about large team performance... but I also have the benefit of voice capability with my teammates, so I may be spoiled by play enhanced by better communication. What problems are you seeing?
Quote:
| Probably not specifically because of IOs, but I bet it's hard to data mine difficulties of SO builds versus IO builds. |
Quote:
No. No. No.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Let's just settle this. They should do a 25% cut on merit cost of IOs!
 |
Blanket changes to the system are the stupid, lazy, and foolish way to do it. Readjusting the values so that they're based on level caps and relative worth takes more effort but results in a much more balanced system.
Uniques/High value parts like the relevant Miracle set piece? Their price can sit as is. A set like say, Entropic Chaos that caps out at 35? A set like that should not cost as much per recipe as a level 50 parallel. But that's just my two cents and why I just hit random or use the market. I'm not particularly strong-minded about it but I get annoyed when I see evidence of the devs applying a random multiplier to a spreadsheet without actually, you know, doing real balance work.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
Quote:
Curious what you base this on? What specifics make you not 100% anymore?|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Hmm. I not 100% sure of that any more. I think the developers have been retweeking some of the difficulties at times and have made things generally a little more difficult.
|
Quote:
| Some AT-combinations are starting to become harder to level. |
Quote:
| And I don't even want to talk about the freaking mess they've made of duoing difficulties. |
Quote:
| Probably not specifically because of IOs, but I bet it's hard to data mine difficulties of SO builds versus IO builds. |
*Wanders up and stamps [FAIL] all over the thread, then wanders off*
You fleshlings tire me, honestly...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I actually think the opposite, due to ED and exemping, level 35 recipes are worth more than level 50s. As far as procs certainly the lower the level the more valuable.
|
Originally Posted by LostHalo
Uniques/High value parts like the relevant Miracle set piece? Their price can sit as is. A set like say, Entropic Chaos that caps out at 35? A set like that should not cost as much per recipe as a level 50 parallel.
|
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Okay, you don't like capitalism. I don't either. To borrow Winston Churchill's complaint about democracy, it's the very worst system there is, except for all the others.
Let's replace it. The problem with replacing it with a system of fixed prices from vendors, such as you have postulated, is, who decides what those prices are? Clearly you don't mean for the Devs to decide; they've already made their intent clear, and you don't like it; it's what you're trying to overthrow.
Would YOU be the one to set the prices? Why you and not someone else -- say, someone with 100 times more money than you, who only wants to play one character, and that one character is already IOed? What if he sets the prices really high just to spite you?
Clearly someone is going to get to set the prices in your new regime, but how will it be determined? Will one strong player seize power and dictate to the rest of us? Would we like that?
Wouldn't it be better to have some kind of competition to determine who sets the prices? But what if that winning person then leaves the game? How could we adjust prices as the changing situation warrants if that person sets them once and leaves? Ah, we need system that will constantly adjust prices to reflect what's going on in the game, taking input from many, many players into account. Perhaps everyone will get to vote.
But why should voters be equal? What if I play the game a lot and you only play it for an hour every Saturday? Shouldn't my decisions about prices outweigh yours, reflecting my greater attention to the changing ebb and flow of the game? Maybe I should have more votes if I spend more time playing.
Let's call these votes "influence." So now we've arrived at a system where each player gets influence for playing, more if they play longer and more successfully (avoiding debt, for example), and can use that influence to affect prices of IOs in some kind of publicly-accessible polling place.
But we're not all online at the same time, are we? We need the polling place to be open round the clock, so people can vote any time, then come back later and see how their votes weighed against other player's votes on what the prices should be. A proxy establishment, if you will, that will hold our votes in trust for us while waiting for other players to vote. Or perhaps "consignment" is a better term than proxy.
Yes, yes, it's beginning to take shape now, isn't it? By God!
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
You dirty hippie, with your childishly naive utopian ideas.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Yes, yes, it's beginning to take shape now, isn't it? By God! |
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Quote:
Yes, think of the children!|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
No more player to player inf transfers? What would happen to costume contests???
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by JJDrakken
Oh nevermind, I just dont care anymore.
|
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
Quote:
To appropriately answer your question, I'd like it clarified. I recognize that this is just my opinion, but so is the entirety of this thread. I have several level 50's (and plenty of 40's, 30's, etc.), but only two are hardcore IOd. The remainder function quite well with basic SO/IO builds that cost well under 50 mill. or so. It seems to me that being able to completely SO/IO a level 50 character and still have some left over is "plenty rich." Since I consider myself a "hard core" player, I would assume that a preponderance of the game population have similar playstyles in scope to my "Diet SO/IO lite" stylings.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
If you consider a few hundred mill "plenty rich" I'd like to know what you consider rich to be. Humor me, I just woke up and need something to laugh at.
|
If I missed your definition, please clarify it--and I'll be happy to clarify my answer for you superior amusement.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Try using your merits on random rolls in the lvl 30 to 34 range, that should get you some fairly decent recipies.
Quote:
How do you figure? I've been here since May 2004, I currently have 7 50s and not a single one of them has more than 100 million. Actually, one might have 107, I'll have to go check. Trying to mock people because of how much money they "should" have is both insulting and presumptuous, simply for the fact that not all of us play the same way. Ignoring the fact that three of my 50s were made before Inventions, meaning that two ended up with around 20 million at 50 and one with around 40, this notion that you make money just by existing is flawed to an extreme. The one character I have who may or may not have 100 million got there via selling a purple recipe that netted me 50 million just by itself. I've sold a few purples for around 40-ish million and in six years, I've gotten all of ONE respec recipe, and that sold for 20 million at the time. About the average of what my characters have at level 50, minus any absurdly lucky drops, is around 60 million, give or take.|
Originally Posted by Novamaiden
^This^ A level 50 anything should have at least a couple of 100mil to spend. I spend a couple of mil crafting or at the tailor changing my costumes without a 2nd thought. Once the games back up i'm gonna log in and collect my 100mil from the market from selling stuff while i was asleep/working. See, with the market you can literally get rich in your sleep.
|
I have never, EVER had enough money to so much as even imagine bidding 200 million on a recipe.
As far as the original point goes, abilishing the market, much as I hate using it, isn't really the ideal solution for new players. As a matter of fact, it's a very hurtful solution. Certainly, not everyone enjoys farming. I don't, but then so why not have someone farm for me? People get rich, they make large bids on stupidly common items, and all I have to do is pop by the market every time my inspirations inventory fills up and I walk away with a nice lump sum because someone was bidding 50 000 for Alchemical Silver an 15 000 Inert Gas, and I just happened to have four of each. It happens a lot, actually. So, really, removing the market removes a serious source of income for said newbies, and indeed for anyone who doesn't farm or grind. The only reason I have the millions I have on my characters is because I've taken them from other people. Without the Market, I'd still be back to barely affording my SOs.
And the whole premise here is questionable. It assumes that Set Inventions, especially the more powerful ones, whatever those are, are intended for common use as something people are naturally going to need and upgrade into as they level up. As far as I've seen and as far as developer intent can be read, this doesn't seem to be the case. Sets are loot, plain and simple. They're meant to be rare, expensive and difficult to obtain. That's their whole reason to exist - so people have loot to grind for. I may not have any love lost for loot, but it seems that it's such an integral part of MMOs that people will simply not shut up without it, so there you go.
Personally, I stick to Common Inventions. They use salvage that drops easily and the recipes are available for purchase at the University. You don't need absurd amounts of money or grinding to get those. Just other people's money gained via the market.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
About a month ago I spent 2.5 billion outfitting my fire/kin. No influence sinks, huh?
Quote:
If you mean costumes, I think I have so many costume tokens on my characters that I haven't had to pay for costumes for... Oh, years or thereby.
|
Originally Posted by Moiread
About a month ago I spent 2.5 billion outfitting my fire/kin. No influence sinks, huh?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Do you understand what an influence sink is?|
Originally Posted by Moiread
About a month ago I spent 2.5 billion outfitting my fire/kin. No influence sinks, huh?
|
Spending 2.5 billion influence at the market does not "sink" 2.5 billion inf. It sinks some of that (250 million, to be precise), but certainly not the majority of it. All you have done is move influence around, not "sink" it.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Usually when people talk about influence sinks, they mean that the influence actually leaves the economy. When you buy stuff on the market, 90% of what you spend goes into someone else's pocket. The money doesn't go away, it just goes around. The market fee is an inf sink, but that was only 250 million inf. The other 2,250,000,000 inf you spent is now being spent by other people.|
Originally Posted by Moiread
About a month ago I spent 2.5 billion outfitting my fire/kin. No influence sinks, huh?
|
Paying for a costume change? That's an inf sink. Buying SO's from an NPC? Inf sink. Both of those are pretty small, though.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
I like using the market to buy things that are out of season, like Halloween Salvage. So maybe we should keep the market and "obolish" IOs instead!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
lets get rid of AE and PvP.
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I like using the market to buy things that are out of season, like Halloween Salvage. So maybe we should keep the market and "obolish" IOs instead!
|
To the OP:
First, the word you are looking for is "abolish."
Second, I think you have a fantastic idea there. I would just be mad that the Invention Badges would have to go the way of the dodo. (As well as the nifty portable crafting table.)
Quote:
I don't see increasing the time it takes to get Purples and Set IOs as a bad thing. In fact, I think it could actually go a long way in putting the earning of such powerful game changing items far enough away from a lot of people that it isn't thought about as necessary. I know there are people who refuse to play lowbie characters because they are too weak, and scoff at characters that aren't IOed to the gills for a similar reason. Perhaps increasing the time it takes to get those items might help.
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Your intent here seems to be making it easier to get IOs. What I think you are neglecting is that IF the devs were to implement such a system they would almost certainly price the various items so that the time you have to spend grinding for them is equal or longer than is is currently. So switching to this system wouldn't actually make it easier to get items, it would simply remove the various shortcuts you can use to get them faster (such as selling your drops to other players). In other words if they did this they would almost certainly set the prices so that we are FORCED to farm if we want IOs.
If you want proof I'll point you to the merit prices that they set for IOs. The rare enhancements are between 125-275 merits each and even the uncommons are 50-75. That means they expect you to spend between 2.25 and 13.75 hours for every set IO you want (and purples would presumably cost a LOT more). So fully equipping a level 50 with set IOs would take you between 200 hours and 1250 hours of play depending on exactly what you wanted, and goodness only knows how long it would take if you wanted a purpled build. The advantage of the current system is that at the moment you can do an end run around that. Even if you have no interest whatsoever in marketeering or farming there are plenty of IOs which have an inf price far in excess of their merit cost (LotG 7/5%s are the prime example). Trading merits for one or two of those can easily provide the inf required to fully equip a character with a good set of IOs. Now before you say that the times I quoted above are unrealistic and that the devs would set the prices lower I will point out two things. First off those are based on the prices they set when they introduced the merit system and secondly the merit system was specifically designed for people who wanted to get gear without farming or marketeering. So clearly the devs believe that those sort of time lines ARE reasonable. Secondly this game is casual friendly but not all players are casual players. there are plenty of people who want to have to spend time acquiring a full set of IOs, it's a goal to work towards and for some people that is a good reason for playing the game. They don't want to have full IO sets handed to them on a silver platter. On the other hand IOs are not required for any content so the game itself appeals to both casual and non-casual. Casual players can use SOs and still enjoy everything the game has to offer. Non-casual players have goals to work towards. tl;dr version: This would be fine for farmers and suck for everyone else. |
Quote:
Okay. I am up for that.
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I like using the market to buy things that are out of season, like Halloween Salvage. So maybe we should keep the market and "obolish" IOs instead!
|
Quote:
Sure, why not.
|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
lets get rid of AE and PvP.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
Which last 15% are you talking about? You can't be talking about content - it can all be done on SOs simply enough. |
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Didn't mean to step on any toes, Bill, but I would qualify a few hundred million as being plenty "rich" enough to manage about 85% of what the game offers, even fancy IO sets. I frankenslotted IO'd my old villainous main completely out the wazoo for less than 50 million.
If you want to achieve that last 15% of the game shenanigans, you're expected to expend at least a little effort. At least, I do. |
Now if you're talking about "see how much you can softcap/break recharge/etc," sure - but that's nowhere close to necessary, just a personal goal or preference. Ferrari vs Focus.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Curious what you base this on? What specifics make you not 100% anymore?
Such as...? Some toons solo better than others. But all toons can solo. Yeah, some missions may have a nasty ambush, mob, or EB/AV that can be a pain. But you can change diff settings to make them more managable. And you can get papers/street sweep to level up over these hard missions to make them even more easier. And at the end of the day, just use broadcast/global/etc. and ask someone, "Hey, I have a tough mission, can you help?" I duo a lot, what is the mess here? For you, you could dual build IO/SO and run the same missions (w/o completing and resetting) and give examples. |
/allofthis.
Seriously, what's "Becoming harder to solo?" I must have completely missed the Gimp AT in my list, it's certainly not any of the existing 12. (or 14, if you want to consider VEATs 4 instead of 2 because of branching.) And I tend to lean towards support characters... all of whom can still solo. Are they killing at farmer-build speeds? No. But I don't care.
(Preferred characters - controllers, dominators, various squishies. Most boring to me - threat-what-threat scrapper builds.)
Sam, with respect.
Levelling a character to 50 pre-I9, did mean that very often they had to scrimp and save for SOs, then hit 50 with a small but significant amount of inf
Levelling a frash character (blueside) post I9 even just listing the recipes and salvage that drop for 1 inf makes you far more inf than ever was feasible under the old system
Redside it is still a lot tougher, as the salvage especially tends not to sell for as much, but even then I haven't had a character levelled post-market that struggled to cover basic DO/SO or common IO needs.
You really can't ignore if a 50 got there pre or post I9 when discussing inf.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
As I said, two of them did. The rest didn't. Samuel Tow got to 50 in I3 and Ezikiel Bane got to 50 in I7, soon after 40-50 villain-side was introduced. But that's it. I didn't get another 50 until... Oh, long after the Blaster Defiance changes. Which Issue was that?|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Sam, with respect.
Levelling a character to 50 pre-I9, did mean that very often they had to scrimp and save for SOs, then hit 50 with a small but significant amount of inf |
Of the remaining five, I had an old Blaster I made and got to 34 in I2, then to 42 in I think I6, then to 50 probably an Issue after the Blaster changes. The next one was another Blaster I'd made when I was in the UK, which would put her at some time between January and June 2007. I'm not sure what Issue that was. However, her I got to around 16 and didn't touch until after the Blaster changes. I got her to around 35 thereafter and actually got her from there to 50 last years.
Then I got a Brute to 50. Her I got to 38 in I6, but didn't really mess with for a year or so. Actually, she might have been between my two Blasters. The next one was a Mastermind I got to 50 recently. I made him very early on, but he spent the bulk of his life at 24. I've played him since Inventions in fits and starts and I got him to 50 some time early last year.
Since then, I've gotten a relatively new Scrapper I made at around the time of Inventions to 50. This one was almost entirely levelled up with Inventions present, and she ended up, if I recall correctly, with around 60 million INF after I upgraded her to level 50 Commons. After that, I got a REALLY old Scrapper to 50. Her I made in I1, then remade in I3 when I got Sam to 50, got her to 28 and didn't touch her again. In around I6, I think, I got her to around 4... 46, I think. I got her to 50 towards the end of last year.
Only a single one of these has more than 100 million, and that's the second 50 Blaster because I sold either a unique heal recipe or a purple something, and I think she had something like 101 million or 110 million. Nowhere near 200, at any rate. I also have a fair few characters in their 40s, including a Blaster I absolutely, positively made AFTER inventions. Sitting at 46 now, she has... I don't remember. Somewhere between 40 and 80 million, around 20 of which are going to disappear as soon as she hits 50. I have no patience for playing the market, so chances are I'll buy expensive ready-made enhancements or make them myself, and at half a million per Invention AND half a million per recipe, 80-ish slots are going to run for a lot.
I don't know how people are making BILLIONS and, frankly, I don't care. I'm never going to need that much. But, again, IT IS NOT A SAFE BET to assume that people are going to have hundreds of millions on every one of their 50s, because I'm living testament that that is simply not true.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
abolish private property
the auction house is a bourgeois construction