Quote from PrincessDarkstar
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Yet, a tanker wasn't needed for the all-defender and all-controller MoSTF. =P I'd much prefer to be in an MoSTF attempt where everyone can survive on it's own, then being in one where the 7 other people will die instantly if the aggro slip from the tanker for 3 secondes.| It is all about ambition. I don't just want to have my tank let the team survive, I want my tank to let the team survive on an MoSTF, and for that I need Taunt. |
There's nothing that's absolutly needed in this game. You can always adapt your strategy for the team make-up or team with people able to handle themselves without babysitting.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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I've never heard of a tauntless tanker that getting through an MoSTF yet.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Yet, a tanker wasn't needed for the all-defender and all-controller MoSTF. =P I'd much prefer to be in an MoSTF attempt where everyone can survive on it's own, then being in one where the 7 other people will die instantly if the aggro slip from the tanker for 3 secondes.
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I am not saying it's impossible but the tauntless Tankers that I've heard of get through an STF "well" happened to have 3 defenders and 4 controllers in the team and going by your comment you may be agreeable with me in wondering "What the hell was the Tanker for?". I fully agree.
When it comes to Tankers with taunt, they are; with the right player behind them; capable of doing an MoSTF without a single Controller or Defender in the team. Much more capable than tauntless tankers.
I say that because I damn well know that even Scrappers are capable of tanking MoSTFs without a single Defender or Controller in the team.
Prior to people becoming the right player behind a tanker capable of any of this, as Tankers with taunt, they have an advantage of possibly being able to get things done with atleast one of any type of defender or type of controller supporting them.
Taunt adds flexibility and for me as an avid build creator I would be losing out on the equivalent of peanuts without it.
I will say that whatever job a tauntless tank maybe required for a confrontless scrapper may suffice too, that's the beauty of the game infact I might be inclined to prefer the scrapper (who could know tanking well) as they contribute more from doing more damage at the sametime.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
It's worth noting that Taunt only affects 5 enemies and a Blaster's targeted AOE will affect 16. So even if you open with Taunt religiously, a large proportion of the enemies one fights on a team will not be affected by Taunt anyway unless the team waits through three cycles of Taunting and recharging before attacking.
Do your teams do that?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I'm going to linky to my four rules of tanking for this one. You should never rely only on Taunt to do your work for you when tanking. What it can do is complement your tanking on teams, help you with gathering aggro, and lassoing in mobs that want to stay at range. Taunt can never replace the concepts of you running in first and using your aura and Gauntlet, though (which I think you may have been suggesting, Sailboat, I was just adding on to what I thought I was hearing, heh).|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
It's worth noting that Taunt only affects 5 enemies and a Blaster's targeted AOE will affect 16. So even if you open with Taunt religiously, a large proportion of the enemies one fights on a team will not be affected by Taunt anyway unless the team waits through three cycles of Taunting and recharging before attacking.
Do your teams do that? |
All of those make it worth taking to me at some point in a Tank's career. That -range component alone is worth using solo (works on teams too, of course): I missed Taunt on Grey Pilgrim the other day when I exemped below where he has it, and the darn Family just didn't want to get close to me unless I ran around a corner... using Taunt would have grabbed them in for me.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
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Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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You missed where I said "just to be the most unkillable on the team".
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And some play to do both.
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Personally I'm all over the map on this one. I have:
- One level 50 tanker with Taunt six-slotted
- One level 50 Tanker without Taunt
- One level 47 Tanker without Taunt (pending a respec and might add it)
- One level 40 Tanker with Taunt AND Provoke, both minimally slotted (pending a respec and planning to drop Provoke)
- Several low-level Tankers who may or may not take it as they level
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Your tanks must suck then because none of mine do poor damage.
| Tanker damage is poor |
*sigh* all this chatter over one power. Use the dual build option. Build one with taunt and one w/o. Test. Make adjustments to your style (of play or build) accordingly.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
By the way, found this from the OP in the Brutes forum:
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I like how he justifies not taking Taunt on Brutes with pretty much the same reasons that I gave in my first post here, but then doesn't seem to get the same logic applies to many Tankers.
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I have been playing brutes as my primary characters since I started the game. They looked like the best then, and to me they still do. I have done some exploring of the other character types, and am only really happy with a brute. I leveled a few tanks to 50, to understand brutes better mostly, in the AE system, about one a week, different power sets. Tanks need taunt. I get that. But do brutes need taunt? My current character is a SS/Will brute. I do not have extra power slots to throw away (who does?). I need the shields from fighting set to ungimp will, so there goes 3 powers, even though I rarely use kick (altho the graphic is cool). I have a lot of global recharge, so i basically KO, Haymaker, Mu lightning, FS, and MU lightning - arc, a lot, rarely backing down to kick/punch/air sup, unless someone hits me with a severe -rech. Ah yes, I took fly (love that power) so I got air superiority. What I am saying with all this is my dance card is pretty full, and it already has a few powers like kick and air superiority that are cool, useful sometimes, but not desperately needed. Do I really need taunt? Do other brutes use this (besides stone, the only tank redside.) The reason I guess it is bothering me is I started doing some "master" strike forces - no deaths, and very cool players. Kinda lucked into the group. Problem is, from time to time one of them will say "brute, taunt the X" And I am like looking at my feet sheepishly. I always go out and get the agro, but taunt? Dude, that power choice has never even been on my radar for a brute. I just tend to wander up to the EB and lay one across hs jaw. Seems to taunt him and most of his friends as well. Any thoughts? |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I think some people just enjoy the challenge of learning to tank well without a power that some consider mandatory, highly recommended, whatever.
Personally, I always take it, and I take it early. I often won't take a second single-target attack until way late in the build, but I want Taunt and the damage aura, if any, pretty much right away. It means that if we have any sort of defender, we can probably slog through some fairly ugly stuff even at low level, as I'm being the focal point for aggro and am getting help from the defender, leaving the blasters and scrappers relatively safe. Being able to do stuff like that is why tanking is fun for me, and the challenge I make out of it is to be able to protect the team at a low level. Besides, Taunt is actually a fun power to me. Watching mobs drop what they were doing to run to me hs never stopped being entertaining. It's a button labelled "make some guys waste their attacks on something they're unlikely to kill". That's pretty shiny to me, and I press it a lot.
That's just what's fun for me, though. The challenge of being effective without it doesn't appeal to me, but if it does to others, more power to them.
Virtue
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Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
I just got my first tanker to 50. It's a Dark Armor/Fire tank that I built to be softcapped to S/L/E/N. I took taunt because I was a bit starved for slots and it seemed like a decent power to have without any extra enhancements added to it. I didn't use it a lot (read: at all), so I considered dropping it for hasten. I was holding enough aggro that my teams stayed alive and everyone was happy. I spent a lot of time hopping around making sure to use Combustion and Fire Sword Circle to grab as much attention as I could, then cluster them up and go to town with all my attacks.
But then I got on an STF with a shield scrapper. I found that I couldn't get aggro, let alone keep it, without taunting. Since then I've kept it, and started using it more often.
Now I don't have to run to the idiot blaster/defender/controller that grabs the wrong mob. I also find taunt to be invaluable for bringing the stubborn ranged mobs close enough to hit with AoEs. This is a way of herding without actually herding. I never lose aggro to scrappers and tankers that don't have taunt. I also learned a nifty trick: when a teammate's HP dips into the orange/red, just clicking on him and using taunt usually grabs the attention of whatever was hitting him. It's a very quick way to save a squishy, much faster than trying to find out what's hitting him and then run to it.
Do I need taunt? No. Is it a convenient tool that I'm happy to have? Yes.
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I understand what you're saying, Aett, but there are a few complications in the Tanker vs Brute comparison. First is Tankers (and most Hero ATs) have a role that they perform very well. While they have auxilerary roles (such as damage), they're not nearly as strong or well defined as their primary. Due to taunt mechanics, as you're well aware, it's becoming easier and easier for other ATs (Brutes/Scrappers to overwhelm Tanker's ability to generate threat. Once that happens, the Tanker has to fall back on its weaker roles.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I like how he justifies not taking Taunt on Brutes with pretty much the same reasons that I gave in my first post here, but then doesn't seem to get the same logic applies to many Tankers.
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Brutes, on the other hand, are normally viewed as a damage AT with aggro holding capabilities. So a Brute not holding any aggro will deal more damage than a Tank (even counting the Fury drop from not holding aggro), meaning their overall group contribution drop is lower. In other words, which would perform better, a group with 4 Tanks OR 3 Tanks/1 Brute OR 2 Tanks/2 Brutes, etc.
To compound things, I think a Brute has superior threat generation to a Tank, all things being equal (no taunt vs no taunt, taunt vs taunt). If a Tanker and a Brute were attacking a mob, the Brute would eventually win since they have the same taunt durations and more damage. (It also means they can hold AV aggro easier than a Tank without Taunt since they have moer threat generation outside of taunt mechanics through damage.)
Dech Kaison sums up my sentiments pretty well (emphasis mine):
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
But then I got on an STF with a shield scrapper. I found that I couldn't get aggro, let alone keep it, without taunting. Since then I've kept it, and started using it more often.
Now I don't have to run to the idiot blaster/defender/controller that grabs the wrong mob. I also find taunt to be invaluable for bringing the stubborn ranged mobs close enough to hit with AoEs. This is a way of herding without actually herding. I never lose aggro to scrappers and tankers that don't have taunt. I also learned a nifty trick: when a teammate's HP dips into the orange/red, just clicking on him and using taunt usually grabs the attention of whatever was hitting him. It's a very quick way to save a squishy, much faster than trying to find out what's hitting him and then run to it. |
Having said that, if someone doesn't want it, it's their perrogative. They may have a different criteria for performance/fun/whatever. Some people may build Tanks for other reasons (farming, AV soloing, etc) where Taunt would be a wasted power.
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I often have discovered that people aren't even targeting what's doing the main bulk of the damage to them. It's alright if you can't acquire a target quick enough but still a gamble. It has always been a Tankers equivalent to Absorb pain in that you can make that crucial save during a sprung ambush and the range on it beats travel powers any day.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I also learned a nifty trick: when a teammate's HP dips into the orange/red, just clicking on him and using taunt usually grabs the attention of whatever was hitting him. It's a very quick way to save a squishy, much faster than trying to find out what's hitting him and then run to it.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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One of the great things about Dark/Fire is that it has great AoEs quite early in comparison to other Tankers. For gauntleting purposes you are bound to hit something, however with both Dark/ and /Fire you rely on being able to hit and I have come across groups that if it were not for taunt I would be whiffing the air whilst perhaps someone is getting creamed. I do recommend build up or something to enter tohit debuff heavy groups.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I just got my first tanker to 50. It's a Dark Armor/Fire tank that I built to be softcapped to S/L/E/N. I took taunt because I was a bit starved for slots and it seemed like a decent power to have without any extra enhancements added to it. I didn't use it a lot (read: at all), so I considered dropping it for hasten.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I didn't use to "seem" to agree at one stage. There was so many people who didn't take taunt, said that they didn't need it, but watching them play said otherwise. I guess people have different standards/expectations. My beef in the taunt arguments is not with those that decide they didn't want it, it's with those that seem to think its a useless power and that anyone taking it is stupid, lazy etc.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Having said that, if someone doesn't want it, it's their perrogative. They may have a different criteria for performance/fun/whatever. Some people may build Tanks for other reasons (farming, AV soloing, etc) where Taunt would be a wasted power.
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To someone used to say about them being Pros and not needing it.
Well define "Pro".
We all have our standards/expectations and I fully expect the average tauntless tanker to not potentially tank as well as those with.
However I am agreeable to choosing for themselves. I'd rather talk about BBQs now than whether someone has it or not, but for those that think they're able to offer the complete tanking package, I really don't think so and never for one second had.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Thanks for the discussion. Definitely two camps on this issue. I want to say that I really appreciate tanks that have taunt, and use it. As I stated at first, none of my brutes have taunt. It seems a lot of the non taunt tankers should be pleased when brutes are available blueside.
As a Fire/Mental/Fire blaster I can draw a ton of agro (has to do with massive killing power). But a blaster is the best half a hero in the game. They got one half of a heroes power, can dish it out but not take it. Their synergistic compliment is the tank. A tank (with taunt) and a blaster working together make one complete hero.
Thank you again.
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Taunt is a tool. Some sets benefit from it more than others.
The only time I suggest someone *really should* take taunt is if it's their first tank, or first time playing a specific set. See if they need it - or just like having it. If they can hold aggro without it, great. They can drop it if they want. Season to taste. I, personally, like having it and will tend to take it at some point on all my tanks. If someone else doesn't - their tank, their choice.
Taunt is a tool that enhances a tanker's natural ability to draw and hold aggro. It also alllows a tanker to grab the aggro of a specific group of targets if necessary.
Whether or not it is required depends solely on one's playstyle and preference. I personally am of the mindset that one can never have too many tools so I always take Taunt. Of course as always, YMMV.
>
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
I miss the old days when the entire tank community would say a collective "yes" or "no" based on what day of the week it was.
Heyas,
Aett, you are right. That is my brute post. But I was not making an arguments why brutes do not need taunt with that post. I was asking if my brute needed taunt for Master strike Forces.
Sarrate pointed out that Brutes and Tanks do two very different jobs. With the exception of the granite brute Sarrate is right. Brutes are super heavy scrappers more than they are tanks. Also, Brutes love agro. To generate it (most brutes forego taunt) we do crazy stuff like running to the next mob and making sure we get the whole alpha. That pumps the rage bar, and fuels the beauty of smash. Even tanks who have a problem taking that alpha generally use that tactic. But enough about brutes, this is a tank post, and brutes are generally not played as tanks.
The reason I posted this originally is I am now playing blasters. My 50 Fire/Mental/Fire has a favorite tactic. It requires a tank with taunt. The tank leads in, getting the spawns attention. I step in right next to the tank (very safe now), I drain Psyche (pumps my end/health regen, then "Nova", pop 2 blues, then start letting loose with the massive AoE that is why Fire/Mental/Fire is so sick. So this 2 person bit of teamwork will finish a spawn off very efficiently. The Tank keeps the agro, even while the blaster is just dealing sick amounts of damage.
In my view a tanker is closer to a controller than a brute. They have one control power, taunt. But when they use it effecively, and they are built to make the most of it, they can completely control a spawn.
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QFT|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
<qr>
Taunt is a tool. Some sets benefit from it more than others. The only time I suggest someone *really should* take taunt is if it's their first tank, or first time playing a specific set. See if they need it - or just like having it. If they can hold aggro without it, great. They can drop it if they want. Season to taste. I, personally, like having it and will tend to take it at some point on all my tanks. If someone else doesn't - their tank, their choice. |
I have a lot of tanks as tank is my favourite AT. I often pick up taunt at 49 if I have a spare slot, but really whether I have it depends on which set I'm playing:
Fire/ (3 50s) - to taste, some of mine have it some don't
Ice/ (3 50s) - none of mine have it, aggro sticks like glue
Stone/ (2 50s) - lack of mobility means that both of mine have it, just makes life easier
WP/ (1) - my one has it, taunt aura just not good enough
Shield/ (1) - I think I took it at 49, not essential
I don't have a 50 invul or dark, but my dark is dark/stone, so the damage aura + fault seems to do the job. The only time I have ever missed taunt was on MoGd PPs which I was missing with my normal attacks where there wasn't an autohit taunt aura.
As for handling extra spawns, taunt hits 5, fireball hits a lot more, so I use the epic to try to take aggro on an extra spawn or run into it auras blazing.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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I'd say that they can completely control some situations. I can't see a tauntless tanker ever beating the best tankers with taunt in a tanking competition. The tauntless ones would be dead.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
In my view a tanker is closer to a controller than a brute. They have one control power, taunt. But when they use it effecively, and they are built to make the most of it, they can completely control a spawn.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I like to think of it as Viaggro.|
Originally Posted by McBoo
Taunt is a tool that enhances a tanker's natural ability to draw and hold aggro.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I'm currently leveling up an Ice/SS tank, and when I started I thought I'd try it without Taunt.
Finally ended up taking it at 32. I don't think I "need" it, but there were plenty of times that I "wanted" it.
Global name: @k26dp
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