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The truth is that there are some players on these boards who already know your limits. You will have flexibilities in doing damage with fireball yes but would I give up my ability to team with practically any mix of powersets in competently doing any part of the game for that? Nope and others might not too. We all make our choices, you are entitled to yours but I wouldn't expect in a trillion years for a tauntless tank to out tank my tanks. Out scrank maybe, tank? Never. |
Originally Posted by dave_p
Wow, that's about the most ironic thing I've read in a while. Those most calling for inflexible builds ("must take Taunt!") are saying the rest of us need to widen our horizons (or put on better glasses, as you put it)? Might wanna try practicing what you preach. For me, I actually takeTaunt on about 1/2 my tanks and use them when appropriate (not nearly as often as some might think), so I at least can see from both sides of the divide. Oh, and it's usually those "other games" that require a tank to be taunt-bot. Again, don't leave your home w/o your healer either.
I think that'll be it for me on this thread. There's a reason why BBQ exists on this board. Memphis dry rub ftw. |
I've scranked the entire STF without a single defender or controller in the team using a Scrapper with confront. Whoever wrote some guide to tanking which included getting some pocket healer wasn't me. Wrong tree.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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That list is ranked based on the ability to hold aggro. I mention debuffs because they increase threat generated vs an aura without a debuff.|
Originally Posted by Sir_Lionheart
I'm just curious, when you say "best" or "worst", are you talking about just the ability to grab and hold aggro, or the other perks the auras provide (damage, debuff, etc.)?
In my experience, I would rank Chilling Embrace at the top, in terms of pure aggro ability. |
Also, the order of the sets in each grouping really isn't that important, imo. I'd put Invuln and Ice in the same ballpark, even if Ice is stronger than Invuln. They're reasonably close. Comparing Invuln to, say, Fire, is a pretty big difference.
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My ice tank does great and he's my only tank without Taunt. Auras + gauntlet + big damage will do wonders for your aggro management. I'll stroll over to a group, running Icicles and Chilling Embrace and drop an Ice Storm. The instant they start to run, I use Footstomp. Ice Storm and Footstomp with Rage and a pile of +damage set bonuses is a sight to behold.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
If you think that you can manage agro for a large team in tough fights without taunt I am all ears. Cause I want to hear how you do it. That way I can use your technique, and then add taunt to make it better.
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If no enemy launches even a SINGLE attack at a teammate, where is there room for improvement?
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I honestly have to see this. What server are you on?
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
My ice tank does great and he's my only tank without Taunt. Auras + gauntlet + big damage will do wonders for your aggro management. I'll stroll over to a group, running Icicles and Chilling Embrace and drop an Ice Storm. The instant they start to run, I use Footstomp. Ice Storm and Footstomp with Rage and a pile of +damage set bonuses is a sight to behold.
If no enemy launches even a SINGLE attack at a teammate, where is there room for improvement? |
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Same could be said about an invuln brute vs a fire tanker against cimerorans, or a defense tanker vs resistance brute vs DE. =P |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Because there are situations where other ATs (Brutes/Scrappers included) can get into trouble. For example, consider a Fiery Aura Brute vs a WP Tank against Cimerorans. The FA Brute is very likely going to have more survivability issues than the WP. Or maybe an an SR Brute vs an Invuln Tanker against DE. That sort of thing.
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| Same thing for AVs, too. What can be annoying is trying to reposition an AV so their cones don't hit/kill squishies (think Scirocco), but you can't do it because a Scrapper has aggro. |
For scirocco... i've yet to see a case where facing makes a difference. He keep spamming pbaoe and the Dust Devils are homing. =P
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Eh, well built Fire Tanks do just fine against the Cimerorans. Brutes usually do, too, of course, but there is probably less room for error with some of them. |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Same could be said about an invuln brute vs a fire tanker against cimerorans, or a defense tanker vs resistance brute vs DE. =P
Why couldn't the scrapper reposition the AV so others don't get killed? That's what i do on mine and i've seen it fairly often. If the scrapper have the aggro, it can do the job equally well then the tanker, for repositionning. For scirocco... i've yet to see a case where facing makes a difference. He keep spamming pbaoe and the Dust Devils are homing. =P |
Scrappers don't usually worry about their positioning much. I do with my Scrappers, but I do know that I am weird in that respect (at least from my own experience, posters on the forums prefer "scrapperlock" and those in game just run in to mobs). Heck, not enough Tanks worry about their positioning enough, for that matter.
There are some tricks to dealing with Scirocco on the STF, but I'll let Sarrate handle those... quite impressive on the STF, that one.
On the thread, aggro management has many tools. I kind of hit on them in the four rules of Tanking in my sig. Aggro management is about timing (getting into a mob first) and positioning, as well as Gauntlet, your taunt aura, and Taunt. I wouldn't want to run without any of them if I'm tanking for a team (though you can do without Taunt for some encounters).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Keep in mind an Invuln Brute would have just as much res as a Fire Tanker. Yes, there will be times where their roles could swap, but I'd say it's more likely to be in the Tanker's advantage than not.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Same could be said about an invuln brute vs a fire tanker against cimerorans, or a defense tanker vs resistance brute vs DE. =P
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Why couldn't the scrapper reposition the AV so others don't get killed? That's what i do on mine and i've seen it fairly often. If the scrapper have the aggro, it can do the job equally well then the tanker, for repositionning.
For scirocco... i've yet to see a case where facing makes a difference. He keep spamming pbaoe and the Dust Devils are homing. =P |
I disagree that a Scrapper is better at repositioning (talking about moving from point A to point B, not just rotating them). The second they jump out of aggro aura range, there is a set amount of time before the AV will lose intrest forcing the Scrapper to start to joust, etc. The Tanker could back away and Taunt. This locks the AV to the Tanker while limiting his range, making them have to move to get into range. Can a Scrapper do it if they want to? Yes, but they won't do it as well.
As for Scirocco - he has the following cones:
Static Discharge - 40 ft range (dmg, end drain)
Desert Wind - 50 ft range (dmg, knockback)
Slice
Headsplitter (two people should pretty much never be hit with this, but including for completeness sake)
Those cones (namely the first two) can do a number on squishies, if they're too close. Scrappers, if they're not IOed or built for survivability, can get chewed up them (and melee cones) as well.
Admittedly different teams can handle different threats - the more protective buffs you have, the less important it becomes.
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If the team wants a scrapper to reposition mobs, they need to cooperate. The Scrapper will have threat, if not actual aggro from a taunt aura, for as long as the scrapper is the only character the enemy sees. The team obviously needs to cooperate to make sure this is so. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I disagree that a Scrapper is better at repositioning (talking about moving from point A to point B, not just rotating them). The second they jump out of aggro aura range, there is a set amount of time before the AV will lose intrest forcing the Scrapper to start to joust, etc.
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Then, it's a matter of staying on top of the threat game for the scrapper. Since the scrapper does high damage and has a higher threat multiplier, this is not difficult, provided that the scrapper can hit at all. This would be the problem with tanking Recluse on a scrapper: when he starts out you can't hit him.
Other major AVs, like Reichsman and Romulus, I've tanked successfully on scrappers. These never become invulnerable for a significant time.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Seriously, in every group you hit, every enemy type, every fight, every mission, every strikeforce, no enemy ever ever is slightly out of position and is agro'd by the blaster or defender instead of you? You do indeed walk with the angels my friend.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
My ice tank does great and he's my only tank without Taunt. Auras + gauntlet + big damage will do wonders for your aggro management. I'll stroll over to a group, running Icicles and Chilling Embrace and drop an Ice Storm. The instant they start to run, I use Footstomp. Ice Storm and Footstomp with Rage and a pile of +damage set bonuses is a sight to behold.
If no enemy launches even a SINGLE attack at a teammate, where is there room for improvement? |
For those of us lesser mortals we use taunt to collect the runners back to our little area of taunt auras so our defenders and blasters have a nice day.
Taunt is a tool in the Tanker's toolbox. Some Tanks use it, some don't. As long as the Tank can keep the heat off of other teammates, either is acceptable.
Personally, as a slower Stone Tanker, Taunt is invaluable to me.
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Yeah, but invuln is half resistance , half defense. =P My point was just that if you want to compare brute vs tanker, at least use the same power set.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Keep in mind an Invuln Brute would have just as much res as a Fire Tanker. Yes, there will be times where their roles could swap, but I'd say it's more likely to be in the Tanker's advantage than not.
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| The Scrapper could, that doesn't mean he will. If you see him (Invuln/Shield Scrapper) pointing dangerous mob(s) towards the team and want to change it, you're stuck if you don't have Taunt. |
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As for Scirocco - he has the following cones: Static Discharge - 40 ft range (dmg, end drain) Desert Wind - 50 ft range (dmg, knockback) Slice Headsplitter (two people should pretty much never be hit with this, but including for completeness sake) Those cones (namely the first two) can do a number on squishies, if they're too close. Scrappers, if they're not IOed or built for survivability, can get chewed up them (and melee cones) as well. |
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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My assersion was that a Tanker (with Taunt) was better at repositioning mobs/AVs compared to a Scrapper. You're replying by saying that if a Scrapper wants to reposition an AV, the team has to cooperate. A Tanker, on the other hand, doesn't require that coordination so therefore a Tanker is better at repositioning. Do you disagree?|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
If the team wants a scrapper to reposition mobs, they need to cooperate. The Scrapper will have threat, if not actual aggro from a taunt aura, for as long as the scrapper is the only character the enemy sees. The team obviously needs to cooperate to make sure this is so.
Then, it's a matter of staying on top of the threat game for the scrapper. Since the scrapper does high damage and has a higher threat multiplier, this is not difficult, provided that the scrapper can hit at all. This would be the problem with tanking Recluse on a scrapper: when he starts out you can't hit him. |
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Other major AVs, like Reichsman and Romulus, I've tanked successfully on scrappers. These never become invulnerable for a significant time.
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...I still have no idea how I held aggro.
Hey, I can see how you held agro (you hurt the hell out of him), the real question is how were there no deaths lol.
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If he is compelled to hit you but can't hit you with an attack then he will use other attacks. If he can't hit you with EMP pulse or Dust Devils then he will be forced to check if he can hit you with other attacks. If you don't allow him to be able to hit you with it and if you don't allow him to see anyone else as a greater threat in range of it then you can rule the use of those two attacks out. It's not really something a tauntless tank can achieve.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
For scirocco... i've yet to see a case where facing makes a difference. He keep spamming pbaoe and the Dust Devils are homing. =P
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Oh, well in that case, the Tanker always wins. Could be Invuln vs Cimerorans or Invuln vs Psi Clockwork, the Tanker has higher def, res, hp, and heal (since it's based of base hp).|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Yeah, but invuln is half resistance , half defense. =P My point was just that if you want to compare brute vs tanker, at least use the same power set.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
You'll have the same problem if it's a tanker that points dangerous mobs towards the team. And if he have taunt, you might not even be able to steal the aggro with taunt.
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To which you said "the Scrapper can reposition them too." Yes, they can, but it's not a guarantee they will. Again, I care that they have aggro because I don't know they'll reposition them.
You're right, a Tanker could do something like point the AVs towards the team and get one killed. That wasn't the perspective I was talking about, though.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
That doesn't answer my question. Whirling Sword and Dust Devils are more then enough to 2 shots some squishies. That's why i meant facing doesn't really matter. He'll still hurt the team, no matter where he's looking. Any way to prevent that?
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Dust Devils don't really do a lot of damage. The worst part about them is def debuffs for the Tanker.
Whirling Sword, while it deals a lot of damage, isn't that threatening to "squishies" (ie: ranged characters) because they're so fare away. Dangerous to Scrappers, yes.
The most dangerous AoE that Scirocco has is EM Pulse. It has a gigantic radius, heavy damage (as much as Hack), end drain, and a hold. If a squishy is hit by that, the next hit is pretty much a KO.
Which leads me back to the cones. If the only AoE a ranged squishy has to deal with is EM Pulse, they're fairly safe. It may be scary for a moment, but you'll have time to heal. If positioned arbitrarily, however, he could EM Pulse, then follow it up with a cone while they're still held / low on health. Same thing with a Scrapper. The difference between only taking damage from Whirling Sword / EM Pulse, to taking both of those AND Static Discharge, Desert Wind, and Slice is large.
Does that make more sense / answer the question?
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I meant before the towers were down so I couldn't hit him. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Hey, I can see how you held agro (you hurt the hell out of him), the real question is how were there no deaths lol.
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Besides, with a well slotted Taunt (~95% taunt enhancement and a recharge of around 5s) and I've still seen him (infrequently) run away from me when the team starts attacking. He didn't budge from my Invuln. That was a while ago, so there may have been AI changes, etc, since then.As for no deaths... FF + Emp with PBU+Fort and I was eating a t3 purple at the same time (tried to go with an orange till red was down, too). This was before we knew how much +tohit the Blue Tower gave him (many postulated it was in the "yellow" tower, too). During the one brief period that Recluse hit me with my oranges down (and DP down), he railed me to 1hp twice in a row. Heh, good times.
Note: My Invuln didn't have the Fighting pool.
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I've always had confront on my Scrappers. In doing Recluse with the towers up he is easier to keep with it. You can keep him without confront, just by being close however I've noticed that some people can attract him as they're doing damage to a tower. Watching their buffs just before he goes for them you can see why that possibly is. They've effectively raised their threat value. It could be a case of them running effect enemy toggles then using soul drain as well as being a really strong damage dealer. Without confront you can lose his attention to such. With confront you can still lose attention just not as easily. It's mostly in the slotting, it's got to be very well slotted, maybe the more so depending on whose in team.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
I meant before the towers were down so I couldn't hit him.
Besides, with a well slotted Taunt (~95% taunt enhancement and a recharge of around 5s) and I've still seen him (infrequently) run away from me when the team starts attacking. He didn't budge from my Invuln. That was a while ago, so there may have been AI changes, etc, since then.As for no deaths... FF + Emp with PBU+Fort and I was eating a t3 purple at the same time (tried to go with an orange till red was down, too). This was before we knew how much +tohit the Blue Tower gave him (many postulated it was in the "yellow" tower, too). During the one brief period that Recluse hit me with my oranges down (and DP down), he railed me to 1hp twice in a row. Heh, good times. Note: My Invuln didn't have the Fighting pool. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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No, I don't disagree at all. The tanker can force aggro with Taunt and can debuff range. Not sure how effective the range debuff is on AV class enemies, but since Taunt is autohit, Recluse's defense is not an issue. (Actual phasing or invulnerability like Aeon or Master Illusionists is still a problem with Taunt|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
My assersion was that a Tanker (with Taunt) was better at repositioning mobs/AVs compared to a Scrapper. You're replying by saying that if a Scrapper wants to reposition an AV, the team has to cooperate. A Tanker, on the other hand, doesn't require that coordination so therefore a Tanker is better at repositioning. Do you disagree?
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I actually tanked Recluse on my DM/Invuln Scrapper back around... Sept 2007 from start to finish with no deaths (and no debuff anchors on Recluse). ...I still have no idea how I held aggro. |
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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If you've ever checked out the level of resistances AVs have. Resistance to range debuffs has never been a strong point. This was where Stormies Hurricane was always good. Some people would have a Stormie in team, be clueless to their value, then still need to find another defender.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
No, I don't disagree at all. The tanker can force aggro with Taunt and can debuff range. Not sure how effective the range debuff is on AV class enemies, but since Taunt is autohit, Recluse's defense is not an issue. (Actual phasing or invulnerability like Aeon or Master Illusionists is still a problem with Taunt
You just told me: no debuff anchors. So you were the most convenient target. I suspect you tried to at least pull Recluse away from the teammates working the towers. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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derr... Obviously not. My point is that, the MAJORITY of the time, adding Taunt would accomplish nothing. And I certainly don't use a tauntless tank for something like the STF, or any Master run, or Hamidon.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Seriously, in every group you hit, every enemy type, every fight, every mission, every strikeforce, no enemy ever ever is slightly out of position and is agro'd by the blaster or defender instead of you?
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I'm just saying that Taunt is NOT irreplaceable. Also, please note, I already stated earlier in this thread that most of my tanks DO have Taunt. But the right build, if you don't try something like the STF with it, really doesn't need Taunt.
Frankly, I'm equally amazed by the extremists at both positions: "All tanks must have Taunt." vs "No tank ever needs Taunt."
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Perspective is a funny thing. You spend all your time running high level TFs you probably insist on taunt.
Run a lot solo/farms/radios you likely have little use for it.
Personally I always take it, but then again I miss gauntlet when I'm on a scrapper or brute.
Something about the zen motion of the spawn AI when you zoom the camera all the way out.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
You know, I've been PuG'ing a bit more than lately these last few days and have a bit of a fresh perspective on this. Actually, two.
First, as the tank: I tanked a sorta crappy team on an AV hunt. 2 rads on the team, plenty of damage, but for some reason mobs weren't melting away as usual, which meant I had to manage the aggro a LOT more than usual (AVs took forever too, as in I could've soloed them w/my F/Rad faster). Also a Kheld w/lots of KB causing adds and thus deaths. I realized what some of the posters are saying--on mediocre teams, Taunt helps. It doesn't fix all, cuz at X8, you're already pushing the aggro-cap, and aggroing 2 groups (or more!) means you have all sorts of aggro bleed no matter how much you spam Taunt, which goes back to my earliest point--every toon must learn to manage their own aggro. Still, I concede, on crappy teams, Taunt is almost necessary. Happily, I rarely run on crappy teams.
Then I was on an all-damage (5 scrappers, 2 tanks, 1 blaster) ITF and the Rom fight would've been really, really hard if I didn't have Taunt. Yes, I used Taunt--as I said before, about 1/2 my tanks have Taunt, and I use it when warranted. That situation warranted it. Actually, the single biggest tool that whole TF was Burn--I'm guessing the cysts, the computer & all AV fights would've taken 2x as long w/o me spamming Burn. It also kept me alive since the Romans were debuffing my (usually capped) def to the groud (yes, S/L def-capped Fire tank ftw, cuz god knows the Invul tank was useless). FWIW, we still finished the ITF in <1hr, tho w/even a smidgen of debuff support, we would've done it in 1/2 the time.
Here's the flip side tho--when I'm not playing the tank, esp on one of my controllers or defenders, I'm always wanting the tank to push the pace. Another PuG where I'm playing my Plant/Cold controller w/a decent group, but where the tanks were playing timid and the group as a whole wanted to do things the "right" way, i.e. stick together, tank goes in first, maybe pull the hard rooms, etc. Except there was zero need. We had 3 controllers and at least one of the other controllers knew what he was doing. I had all the melee at or near the def cap and every crowd was locked down fast after aggro. All I needed the tank(s) to do was run in and grab the alpha--I'd have the crowd 95% locked down 2s after, and dying very fast 10s after. That's me alone, and I had 2 more controllers backing me up. Oh and blasters to melt the mobs even faster. Hell, we split up a few times and whichever group I ended up with was still mowing through x8 spawns like butter.
(Edit to add: I know some ppl will point out that this might be because I'm playing a controller, but I assure you my perspective doesn't change much when playing a defender or blaster. When playing a scrapper, I don't much care what anyone else is doing since I'm too busy killing things. Also, yes, I concede this is far more true of higher lvl play (35+) than lower.)
So that's my 2nd perspective from a support toon--I don't need the tanks to Taunt for me. Hell, the last thing I want is to see a tank Taunt from range and grab 5 paltry mobs, possibly cause scatter. Yes, proper tanks w/Taunt won't do that, but really, once they've run into the spawn, I could care less what they do; as long as they're taking the alpha, those mobs are going down *fast*. On special occasions (STFs, broken ITFs, etc), sure, it's good to know the tank has Taunt, but for most of the game, it's not even close to necessary *for my toons*. I realize not everyone plays this way, and I see why a lot of ppl almost require tanks (for themselves or teammates) to have Taunt. I do wished they could see what the other side looks like, cuz I'll tell you it's a lot more fast paced, more rewarding and plain fun.
Anyway, that's really all I have to say on this topic, now and forever. Peace, and happy gaming.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
As pointed out earlier, taunt is a tool. Is it the right tool on the Control heavy team you just mentioned? Not to stand at a distance and pull. Any decent tank will adjust their tactics to match their team's abilities. If a team I am tanking for is boiling crap, I do just about what you said, I leap into the middle and grab agro, knowing that in 10 seconds I need to be in the center of another group. I will say that when I leap into any group, I taunt as my lead move. Not saying you have to, if I was running Super Strength I would no doubt lead with footstomp, cause it's fun. But with my build Taunt is the fastest/largest area/surefire way to grab attention. That my toggles will have only a few seconds to damage/confuse/fear my enemies is something I will have to get over. Maybe I will console myself with all the experience/treasure/strike forces the team boils through.
Having said all that, on the other end of the PUG spectrum, sometimes taunt is the only thing I can use to save some teams from trying to destroy themselves. And sometimes even that is not enough.
Dave, I don't think people (or many people) are actually saying "must take taunt." I hear more of a chorus of "in my opinion, when running tanktroller, a combination of aura and taunt works best" to severely paraphrase a lot of the last conversations. Maybe I am a bit off, but that's how it seems to me.
Now if you want a Scranker, do as you please. If you want to run a true artist at managing agro for a large team, a lot of these posts have useful information. Some of it is researched diligently, some is from long play experience.
If you think that you can manage agro for a large team in tough fights without taunt I am all ears. Cause I want to hear how you do it. That way I can use your technique, and then add taunt to make it better.