Taunt. Why not?

I am now leveling a dark/dark tank. At 29th right now. I took Taunt at 25 when I respec'd the toon to get Combat Jumping (to put Karma KB prot in). Before that I did not have taunt, and got shadow maul. I attacked a lot, fought my end issues, and tried to hold agro and kill.

When I respec'd at 25 I concentrated on my toggles and taunt. I am really glad I did. This tank is made to sit and taunt. There is a damage aura, a fear aura mag 2, and a stun aura mag 2. I am starting to research how to I/O to maximize the build now. I just got the AoE attack that buffs my damage. I cannot wait to get the AoE end drain. My end issues are not bad now, but I am running 3 SO end red in each toggle and one in each attack. When I I/O am hoping to smooth that out as well.

Not the most sturdy of tanks non-I/O'd, but I am happy. I see the potential to be incredible team agro control, and even do respectable ST damage for AV tanking. Already I have been tanking for 8 person teams running +4 radio missions. It was hard, but doable. Jut taunt, and heal, and attack as a secondary function. Primarily I try to keep the team safe and stay on my feet.

No one here should be able to argue that taunt isnt the most effective aggro management tool without using lots of emoticons. There is a reason why taunt is in every tanker secondary. It is the single most effective tool for grabbing and maintaining aggro. Auto hit, AOE, ranged, low end cost, effective without slotting. Can its function be performed reasonably well with a combination of other powers and slots? Sure. Does it decrease the margin for error on the team? Undoubtedly.

I dont think every toon needs the most effective power for the perceived designed role of the AT.

The question really isnt do tanks need taunt? (because of course you dont really need anything COH related) The question is "what is the role of this archetype in a team setting?" If we assume that the role of a tank is to grab and hold aggro the question becomes "Is there a more effective power than taunt to accomplish that role." The answer is No.

People may argue that all tanks dont need the most effective aggro management tool because it doesn't fit their play style. They might also argue that in their opinion the role of a tank isnt necessarily to grab and hold aggro. Players might say that for them, air superiority is more fun to take than taunt. All are valid points. The fact remains all things being equal a taunting tank can grab and hold aggro easier and more reliably than one without. Whether or not that makes a difference to you or your team, or effects your enjoyment of the game are entirely different matters.

I wouldnt go down this road Hew. We established way early in this discussion that not all players who roll up tanks do it so they can do the perceived job of the tank in COH. Scroll through the pages for a lively discussion :-)

Personally, I'm a fan of Taunt and think it's a very valuable tool when tanking. I have it on all my Tanks except my Ice/Stone. But I judge Tanks by their playstyle, not their builds, IO bonuses, or whether they have Taunt or not.

Lately, I've played with a lot of Tanks who just plain sucked; some had Taunt, some didn't. What makes a good Tank is to have the proper mindset, and only then will you learn how to utilize all your tools for aggro control. If someone is an all-out Scranker, whether it is by choice, inexperience or inability to grasp the tanking concept, then having Taunt will not magically make them a good Tank. Likewise, a Tauntless Tank, or even Scrapper, who is diligent in using taunt auras and attacks to engage entire groups, can be a highly effective at tanking.

Best thing to do when on pug's is to observe how the first few fights go and adjust your tactics accordingly. There are too many team variables that come into play to get hung up on whether one player has one power from their AT.

I agree wholeheartedly Sir. I personally don't like the damage on a tank (me, personally) so I do not even understand why someone runs a Scranker. I have tried, I cannot grok it. I love the armors on tanks, and I have come to enjoy the tanktrollers role in this game. But if someone wants/needs a Scranker instead of a Brute/Scrapper/Blapper, I hope they enjoy, and they probably do not need/want taunt.

While Taunt has limitations and cannot be leaned upon to handle all aggro, I think it's the most powerful and flexible.

I say powerful because auras/gauntlet are easily overriden by Brutes or Scrappers with taunt auras. Taunt, especially well slotted, can override those. (If the Brute/Scrapper is also Taunting/Confronting, though, forget about it. This is rare, though.)

I say it's the most flexible because it works when auras/gauntlet fails (AVs/GMs), works at range, [edit: is autohit,] and has a range debuff.

Not the only tool or necessarily the best tool for every situation, but one I don't like being without.

I know how the taunt aura mechanics work. Yes, the damage auras require a to hit (except Pots, which also has a slow auto-hit component). Still, most tanks will agree, the weakest aura is WP's RTTC, which is auto-hit. Even taking that weak-a**ed aura, try turning it off and use only Taunt in a x6~8 crowd, then turn it on and don't use Taunt, doing all else equally (punchvoking, etc). There's no way you acquire/manage aggro better w/just Taunt.

Again, against single mobs or small groups, Taunt can be better, but so can just punching them. If you have problems keeping the aggro of 2 or 3 mobs, you've got bigger issues than Taunt, or the lack thereof. AV/GM fights are a bit of an exception, though I've never had problems keeping their attention w/o Taunt (tho, of course, I cycle through it vs AV/GMs on my tanks w/Taunt).

In truth this is an interesting sub-discussion. Most of this topic seemed to have settled into Scranker lore vs Tanker Lore. Now if you want to tank, but thought your auras would handle it all, this line of the discussion is for you. Or you want to lead tank, thought taunt was enough to handle it and so chose a poor aura tank, beware. Oh, and to bring that into focus, any rundown on which tankers have best taunt auras, which worst? Anyways, the rule is to truly "tank" jump in the middle of the mob, while taunting, let your auras work, and taunt runners/far away portion of the same spawn. Your team will love you. When they have eaten that group, rinse, repeat.

Taunt is the best way to grab that alpha you just mentioned. As far as setting up the baddies for AoEs, I have to ask one question. If I (as a tank) have 17 baddies trying to play king of the hill on my head, can you think of a better way for them to be set up to take AoE damage? When I spam taunt, and run my 3 agro auras, I tend to get some attention. You may believe this is not the most effective way to tank. That is cool. I happen to love it. I will give you two great reasons. 1) It works okay with bad teams. 2) It works wonderful with super hot teams.

Powers should individually add flexibility. Some form or another. Taunt adds flexibility in ways the aura can't and the aura adds flexibility in ways taunt doesn't. In having both your potentially making a more effective taunt controller and through redirection and replacement of fire a good battlefield dictator. Now if you can't see much point of one of them then maybe you never needed to, but that is in my experience one slim maybe. Most people in my opinion need better glasses as there was always the potential for a tanker to be better battlefield dictator with both than without one. However we can all choose to build how we want.

The worse thing someone could do is expose their own limitations from saying taunt doesn't do anything and the second worse thing is to have only a couple of uses for it - that's still showing limitations. Alot of limits come from peoples definition of a Tanker in other games, not this game.

Nitpicks:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarrate Best Shield / Against All Odds - Autohit, 1s pulse, 25% longer duration, debuff. (Also includes a damage buff which increases threat from attacks.) Invulnerability / Invincibility - Autohit, 1s pulse, 25% longer duration. Ice / Chilling Embrace - Autohit, 0.5s pulse, multiple debuffs. (Ice also has Icicles.)

I'd put Ice on top w/o question. Shortest pulse and Icicle to stack. It's noticably better than Invinc, which is also fantastic. The shorter pulse helps a lot, esp w/the type of playstyle I've been encouraging.

Quote:

Middle Dark, Fire, Stone - Accuracy check, 2s pulse, damage. Some have debuffs / multiple auras.

Pots is also noticeably better than the 3 (you forgot Elec) pure-damage auras, because of its autohit slow, which I think is still a 2s pulse, but seems to grabs mobs a whole lot better/faster.

Quote:

Worst Willpower / Rise to the Challenge - Autohit, 1s pulse, debuff, exceptionally short (1.25s vs 13.5s)

No arguments there,

As for the rest, we can argue specific cases all day, but bottom line, we simply view tanks a little differently. I truly believe your way works very well, and can respect your take on tanks; I play them a bit differently, but it works for me and my teams--even on PuG TFs, though I'll never run a PuG (Mo)STF. Really, that's all I care about.