Taunt. Why not?

Just a few notes that kind of touch on all of these:

• If you're playing a Tank with a strong taunt aura (Ice, Invuln, Shield), then you'll miss Taunt less than other primaries.
  
• If you're teaming with another taunt capable character (any Brute, Invuln/Shield Scrappers), it's highly possible / probable they will steal aggro from mobs.
  
• If you're fighting an AV with either of the above and you don't have Taunt, you won't be holding aggro. Their threat generation will completely outstrip yours.
  
• Taunt is effected by the Purple Patch, so higher level AVs will shorten the duration of taunt effects. Keep in mind that Gauntlet / taunt auras are already not guaranteed to apply when fighting AVs. (This is very important for, say, the STF. Good luck holding aggro without it.)

In my opinion, you can't tank the spectrum of the game without it. Whenever the game throws you a curve ball (ie: taunt capable characters, multiple AVs, wanting to reposition an AV without losing aggro, etc), you're stuck. One of the worst feelings as a Tank, to me, is being stuck fighting an AV/GM and being relegated to a damage role.

Having said that, depending on what you expect out of your Tank (as well as who you team with, playstyle, etc). It's something you'll have to try for yourself. I tried to play without Taunt, but I couldn't do it, even in regular missions.

Obviously, I'm biased towards Taunt.

Personally, I like to take some chicken breasts out a few hours before I start cooking, and place them in a container of water mixed with garlic salt and seasoned salt. Shake it up a bit and let it sit, and the salts help flavor the meat before going to the grill. As for the sauce, a local store near me sells some of the best bbq sauce, so I'll slap some of that on the chicken before throwing it on the grill, and will reapply during the grilling process as necessary.

So, what you want, is for tanks to taunt so that you, the blaster/brute don't have to think about how to play more safely? Because that's what you sound like your saying.

Some tankers don't feel like letting others have all the fun while we just taunt-bot the enemies for you. I know, I know, that sounds impossible! I mean, why would we want to do more than just sit there and spam a button when you're having all the fun doing the damage? But hell, some people are just plain kooky like that. As one of those crazy sonsofbeetches out there that likes to do more then just taunt, allow me to explain myself.

I can build and play a tanker that doesn't have taunt. I can even keep capped aggro with said tanker. Now, if you choose to aggro something above that aggro cap I have on me, then by all means, feel free. But it's your problem at that point. Not mine. While you sweat the extra aggro you managed to pull, I'll be killing at a decently steady pace since I've managed to hold the aggro cap and put out decent damage.

Granted, sometimes I do make a tank that has taunt. But you know what I've noticed? Blasters and other characters can still get killed by their own bad play style despite the extra power I picked up. So who's not using better synergy in that case?

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Letting the DPS go all out makes the team more efficient, a good tank knows that his damage is always going to be poor and does his job so the others can do theirs. Otherwise that tank would be better off as a scrapper.

Bringing the aggro cap into this is irrelevent, if you are at the aggro cap then people have to be careful even if every power you have is a taunt.

But if you aren't at the aggro cap (And there is no way you will always be there) having Taunt is pretty much the safest way you can pull the aggro away from the squishies without running around like a headless chicken.

Sitting in a pile with 16 mobs round you is very easy without Taunt, its not you being an awesome player able to do it. But when the situation doesn't let you get them all close to you (Maybe an immob happy 'troller) then Taunt becomes your friend. Taunt also makes it that much quicker to get the mobs round you in the first place.

Overall there is no situation where I would think "Damn I wish I didn't have Taunt", but there are lots of situations the other way around.

Also Taunt sets get some great set bonus'

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Yes, heaven forbid the Tanker have fun. As long as the team is surviving, what does it matter if he has Taunt or not?


Which is exactly why it IS relevant. If you can't handle any aggro whatsoever, then you're going to have problems in the game, unless the Tanker does nothing but Tank, which isn't his job. Notice how his secondary is full of attacks. The Tanker can use them, you know. If the Tanker is at his aggro cap, then having Taunt is useless for the most part. If he isn't, the other tools at his disposal can hold aggro. Does the power Taunt make it a little easier? Yes. But it is not the only tool that he can use.

If I LIKE running around like a headless chicken, and can hold aggro efficiently while doing so, then I don't need Taunt, do I? Again, it comes down to the Tanker being able to hold the aggro, with or without Taunt.

So then it is the Tankers job to make up for the mistakes of others? Why is that? Also, Taunt does very little to get the mobs around you in the first place, compared to a good AoE attack.

Which may be true for you. For me, it may be that I wanted another attack (which generates Threat, look at that!), or maybe some more defenses. If I can put Taunt into a build, I likely will. If not, I will still do everything I can to hold the aggro.

Which are not dependant on the Tanker actually USING Taunt, mind you.



Look, the thing is this: Taunt is a great tool for generating aggro. It is not the only tool. As long as the Tanker can do what you call his "job," whether he has Taunt or not, then it shouldn't matter.

Wrong and wrong. Tanker damage is not poor. In fact, I have quite a few tanks that can melt through mobs at a very good pace. Now, it's ok if you don't want to play your tank like that. To each their own. But it doesn't make a player a bad tank because they've decided to control aggro and contribute to the damage. By your rationale, one can easily say "Letting the DPS of all teammates go all out makes the team more efficient." Because tankers can still provide high enough DPS. If you don't believe so, you need to speak to those tank who can solo AVs (sans temp powers).

No, it's relevant. Let's say I've got a group of 10 around me. The Blaster looks at another group of 10, and blasts. Well, I can jump over there fast enough without taunt and grab 7 more, but that last 3 aren't my responsibility. Nor were the other 7 (if the blaster chooses to act like a headless chicken), I just don't see any point in dead team mates.

So, I can't be a headless chicken, but others can? No. Team synergy requires everyone playing smart. Not just the tank. Don't expect the tank to make up for your (this is a general you) bad play style. If you insist on the tank being the aggro manager, then you better be able to follow his aggro choices.

I prefer to control as much aggro as I can and letting the team deciding what extra aggro they want to control. If someone's wants to go willy-nilly without thinking, they can join another team where the tank babysits their every move.

Again, an immob happy troller is an irresponsible controller (depening on group situations). You can't expect the tank to work with you, if you refuse to work with the tank. Well, you can. But you'll be considered a hypocritical tool for acting that way. Maybe you're not aware of this, but some tanks require mobs around them for their survival. A controller who won't allow a tank to have mobs around isn't being a team player.

No, but there are ones where a tanker may say "Damn I wish I had room for Physical Perfection/one more attack/another pool power/anything else" and for some tanks, dropping taunt is a complete possibility without dropping their performance on a team. You have no moral high ground to expect they keep it.

Which can be placed in any secondary power.

Look, some people/buids can do just fine without using taunt. Some can't. Don't generalize them all by demanding they need it when they all don't. Asking the tank to bend over for your play style isn't being a team player. If you want him to control all the aggro so you can safely let loose without thinking, then let him do aggro his way.

It is all about ambition. I don't just want to have my tank let the team survive, I want my tank to let the team survive on an MoSTF, and for that I need Taunt.

Also I don't know what about using Taunt is not fun, I only use it once, when leaping into a mob, and then occasionally if a squishy gets aggro or there is an ambush. It's not like it kills the experience for me and I don't get how it would for you?

I would think using all those nice attacks in the secondary and running about are not really compatible. Taunt the mobs furthest away and pound on those gathering by your feet. At least that is how I do it, though I would make a quick run by every mob initially.

Tanks don't get many good ranged AoE attacks though, especially at level 10. Also if you sit about letting other players die instead of doing something about it your teams must really move slow. If all players help each other out then the team moves much faster.

As a tank you have the tools to help those mistakes not be a problem.

I just made an Invuln/Energy tank and can make a smooth attack chain from 2 attacks. There comes a point when you don't need that extra attack, and I would struggle to find a tank where I can't fit Taunt in.

True, but we can't really make people good players, the best we can do is give them the right tools.

True enough, but as pointed out it is only enough for the majority of the content which is fairly basic. Add in any real challenges and Taunt becomes much more useful.

Like Sarrate said I would hate to see anyone tank the STF without Taunt. And personally I wouldn't build a tank if I wasn't thinking along those lines, it is about ambition and being the best you can, not just being good enough.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Tanker damage is poor, being able to solo AV's is more about sitting there for ages whittling them down. If you care more about damage than holding aggro role a /Shield or /Invuln scrapper and do more damage while holding the same aggro.

No it is still irrelevent, bringing in an idiot who shoots the wrong mob just goes to show your arguement is weak. Also even in that case a good taunt would bring 5/6 of those 10 over to you and take you 1.67 seconds, the blaster then only has 4 to handle.

If you leap out of your mob then unless you have a very good taunt aura (And only 3 sets do) the mobs your just lept away from will be free of your influence very quickly.

True but they happen all the time and I would rather just deal with it using a simple Taunt than have to educate or kick everyone that did that.

Whats moral's got to do with it? All my tanks have Taunt so technically I do have the moral high ground

I am also yet to see a tank that would be worse off for taking Taunt.

Good choice of words "Just fine". Personally I like to be better than fine, I like to be good. Taunt makes my tanks better in more situations so I take it and I use it.

I know this arguement will go on forever though, as they always do. So we may as well agree to disagree

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Well, that's what you think. Try going without it and have the ambition of overcoming your need for taunt. As an Ice/ tank. I can run very quickly to each group and hold their aggro. With CJ and hurdle and plenty of slow resist, I have no issue gathering scattered groups. You might try it sometime and push past your comfort zone. Who knows, you may even like it. It should at least be a new challenge for you (this time it's a specific you).


You're making a lot of assumptions here, princess (read that like Han Solo uses the word). I won't speak for Aett, but my play style with my usual team, and many PUGs is to herd up a group. If this is a well rounded team, they'll have them locked down in no time and once half the herd is gone, I'm off hunting down the next herd so that it's ready when my team finishes. No slow down for the team. Sure, they had to wait a little bit for that first herd, but we all played like a team and cleared the map pretty damn fast.

But maybe we did that because we're looking outside the small confined boxes you keep relegating ATs to on an individual level.

[quote]I just made an Invuln/Energy tank and can make a smooth attack chain from 2 attacks. There comes a point when you don't need that extra attack, and I would struggle to find a tank where I can't fit Taunt in.[/qoute]

With a smooth 2-attack chain from Energy, I can see why you think tanker DPS has to be low. Hey, if that's the way you like to build them, then do so. But for me, it's boring and slow. Especially if I'm soloing. Don't expect a lot of others to want that.

Doesn't anyone who solo's an AV sit their for ages? The point is that you have to have high DPS to overcome the regen of an AV. If a tank can obtain this, then it's not so poor.

But that's the thing, you keep bringing up team synergy. You're big argument is team synergy. It doesn't come from just a tank. And certainly not if he has one power. In comes from everyone playing smart, and playing together. Demanding taunt means you expect yourself to make the mistakes too much. That makes you (general you) an idiot.

We're not saying some tanks couldn't get a lot of taunt, after all WP tanks have weak aggro for their primary. No, we're just saying demanding from all tanks is silly, rude and trollish.

You misunderstand. Moral high ground doesn't necessarily have to do with morals. It's in reference to your superiority-complex which exudes from almost every statement you've made.

Weak argument. I've never seen a tank worse off for achieving a 60% defense. It doesn't mean it's needed.

Wow, splitting hairs on semantics. That's an even better argument. By "Just fine," I can assure you that I have no issues with my tanks. Whether they have taunt or not. We're not agreeing to disagree, if you insist on saying those tanks without taunt are bad tanks, or can't be good tanks (or even great tanks). You're just being ignorant.

Running through groups as I mentioned above is something I do. Once. I get the aggro on me just like you do and I keep it on me just like you do. But using Taunt means I can take a slightly faster route through the mobs, and I can catch runners or incomings, or AV's whereas you can't as easily.

Being an Ice tank means you can jump in and out of mobs, but not all tanks can do that, so while you can hold group aggro well enough without taunt, I still doubt you can do the same with AV's, which is the only time a tank is ever really needed anyway.

I haven't seen anyone herd in a long time, it really has no place anymore since most groups are close enough to fit into a single AoE already, and herding 2 mobs is useless due to AoE caps. Steamrollering 1 mob at a time is far more efficient, but then you don't need a tank for that at all.

I also have an abundance of scrappers should I ever feel the need for damage, and my Elec/Shield scrapper would match your Ice tank for running ahead and herding (And surviving), but would also kill the mob before the team catches up.

Actually that smooth 2-attack chain with an Energy Transfer thrown in when available is the best attack chain Energy can make (I am pretty sure). I have no need for another attack that isn't as good as my current ones. I guess your dismissal of only having a short attack chain isn't an indication of your game knowledge? Which might explain why you still haven't commented on how you tank the STF without Taunt or reposition AV's in the purple patch as Sarrate said.

I put all AT's in their place because that is there place for a reason. Tanks are good at holding aggro, and if I wasn't going to do a mission with incomings or something out of the ordinary where I needed someone to manage aggro I wouldn't bother inviting a tank. Just like I wouldn't like a scrapper with Confront who skipped half his attacks and claims he can tank, it can be done but why didn't he just roll a tank?

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

I am not knocking being able to solo an AV, but I am saying it isn't why anyone invites a tank to the team. Also if you have that kind of single target DPS sit still and use it, don't run about wasting it. Taunt the mobs that need taunting and kill whatever is stupid enough to come close.

Yes it does come from playing smart but it comes just as much from adapting. If you have Taunt you can adapt better than if you don't. If Taunt was a 3rd tier power in a power pool that you wasted 2 picks to get I would understand not taking it, but since it is in your primary I don't.

Oh I would never demand it, I wouldn't even kick a tank for skipping all his armor because each to his own. But I would never recommend not getting it.

I knew what you meant I was just being ... something.

I do tend to have that superiority complex thing going on (Only when I write for some reason, guess its the anonimity), so I apologise if I have come across as rude or anything.

While I have seen several builds worse off with too much defence I get your point, but it is wrong, because getting that 60% defence means sacrificing something, but taking Taunt in I would guess 99% of cases doesn't sacrifice anything, and if going for defence on a toon I would actually say helps with the build due to set bonus'.

Sorry, you just happened to say a very similar thing to the poster above you so I thought I would clarrify my point.

I AM saying that not taking Taunt prevents you from being a good tank in the situations where a tank is most needed. You can be a good tank against most mobs, but that isn't hard. The hard thing for tanks is AV's etc, where Taunt is almost a necessity.

Imagine an AV fight without Taunt, that Dark/Shield scrapper next to you would rip aggro away from you in no time, if you took Taunt he wouldn't. That is the difference between a good tank in most situations and a good tank in all situations.

I repeat, I would never judge someone for not taking it, nor would I kick anyone or mark them down. But I use these forums for getting the best advice, and I 100% believe taking Taunt is the best thing to do. It wouldn't really be the tank signature power otherwise.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Again, no one's saying some tanks can't get help from Taunt. We're just saying not all tanks need it, nor do they suffer for not having it. Taunt does cause you to sit still for a second, so the time you save by not running from group to group (which is 2-3 at most before the cap), isn't all that much.

I'd argue that a Tank isn't needed for an AV. And if a tank is needed, then neither was his taunt. No AT is required in this game. There's enough blending between ATs to allow for this.

You have your play style, I have mine. Just because you haven't seen someone herd in a while doesn't mean that its not happening on a regular basis. In fact, I've been on plenty of teams where both tanks herd independently and the team goes from tank to tank clearing groups. Everyone has fun and the map is cleared quickly. It's just as efficient as the next way of playing.

By the by, herding two mobs isn't useless. Its not like the AI makes sure all AoEs hit only the same 16 foes. And this is the second time you've argued not needing a tank (non-AV situations and steamrolling). Again, if the tank isn't needed, neither is his taunt.

In my defense, you neglect to mention what 2 powers you're using, while earlier stating that tanker DPS is poor. There's strong enough reason to believe why you'd say that if your fine with using fewer powers. EM's strong hitters are pretty slow, so I'm guessing their not part of your "smooth" attack chain.

As for AVs. I maintain their aggro as much as needed on all my tanks. Those with, or without Taunt.

Again, if the tank isn't that necessary in your eyes, I don't see why Taunt should be mandatory for all tanks.

Ok, maybe I'm just reading you wrong. I'll just mark that up to textual formats. I'm going to calm down myself.

Oh, you'd be surprised. Its very possible to get over defensed without sacrificing too much on attacks. Spending the influence would be the real waste.

I get where you're coming from now. On this, I can agree to disagree. It's very rare someone takes the aggro from my tanks who don't have taunt on an AV. Rare enough to not make it worth the worry. That's just my experience. Some builds just don't permit it, and I can agree with that.

It's the fact that's it's possible to lose aggro from an AV without taunt that I think is the real issue here. I think that's a real design flaw in the game, and it's the only reason threads like this persistently pop up. It gives a misconception of how tanks "should" be played by newer players, and it's unfortunate.

And some play to do both.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I'm more amused by the "You can't be a proper tank if you don't have TAUNT!!!!!"

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.