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Originally Posted by New Dawn
The opposite of what you innaccurately said can also be true.
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Except Not. Good players dont get better when the tanker is spamming Taunt. Good Players get better when you replace the Tanker with a Rad Controller.
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Good players are good players. If you think having an Earth/Rad or something in a team makes better players out of good players then I fail to see your logic. Rads provide mitigation. Tankers provide mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Jeminiks
Except Not. Good players dont get better when the tanker is spamming Taunt. Good Players get better when you replace the Tanker with a Rad Controller.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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That, exactly. Also, again, there is no argument in Auras vs Taunt power. Really there has never been a great case to say the Aura is a replacement. What can be argued is that those auras help manage aggro. Taunt, the power, is very specific. A blaster will not steal aggro from critters I am taunting. We can prove it anytime. Test server or freedom, you decide.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Good players are good players. If you think having an Earth/Rad or something in a team makes better players out of good players then I fail to see your logic. Rads provide mitigation. Tankers provide mitigation.
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Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
Some people get off on things like an Illusion Rad who has perma PA keeping LR happy or the fact that they can do -Regen etc. I say "things like.." because there are many things. Sometimes though there is some over rating going on due to what they've seen, from also what they haven't seen and never would guess. Each AT with different powersets has different flexibilities and limitations. The Tanker might get knocked out of the ball park at certain aspects of the game but that can be said for anyother. Going back to that perma PA and -regen. I don't see a need for tankers, controllers or defenders anywhere, just good players would do. Good players shouldn't happen at the power selection screen they should start off as in some peoples eyes, as bad ones. Often the difference between good and bad is experience. Bad ones know little of the game and we have all been there. Some players are simply better off from other peoples flexibilities than some peoples limitations and thats as far as it goes. I'd sooner trust one tank or one brute to tank upto 5 AVs at a time than a Ill/Rad.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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No. Rads Provide Mitigation and Increased Killing Speed. They are Force Multipliers. They provide better mitigation than a Tanker ever will.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Good players are good players. If you think having an Earth/Rad or something in a team makes better players out of good players then I fail to see your logic. Rads provide mitigation. Tankers provide mitigation.
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Most edge of the spectrum players understand that tanks are not necessary which is what I was referring to.
Good players dont need someone spamming taunt to keep them safe, good players manage their own agro without needing a tank to baby sit them with Taunt.
All good players need is someone dumb enough to run in first, whether they survive or not depends on if you need to pop veng
Most edge of the spectrum players understand that NO AT or powerset is needed.
Jjust because something is not strictly necessary, does not mean it is not helpful.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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I disagree with almost everything. Rads may be force multipliers, but Colds do it way better.|
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
No. Rads Provide Mitigation and Increased Killing Speed. They are Force Multipliers. They provide better mitigation than a Tanker ever will.
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| Good players dont need someone spamming taunt to keep them safe, good players manage their own agro without needing a tank to baby sit them with Taunt. |
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How's that disagreeing with...|
Originally Posted by Atheism
I disagree with almost everything. Rads may be force multipliers, but Colds do it way better.
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| No. Rads Provide Mitigation and Increased Killing Speed. They are Force Multipliers. They provide better mitigation than a Tanker ever will. |
Def/Controller boards have argued the Rad vs Cold debate (I like them both, and it depends a lot on how fast you can recharge Benumb), but that's sorta besides the point. He just said Rads are force multipliers, not that they're the best (merely better than tanks).
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| Good players don't need someone spamming debuffs to keep them safe; good players manage their aggro without needing a Rad to babysit them with debuffs. |
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
My willpower/str tank is at the opposite end of the spectrum.
(you do not have to build/play like me.) He runs all will toggles, the 2 fighting toggles,combat jumping, and (drum roll), all 3 leadership toggles. yep, he taunts a lot, and spams low damage (and low end cost) attacks. I play him as a mastermind whose pets (fellow teammates) do 95% of the damage while he sits in the hot seat controlling the flow.
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And you are a drain on your team. Good job building a brick wall that doesnt bring anything to a group
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
My willpower/str tank is at the opposite end of the spectrum.
(you do not have to build/play like me.) He runs all will toggles, the 2 fighting toggles,combat jumping, and (drum roll), all 3 leadership toggles. yep, he taunts a lot, and spams low damage (and low end cost) attacks. I play him as a mastermind whose pets (fellow teammates) do 95% of the damage while he sits in the hot seat controlling the flow. |
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The Damage per End of most attacks are relatively the same. So imagine you might have to use one attack five times instead of a heavy attack once. Those heavier attacks tend to do a better AoE gauntlet as well making taunt rather unnecessary on any near you. The Aura tends to remove the need to taunt in melee but, slightly further than that the heavier attacks do gain aggro. The tier one attacks are the lightest and tend to be of slightly better recharge which means that they have slightly better DPS and by the same token slightly higher EPS (end per sec) making them not so end friendly after all. Atleast I think that's it. I haven't needed to look at numbers since 2007 and it puts me to sleep thinking about them. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
My willpower/str tank is at the opposite end of the spectrum.
(you do not have to build/play like me.) He runs all will toggles, the 2 fighting toggles,combat jumping, and (drum roll), all 3 leadership toggles. yep, he taunts a lot, and spams low damage (and low end cost) attacks. I play him as a mastermind whose pets (fellow teammates) do 95% of the damage while he sits in the hot seat controlling the flow. |
Anyway as I see it, you are probably capable of doing your job, its your character that works well with your friends and for you...most pugs probably wouldn't even care or have a clue what your build is so as long as you enjoy it thats all that matters. I just hope you havent got macros commanding your pets about.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Jeminiks, wow, a drain on my team? lol Uh, my will/str tank does spam the PbAoE footstomp, I meant he avoids KO blow and Haymaker, preferring to taunt with taunt and small attacks. As far as being a drain on the team, I am just gonna roflmao. I understand that some tanks want to run tappers, or scrankers or whatever. As long as they are upfront that is what they are doing I am cool with it. I no longer assume a Tanker means a Tanker. I also understand that serious tankers, those stoners and Invul monsters that can tank just about anything non-psi, that use taunt, use taunt aura, and taunt some more are what most people think of when they think traditional tank. However, just because I take a lighter armor tank, and use a ton of end juice to run all 3 leadership toggles for the team's benefit, you think you can call me a drain on the team? wow. I know the way I tank with this guy is a bit non-traditional, but seriously? Drain on the team? Is it that you are a tanker purist? (Meaning explicity Stoner, sometimes Invul.) Or, perhaps, as I have learned from going through this post sometimes happens, do you believe that in fact a tanker who is not trying so very hard trying to max that medium damage is just not trying hard enough? lol. ROFLMAO To anyone who thinks that way, I will say this: I believe (my belief, me, based on my experiences) that my guy running those three leadership toggles does a ton more for the teams damage than if I took Haymaker and KO Blow and spammed those whenever I could. By buffing my teams Defense, +Acc, and +Dam, specifically. Then taunting the major damage dealers onto myself so my team can use those advantages to their fullest. And instead of spending all my time trying to find where I can land my only serious attack (which is still only so-so), I scroll the view way back and keep a hawk's eye on what is trying to ambush my team. My opinion. You play your way, and I'll play mine. But seriously, drain on the team. Your hubris is really impressive Jeminiks. Rock on brother.
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Tell that to every stone tank running Granite.|
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
And you are a drain on your team. Good job building a brick wall that doesnt bring anything to a group
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Being practically indestructible can have value.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Since when is being a tanker limited to the meatshield role?
Mine run the whole range from holding the aggro of multiple +4 AVs without support, to nuking entire spawns before the team can catch up.
Last time I checked they all retained their AT icon.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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While I appreciate your sentiment, are you "nuking" whole spawns w/o either SC or LR? Hell, even double-stacked Rage and FS takes a while to clear a spawn, esp if they're resistant to smashing.|
Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
Since when is being a tanker limited to the meatshield role?
Mine run the whole range from holding the aggro of multiple +4 AVs without support, to nuking entire spawns before the team can catch up. Last time I checked they all retained their AT icon. |
(Note, I'm just bitter from having to clear a mish of Malta w/my WP/SS tank that I was soloing last night on +1/x8, and it took forever.)
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
The nuker is a shield/elec who can self dmg cap when BU is active and has both nukes on a 30 second timer. AAO saturation, BU, double nuke, Thunderstrike the remaining bosses if any and dash off to the next spawn to do it again.
And before anyone gripes that he is not a real "tanker" he also has softcap and *gasp* taunt.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Heh I love that this still pops up every day or two.
I figure if you want to take it, that's a good enough reason to take it. If you don't, that's a perfect reason not to.
Taunt for a tank is very important.
If someone really wants to make (for whatver personal reasons) a tank that does not taunt, that is also very important.
Since taunt partly defines this AT, I think this is a very important conversation for this board.
Oh I'm only partly mocking the discussion, and only for its frequency.
I guess personally I could fit taunt into anything, but I don't think I've ever had a build where at least ONE power wasn't optional. I guess it would be hard on a fire/fire/fire, but mine is a scrapper 
OK there is to many things to read it all but for the ones I saw I am surprised at some thinking a Tank do not need Taunt. First off you need taunt if you want to do Hami, second I have soloed and still used taunt, mainly on the runners to get them back. Third if you think attacking, or taunt aura will always keep aggro what if you have to get a enemy away from a squishy and you can not get to it? I was on a mish where i got stuck in a room behind some baddies and someone needed help so i targeted the baddie and taunted it away from them. Who said you can not have fun taunting and attacking? I do it all the time. I also saw some one said " Because some Tankers don't want to be Tanks, but are limited in their powerset selection" if they don't want to be a tank they should of picked some other archetype. Also taunt is a good way to pull some times if the groups are to close to each other.
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A scrapper can be built to be so, so survivable. I have a beautifully min/maxxed Claws/SR and she treads where I wouldn't recommend some peoples tankers going and the AVs she tanks with confront with minimal assistance can be done so much better for teams than some peoples tauntless tanks.|
Originally Posted by LSK
If they don't want to be a tank they should of picked some other archetype. Also taunt is a good way to pull some times if the groups are to close to each other.
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In looking for a Brick type character that does a hell of a lot of damage I would create it out of some other AT. You can with other ATs acquire the overall survivability needed for the game and Tankers aren't going to be as damaging as some other ATs.
Tankers help with team dynamics. Keeping mobs in tight areas for such things as AoE debuffs, controls and splash damage or redirecting those things away from those more vulnerable to them is mostly what a Tanker is about.
Having taunt is not enough. I was on my blaster lending fire support to a tanker who got in over his head by splitting from the team to early. Despite him being amongst what was so much lower than aggro cap I had spent 10 seconds just a few feet away from his character taking hits before planting. I decided that whatever he is, good isn't the right description. I am not the best tanker in the world but I would of taunted even if it was straight after using an awaken and popping a BF.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I guess some people think it because it's true.|
Originally Posted by LSK
OK there is to many things to read it all but for the ones I saw I am surprised at some thinking a Tank do not need Taunt.
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Not every single tank needs Taunt.
Do MOST of my tanks have Taunt? Yes. Do they ALL have it? No.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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If they wanted us not to make ice melee scrankers, they would have given ice melee to one of the 3 other melee ATs that do reasonnable damage. =) And until GR, given EM and SM to a blueside damage dealer. (aka scrapper)|
Originally Posted by LSK
OK there is to many things to read it all but for the ones I saw I am surprised at some thinking a Tank do not need Taunt. First off you need taunt if you want to do Hami, second I have soloed and still used taunt, mainly on the runners to get them back. Third if you think attacking, or taunt aura will always keep aggro what if you have to get a enemy away from a squishy and you can not get to it? I was on a mish where i got stuck in a room behind some baddies and someone needed help so i targeted the baddie and taunted it away from them. Who said you can not have fun taunting and attacking? I do it all the time. I also saw some one said " Because some Tankers don't want to be Tanks, but are limited in their powerset selection" if they don't want to be a tank they should of picked some other archetype. Also taunt is a good way to pull some times if the groups are to close to each other.
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Also, unless you can prove that in 100% of the time, in every single case possible, your playstyle is the best(most effective, most safe, most quick AND most entertainning wich is highly subjective), that just stay your opinion that taunt is needed. Just because you say it's needed doesn't make it needed.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
My experience is very limited with tanks, even though my main is one, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm a recent returnee who's just getting back up to speed.
I've done what others have already suggested and developed two builds. One is for teams where simply taunting and being a damage sponge is essential. One, which I call the fun one, is for soloing or small group tanking and trades in taunt, and reshuffles other powers, to focus on DPS and flexibility.
Why a tank? Concept. I wanted to create a mystic's bodyguard. Gauntlet and the generally improved survivability of a Tank fit the bill. How is it that I don't just have one build if Taunt can easily be fit into any build? Why two? Well, my Tank is Dark Armor/Dual Blade. Between the DB's combos, not all of which are essentially but I count on three as bread and butter, DA's essential auras/heal and then necessary pool and patron (Energy Mastery) powers...that's a very, very, tight build.
On a team I usually have support so endurance consumption isn't an issue. I don't need some of my endurance building abilities and can trade them for more team-friendly powers like Taunt and staples like the Tough and Weave. When soloing I need all the tools I can muster to compensate for the build's inherent weaknesses (endurance hog and accuracy issues). It pays off but it comes at a price.
I won't pretend the build is uber but it is fun and that's why I'm here. I can tank fairly respectably on my team build when I have to or off-tank and AoE DPS like a (stylish) madman on the fun build when I can.
It comes down to concept.
Attacking first just means you have the threat first, it isn't relevant once other players are "noticed." Plus, Taunt is by far the biggest modifier (presumably, we don't technically know what debuff offers). If a Tanker is being out aggroed by a Blaster, his taunt probably just didn't hit the Blaster's targets. It's more a statement about Taunt's 5 target max than anything else.
As for attacking first, it seems that you need to be relatively higher then the person wqho aggroed first. At least, that's what i've noticed. Two "equal" brute fighting the same AV, the one who attacked first will likely keep the aggro on him.
For the rest of the post. Why did you only answer to my very exagerated exemples instead of refering to my actual arguments? I used those exemples because for me, they are as silly as asking every tanker to have taunt. Not because i believe them.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX