soft cap obsession
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-02 15:58 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Missing the point.|
Originally Posted by Kahlan_
Technically not true, as resistance debuffs do exist (but are rare, and resisted by resistance)
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With resistance, damage reduction is dependable. It can be REDUCED through debuffs, but it's still functioning.
With defense, you're at the mercy of a random roll. Granted, you can heavily weight that random roll in your favor, but you still have exactly zero control beyond that.
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The problem is, you seem to be considering this completely independently of the difficulty settings.| However, this still leaves us with the problem that the game's content can be completely trivialized by all ATs. |
For the most part, the game IS trivial at +0/x0/NoBoss. SO/IO/whatever.
However, +4/x8/Bosses/AV is trivial for NOBODY. Even the super-tricked scrappers/tanks/etc will admit that running at these settings isn't "easy".
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| The fix to that is to build content to the power level, which leaves SO characters in the dust. Or you can nerf, which would cause an ED sized uproar. Or you can accept that IO using characters can never be challenged by the content. |
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I understand what you're saying. It's all about perspective. |
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Yeah, see, 30 million is along the lines of "mostly clean out one of my higher-level characters' inf to fund this character". Now, granted, it's not like it's a terrible deal for a softcap build's benefits, but what calling it cheap communicates to me is "this guy is speaking a different language than I am". It's probable that people who are more steeped in IOs than I am could make builds for my characters that I could afford, but it seems that they rarely bother, because "cheap" to them is "more than I can afford" to me.
(It also doesn't help that there is no Mac version of Mids and the online character builders I've seen are several issues out of date. Softcapping my ice tanker was an exercise in pencil, paper, and crosschecking the wiki's "IO sets" page. What fun.) |
I don't look at 30 Million as a lot, and I'm sure there are other people who don't look at 300 Million as a lot.
But that's coming from someone who's had 2 purples drop in less than a week and sold them both for almost 700 million.
My only answer is dedication. Focus on one character. Get them capped so they can start making money for you, then worry about the fine tuning.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Yeah, see, 30 million is along the lines of "mostly clean out one of my higher-level characters' inf to fund this character". Now, granted, it's not like it's a terrible deal for a softcap build's benefits, but what calling it cheap communicates to me is "this guy is speaking a different language than I am". It's probable that people who are more steeped in IOs than I am could make builds for my characters that I could afford, but it seems that they rarely bother, because "cheap" to them is "more than I can afford" to me.
(It also doesn't help that there is no Mac version of Mids and the online character builders I've seen are several issues out of date. Softcapping my ice tanker was an exercise in pencil, paper, and crosschecking the wiki's "IO sets" page. What fun.) |
Sorry for the off topic post, but I kind of wanted to give you a hand.
I invted a friend to play CoH, he started the game in November.
He doesn't have much time to play, maybe 2 or 3 hours a week - 2 to 3 nights a week.
With just a few market tricks I shared with him, he amassed over 50 million by the time his character was L25.
Head over to the market forums and take a browse at some of the strategies available, some very smart people there are very generous with their ideas and are willing to help (you can also send me a PM).
You don't need to spend very much of your time in game on the market acting like you're playing "City of Stock Market" to make some decent inf.
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It's "cheap" (and in some cases, more effective) in comparison to someone with an extreme recharge build and 5 sets of purples loaded on.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Now, granted, it's not like it's a terrible deal for a softcap build's benefits, but what calling it cheap communicates to me is "this guy is speaking a different language than I am"
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But hey, everyone has 3-50 (yes, fifty) billion inf to blow on every character, right? Right?
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That is one of the very few defensive bonuses I'd ever build toward on a squishy other than Defense. A lot of my squishies are generally very good at keeping themselves alive... until they get mezzed and die faster than Rick Moranis fighting a T-Rex.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
This does make me incidentally wonder how popular (if at all) sets with mag 1 protection to specific mezzes as a set bonus would be. Obviously having the bonus once isn't terribly useful, but I could see players of squishy classes being willing to spend a couple of their set bonuses building up hold or stun protection.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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There is another possible solution which is to make very hard content designed for teams. IOs have a much lower impact on teams since you have teammates shoring up your weaknesses. For example it doesn't matter how much defense my Blaster has is there's a FF defender giving everyone 45%. Obviously a team of well IO'd characters is better than an SO'd team, but the difference is significantly smaller than between soloing characters. And of course multi-team content blows this even further away, Hamidon Raids are a good example of that.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't know if the devs have a choice really. There simply is no comparison between characters with SOs and those slotted out with well-planned IO sets. If the end game content is possible with SOs, then it will be trivial for IO set using characters.
However, this still leaves us with the problem that the game's content can be completely trivialized by all ATs. The fix to that is to build content to the power level, which leaves SO characters in the dust. Or you can nerf, which would cause an ED sized uproar. Or you can accept that IO using characters can never be challenged by the content. |
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Very but IMO the bonus should be .34 or .5 to require a bit more stacking to get there.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
This does make me incidentally wonder how popular (if at all) sets with mag 1 protection to specific mezzes as a set bonus would be. Obviously having the bonus once isn't terribly useful, but I could see players of squishy classes being willing to spend a couple of their set bonuses building up hold or stun protection.
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Agreed. But, and I am assuming here, that Positron isn't just building standard mission content for his "endgame." Further, I'm assuming that this endgame content isn't necessarily for soloists. To be perfectly honest, I'm expecting scripted raid encounters. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The problem is, you seem to be considering this completely independently of the difficulty settings.
For the most part, the game IS trivial at +0/x0/NoBoss. SO/IO/whatever. However, +4/x8/Bosses/AV is trivial for NOBODY. Even the super-tricked scrappers/tanks/etc will admit that running at these settings isn't "easy". |
But even if that's not what they're doing, it seems pretty weak for the devs to suggest that this content will challenge our tricked out level 50s, but only if we up the difficulty setting. I'll admit that much of my argument depends on speculation.
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| Or you let all the weak sisters run at -1/x1 and all the people who have a desire to be challenged will run at higher settings. |
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.5 makes sense to me, but to tell the truth I'm not sure what magnitude values most enemies use. If they're mostly throwing out mag 1 on the assumption that player protection will be all-or-nothing than .34 is reasonable, but if mag 1 protection only saves you from the low-end business then .5 is fine by me, bearing in mind that I'm suggesting each one is specific to a particular mez type (hold, stun, sleep, etc.). It would also make sense to have different sets give different amounts of mag; it might make the lower-mag sets less popular, but could also make it less excessive to give antimez bonuses on a set with other good bonuses if their bonus needs to be stacked farther to work.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus Tex
Very but IMO the bonus should be .34 or .5 to require a bit more stacking to get there.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Sorry for the off topic post, but I kind of wanted to give you a hand.
I invted a friend to play CoH, he started the game in November. He doesn't have much time to play, maybe 2 or 3 hours a week - 2 to 3 nights a week. With just a few market tricks I shared with him, he amassed over 50 million by the time his character was L25. Head over to the market forums and take a browse at some of the strategies available, some very smart people there are very generous with their ideas and are willing to help (you can also send me a PM). You don't need to spend very much of your time in game on the market acting like you're playing "City of Stock Market" to make some decent inf. |
This doesn't mean I'm terrified of stepping into WW's, but it's mostly to sell off whatever's dropped from the guys I'm fighting. Every so often I'll get the urge and start bidding on sets relevant to one of my characters, but "serious marketeering" is not for me. I appreciate that you mean well.
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What's endgame content then?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
To my mind, this isn't "endgame" content. It's just content, if this is the case. |
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That already happened.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
And hopefully one day Castle will wake up and realize how completely and patently broken this is.
(And this is coming from someone who has an SR Blaster. And yes, I've already donned my fireproof gear.) |
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Something besides going into and instance and mowing down mobs.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
What's endgame content then?
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At best, without a major overhaul of the game's design (and hey, it's possible, they've basically created a dedicated dev team for it), I forsee this as mowing down mobs more slowly.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Something besides going into and instance and mowing down mobs.
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I mean, think about it. All they can really do here without revamping mob AI in a really huge way is do something like throw a bunch of debuffs at us and buff the mobs. This might make us more careful or cautious, which means we won't fight as fast or as many foes, and/or we might die more often.
Is that "content" either? I'm not so sure. It might make us think a little harder in combat, but again, unless they're really reworking some very fundamental things, it's not going to be that complex. My bar might be set too low, but I'm expecting buffed mobs, possibly more varied mobs, and stuff that tries to debuff the tar out of us.
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Actually, with respect to mitigating the value of IO-ed softcap builds, it's a very reasonable suggestion. Most defense-oriented powersets get a considerable amount of defense resistance, but +def set bonuses give none. An SR Scrapper or Brute could shrug off most of the added debuffs, but a softcapped Blaster wouldn't be particularly survivable in the face of cascading defense failure.
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Originally Posted by NeverDark
That is, without question, the worst suggestion in the history of mankind.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I'm hoping for more, because this is just normal content buffed. What I'm expecting is real raid encounters and a real raid system. Where multiple groups can band together to take on significant challenges. Challenges that have been hand-crafted.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
At best, without a major overhaul of the game's design (and hey, it's possible, they've basically created a dedicated dev team for it), I forsee this as mowing down mobs more slowly.
I mean, think about it. All they can really do here without revamping mob AI in a really huge way is do something like throw a bunch of debuffs at us and buff the mobs. This might make us more careful or cautious, which means we won't fight as fast or as many foes, and/or we might die more often. Is that "content" either? I'm not so sure. It might make us think a little harder in combat, but again, unless they're really reworking some very fundamental things, it's not going to be that complex. My bar might be set too low, but I'm expecting buffed mobs, possibly more varied mobs, and stuff that tries to debuff the tar out of us. |
Like multiple raids on the Hamidon level with the infrastructure to support raiding at that level.
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I had this same thought on the way to work today. Mez protection would be a highly desirable goal for many. I find the prevalence of sleeps particularly annoying though not as dangerous as other mezzes.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
This does make me incidentally wonder how popular (if at all) sets with mag 1 protection to specific mezzes as a set bonus would be. Obviously having the bonus once isn't terribly useful, but I could see players of squishy classes being willing to spend a couple of their set bonuses building up hold or stun protection.
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I find that being held, stunned, or slept leads to defeat much more often than being debuffed.
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The main benefit of high defense on most characters who do not natively get defense (esp. most squishies, softcapped Blasters/Controllers etc) is not to let you stand there and take hits like a tanker, but to absorb the alpha strike that normally faceplants you, after which everything is dead, mezzed or debuffed into the floor. Increasing defense debuffs will impact such characters, but not likely to the extent you think. Furthermore, given the way that cascading defense failure gets less likely the more defense you have, softcapped defense builds ironically have better ability to cope with such a change than builds with moderate but non-softcapped defense in situations where they do have to face defense debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Actually, with respect to mitigating the value of IO-ed softcap builds, it's a very reasonable suggestion. Most defense-oriented powersets get a considerable amount of defense resistance, but +def set bonuses give none. An SR Scrapper or Brute could shrug off most of the added debuffs, but a softcapped Blaster wouldn't be particularly survivable in the face of cascading defense failure.
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SR is unique for getting 95% defdebuff resistance; most sets get much lower. Shield gets around 60% except for certain extreme recharge builds using HOs in what could arguably be called an unintended manner. Ice gets 50%. Invuln has 50%. I think that the ones who will be hurt most by such changes will be SO-only melee defense-based characters, who have to absorb more firepower, and with fewer options for disabling large numbers of debuffers (including every machinegun and bladed weapon in sight). Even SR gets killed dead, if it hasn't reached a level where it can take and slot all its defense powers. No, this isn't a reasonable suggestion at all, even if you accept the assumption that softcapped defense somehow needs to be nerfed.
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Something to also point out is this, combined with being able to manipulate what you're being attacked by, is what makes a defense-built squishy so potent. Don't have any melee defense? Just never get into melee range. Problem solved.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
The main benefit of high defense on most characters who do not natively get defense (esp. most squishies, softcapped Blasters/Controllers etc) is not to let you stand there and take hits like a tanker, but to absorb the alpha strike that normally faceplants you, after which everything is dead, mezzed or debuffed into the floor.
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I have to wonder if simply flipping the split set bonuses for Positional and Typed Defense would help fix things...
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It wouldn't make a huge difference. |
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I have to wonder if simply flipping the split set bonuses for Positional and Typed Defense would help fix things...
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Blessing of the Zephyr would be a bit less popular.
Thunderstrike 6 sets would be unaffected.
If anything, it would make it easier, as 3 pieces of Thunderstrike would give a better ranged Def bonus for those powers you couldn't afford to six slot.
3 pieces of Eradication would give out 3.125% Ranged Def.
2 pieces of Basilisk's Gaze: 2.5% Ranged Def? Very nice!
In general, the positional bonuses are harder by being the six-piece bonuses, typed ones are typically the 3rd or 4th.
Rather than hitting ranged hover-squishies, this would impact the melee-ers with typed Defence by making Kinetic Combat, Eradictaion and other goodies less useful to them.
In response to the claims about defense being overpowered.
The dev's recently buffed typed defense. They also gave us another +3% defense to all IO. Showing that maybe they don't see it that way.
I would wait until we see the new end game content before we call any amount of defense overpowered.
I am typically buffed way past the soft-cap on teams even without any set bonuses or defense, it may not be set bonuses as much as how defense works in this game.
It typically takes a lot of time and infamy/influence to soft-cap a squishy or non-defense based character, which is something I spent and spend a lot of time trying to achieve on multiple characters.
Anyone that has played a toon softcapped with low or without DDR knows that with as many defense debuffing powers in the game that 45% disappears fast.
I think this view stems from people seeing toons that can run farms maps that don't debuff DDR. Also watching people solo one to a few very hard targets (AVs or GMs) that will not be able drop unprotected defense.
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I don't think we need any nerfs. If anything, just make tougher baddies. For example, I can stand in the middle of 2 mobs x8 of melee based baddies and not get hit at all. But yesterday, i ran a mish is PI that had all PP (paragon protectors). Man, that was tough. Just create or add more stuff like that to the game.
If we're able to build super toons with IO's (which had to be the plan or why else even give us IO's to begin with), then we need to be fighting far tougher bad guys, imo. I can easily take myself and a wifes 50 and tear through +4x8's of anything i've seen yet other than an AV.
This discussion is interesting in a theoretical way, but the 90% mitigation isn't as optimal as this thread letss on, due to the lack of DefDebuffResists through IO's, and the simple fact that a blaster with 45% defense getting hit once by any lethal damage boss, will be very low on health, no longer soft capped and alot easier to hit.
So yeah, defense is broken against the right type of mobs, but so are other things (I'm not naming fire/kins or arch/mm blasters here, no way, not gonna happen). Take your softcapped toon to the shard, or fight Neuron's robot, or perhaps just go up against Earth Thorn Casters, Devouring Earth, Tuatha De Bannon, Madness mage's, Master illusionists, Nemesis (I just love being on the recieving end of vengeance, don't you?) or Knives of Artemis... When you're done, let's talk this through again.
So yeah, softcap is awesome for the perfect farm, but then again you could just do it like we did before IO's, and eat 4 purples when things are starting to look grim.
Any and all spelling, grammar and logic errors are intentional so this post will blend seamlessly into the Internet
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Unbelievable. You, [subject name here], must be the pride of [subject hometown here]!
IOs are a MASSIVE timesink. Nerf them and you might as well nerf your subscriptions too.
A very small part of the game's population are able to use IOs & become godlike. Give the regular players something to aspire to. Aspiration keeps them subscribed.
MMORPG marketing 101.
This does make me incidentally wonder how popular (if at all) sets with mag 1 protection to specific mezzes as a set bonus would be. Obviously having the bonus once isn't terribly useful, but I could see players of squishy classes being willing to spend a couple of their set bonuses building up hold or stun protection.