soft cap obsession
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-02 15:58 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Um. So what's the plan for those of us who play a defense set and can't afford to softcap it with IO sets? Do we get to just die over and over?
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Originally Posted by ketch
Anyway, the cat is out of the bag already and I don't think they can put it back in without causing a lot of trouble. Rather than nerf what already exists, I'd second Adeon's response of adding more defense debuffs.
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To elaborate on my position without having to multi-quote, and instead simply write one big counter argument:
I'm not blindly opposed to defensive set bonuses and their uses. Allowing a Super Reflexes Scrapper to increase their defense is somewhat reasonable, if perhaps going back on the Global Defense Nerf. (Also lol @ SR Brutes being worthless without softcapping.)
However, and this is a mighty big however, Blasters were very definitely 100% clearly NOT meant to have SR-level defenses. Speaking from experience, I did not have to make any sacrifices in my build to reach the level of defense I have on my Blaster. There are no half-slotted powers or under-slotted damage values. And most of the sets I used were dirt cheap, at that.
Is my build as efficient as it could be? Am I even soft-capped? Hardly. But I'm still pushing approximately 20% (lowest, melee) to 30% (highest, ranged) defense to all three attributes on a class that has no good right to have much more than 10% while solo. And this is on top of my 30% S/L Resistance from Temp Invuln. And Smoke Grenade.
The solution is definitely not to add more defense debuffs, and that is quite possibly one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Not only are you making the game harder for everyone (not just defense-based characters) to accommodate the outliers, but you'd have to find a way to A) land the debuff reliably (going to make it auto-hit too?) and B) make them prevalent enough that such characters can't possibly avoid them by simply not fighting those enemies. Cutting the set bonuses in half would be easier.
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Or you can continue reading...|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Um. So what's the plan for those of us who play a defense set and can't afford to softcap it with IO sets? Do we get to just die over and over?
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See the rest of the post where it recommends creating other attractive sets bonuses. Maybe if people have something else to chase fewer will chase after this particular goal.
You'll also have to forgive me this since I don't play the melee AT's, what defense set does not have defense debuff resistance? I see it in Super Reflexes, Invulnerability, Ice Armor, Shield Defense, and Stone Armor.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
The solution is definitely not to add more defense debuffs, and that is quite possibly one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Not only are you making the game harder to accommodate the outliers, but you'd have to find a way to A) land the debuff reliably (going to make it auto-hit too?) and B) make them prevalent enough that such characters can't possibly avoid them by simply not fighting those enemies. Cutting the set bonuses in half would be easier.
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Many times you don't have to use IO sets to softcap defense if you're a defense set. Also, most defense sets also get resistance to defense debuffs. Something which can't be achieved through IO slotting.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Um. So what's the plan for those of us who play a defense set and can't afford to softcap it with IO sets? Do we get to just die over and over?
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Without resistance to defense debuffs a softcapped build can easily experience cascade failure once a defense debuff attack hits them. A number of which are autohit. My Crab, who is a Hover user with nearly softcapped ranged defense and no debuff resistance, experienced this earlier today against Longbow. And Crabs have moderate resistances as well, but once the debuffs hit and kept piling on with the damage there wasn't time to get away.
Softcapping can be done by the 30's using no IO's for defense sets. Others require far more effort and few achieve softcap before the late game. Also, defense set users don't need to worry as much about defense bonuses and can focus on improving other aspects.
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Defense debuff resistance only cuts down on the potency of defense debuffs. By making them more common, you're basically working to negate the advantage DDR brings to those sets, and making things even worse for characters with no defense at all. Plus, the game already has way too many defense debuffs, and in all the wrong places at that.
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Originally Posted by ketch
Or you can continue reading...
See the rest of the post where it recommends creating other attractive sets bonuses. Maybe if people have something else to chase fewer will chase after this particular goal. You'll also have to forgive me this since I don't play the melee AT's, what defense set does not have defense debuff resistance? I see it in Super Reflexes, Invulnerability, Ice Armor, Shield Defense, and Stone Armor. |
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What defense set are you playing? It's pretty easy and cheap to softcap /sr, for example.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Um. So what's the plan for those of us who play a defense set and can't afford to softcap it with IO sets? Do we get to just die over and over?
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While defense-based sets generally have DDR, how much they have varies by set (SR can get nearly 90%, while Ice and Energy only get about 50%), and the big problem is that it scales by level. That 50% resistance only happens at level 50. The entire way up they have a good deal less, and even then 50% isn't really all that much.|
Originally Posted by ketch
You'll also have to forgive me this since I don't play the melee AT's, what defense set does not have defense debuff resistance? I see it in Super Reflexes, Invulnerability, Ice Armor, Shield Defense, and Stone Armor.
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That doesn't touch at all on the fact that the proposition completely breaks the game for anyone who isn't trying to softcap. You're a blaster who uses SOs? Might as well delete your character right now. In order to strip away enough defense from those using IOs to softcap, you have to introduce enough debuffs to cripple anyone below that level.
Not only would that not work, it would fail to work in an absolutely spectacular fashion.
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Ive never done it before until i made my elec/sd scrapper. Now, every melee toon will be melee def capped.
I can run my BM farm at 0x8 and stand in the middle of 2 mobs and not go under 3/4 health. UNLESS, the %'s hit me all at once and i face plant. Otherwise, i just stand in the middle of 20 baddies and laff before i charge them to death.
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So what you are saying is your blaster is so incredible you need to be nerfed? an not just you every toon like yours?
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
And hopefully one day Castle will wake up and realize how completely and patently broken this is.
(And this is coming from someone who has an SR Blaster. And yes, I've already donned my fireproof gear.) |
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I think what he's saying is that if a squishy character can get 90% damage mitigation, something is out of whack. I recently respecced my Rad/Kin corr to have softcap S/L defense and I've got my Son/Rad corr softcapped to ranged. |
Originally Posted by Redd Rumm
So what you are saying is your blaster is so incredible you need to be nerfed? an not just you every toon like yours?
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I won't be surprised if defense bonuses get looked at.
Edit: it also speaks to the nature and prevalence of defense bonuses when the best way to shore up a resistance-based character (like Fire Armour) is to get defense.
Now, I realise if resistance bonuses were about equal in power/prevalence as defense ones it would be laughably easy to make stupidly overpowered characters...but a semblance of balance would be nice.
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The thing is though, either a soft capped s/l build or a soft capped ranged build, only has 90% mitigation to 1 type of attack/ position. Completely soft capped to all postitions and/or damage types would be 90% mitigation, but you are leaving all sorts of room to either melee and AoE attacks with a ranged build, or any non-S/L typed attack with a s/l build. There are a plethora of things that can take down a single type of capped build, soft capping to a single position or type, is not as great as a /SR or /SD character. A blaster cannot have "/SR levels of protection" because they're DDR and hp scaling damage resistence don't exist for the blaster.
| I think what he's saying is that if a squishy character can get 90% damage mitigation, something is out of whack. I recently respecced my Rad/Kin corr to have softcap S/L defense and I've got my Son/Rad corr softcapped to ranged |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
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Not only that, but even a ranged softcap blaster can get hit by a single melee attack that does -def and the whole thing comes crashing down.|
Originally Posted by MutantX_7
The thing is though, either a soft capped s/l build or a soft capped ranged build, only has 90% mitigation to 1 type of attack/ position. Completely soft capped to all postitions and/or damage types would be 90% mitigation, but you are leaving all sorts of room to either melee and AoE attacks with a ranged build, or any non-S/L typed attack with a s/l build. There are a plethora of things that can take down a single type of capped build, soft capping to a single position or type, is not as great as a /SR or /SD character. A blaster cannot have "/SR levels of protection" because they're DDR and hp scaling damage resistence don't exist for the blaster.
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EDIT TO ADD:
My take on the whole thing: Defense is easy to obtain because of its fickle nature. If you had 90% resistance, that resistance is always there. Every single hit will be reduced to almost nothing. With 45% defense, almost nothing will hit you, but the hits that do get through hurt a lot. Beyond that is the chance that two massive hits happen in short succession that kill you.
With resistance, there is a well defined line of what you can handle. With defense, the line is blurry, and the RNG is what kills you.
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I don't buy that. First of all, soft-capping is not the same as "SR-level defense". I know you probably just mean "SR-level defense buff values" but people who don't know better will think you mean "SR-level survivability" and that is far from true. Second, the devs designed the IO system *after* ED and GDN. They designed in the rule-of-five, meaning they were thinking about stacking bonuses. They HAD to be thinking about such questions as "How much defense can someone stack?" "How much recharge can someone get?" and so forth.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
However, and this is a mighty big however, Blasters were very definitely 100% clearly NOT meant to have SR-level defenses.
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I just have a hard time believing that soft-capped Blasters took anyone by surprise.
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Technically not true, as resistance debuffs do exist (but are rare, and resisted by resistance)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
If you had 90% resistance, that resistance is always there. Every single hit will be reduced to almost nothing.
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To support the devil's advocate, I have a bit of a different reason for feeling that this situation is a bit out of whack.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
To elaborate on my position without having to multi-quote, and instead simply write one big counter argument:
I'm not blindly opposed to defensive set bonuses and their uses. Allowing a Super Reflexes Scrapper to increase their defense is somewhat reasonable, if perhaps going back on the Global Defense Nerf. (Also lol @ SR Brutes being worthless without softcapping.) However, and this is a mighty big however, Blasters were very definitely 100% clearly NOT meant to have SR-level defenses. Speaking from experience, I did not have to make any sacrifices in my build to reach the level of defense I have on my Blaster. There are no half-slotted powers or under-slotted damage values. And most of the sets I used were dirt cheap, at that. Is my build as efficient as it could be? Am I even soft-capped? Hardly. But I'm still pushing approximately 20% (lowest, melee) to 30% (highest, ranged) defense to all three attributes on a class that has no good right to have much more than 10% while solo. And this is on top of my 30% S/L Resistance from Temp Invuln. And Smoke Grenade. The solution is definitely not to add more defense debuffs, and that is quite possibly one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Not only are you making the game harder for everyone (not just defense-based characters) to accommodate the outliers, but you'd have to find a way to A) land the debuff reliably (going to make it auto-hit too?) and B) make them prevalent enough that such characters can't possibly avoid them by simply not fighting those enemies. Cutting the set bonuses in half would be easier. |
Defense IO set bonuses are overpowered right now. Sure characters can play fine with SOs, but using that as a balance point given the prevalence of defense set bonuses and the ease is silly. This isn't a problem now. But it will very much be a problem when Positron finishes his "end-game" content. Because the variability in power is far, far too vast between characters. And this variability depends in large measure on a player having a DEEP understanding of the mechanics.
So this got me wondering. Who the hell is Posi building this end-game content for? Because I can guarantee you that if it's built for us folks on the boards who agonize over builds and have multiple characters at the soft-cap then there's going to be quite the outcry.
I don't know if nerfs are the best way to deal with this problem, but the question of power progression among characters is something that's going to have to be addressed.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
To support the devil's advocate, I have a bit of a different reason for feeling that this situation is a bit out of whack.
Defense IO set bonuses are overpowered right now. Sure characters can play fine with SOs, but using that as a balance point given the prevalence of defense set bonuses and the ease is silly. This isn't a problem now. But it will very much be a problem when Positron finishes his "end-game" content. Because the variability in power is far, far too vast between characters. And this variability depends in large measure on a player having a DEEP understanding of the mechanics. So this got me wondering. Who the hell is Posi building this end-game content for? Because I can guarantee you that if it's built for us folks on the boards who agonize over builds and have multiple characters at the soft-cap then there's going to be quite the outcry. I don't know if nerfs are the best way to deal with this problem, but the question of power progression among characters is something that's going to have to be addressed. |
I see your point, but we have NO idea what to expect and how it will empower our characters. And it's jumping the gun ALOT to start thinking of a solution to a problem that doesn't even exist.
I would be very surprised to find out that SO slotted characters are given a backseat to the new content when the devs have stated many times that IOs are not mandatory to play the game.
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I have two low-mid-level shield scrappers, a low-mid-level SR scrapper who stopped getting played due to out-of-game concerns, and an ice tank in the 40s - not exactly ancient expertise, but at least enough to get a sense of how defense works while leveling up the tank if nothing else. I softcapped the ice tank (one of the cheaper character builds to soft cap) and it still required gathering together influence from across my characters - I'm certain someone's going to say "oh, just play the market and it's trivial to get the inf together" but marketeering is just not at all fun to me. I don't think that people who enjoy playing the market are "playing the game wrong" or anything, but I also don't think that someone who doesn't want to play the market is playing wrong.|
Originally Posted by GibsonMcCoy
What defense set are you playing? It's pretty easy and cheap to softcap /sr, for example.
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Part of the problem, I suspect, is that with everyone hot to softcap their characters, the sets needed to do so have stopped being cheap by the standards of players in my inf bracket.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Many times you don't have to use IO sets to softcap defense if you're a defense set.
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(I do have one other character who's softcapped before IO sets - a bots/traps mastermind, who's softcapped as long as the Protector Bots keep a bubble on me. Of course, technically that character doesn't even have one of the "defensive sets" that scrappers/tankers/brutes use..)
Edit: As I type this long post I remember that Invuln can softcap with sufficient mobs in Invincibility range, so mea culpa on that one. I guess two sets counts as many?
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Originally Posted by Ketch
Or you can continue reading...
See the rest of the post where it recommends creating other attractive sets bonuses. Maybe if people have something else to chase fewer will chase after this particular goal. |
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I was ignoring all debuffs in my added statement there. The point is, the RNG doesn't get around resistance.
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Originally Posted by Kahlan_
Technically not true, as resistance debuffs do exist (but are rare, and resisted by resistance)
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Correct: |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Not only that, but even a ranged softcap blaster can get hit by a single melee attack that does -def and the whole thing comes crashing down.
EDIT TO ADD: My take on the whole thing: Defense is easy to obtain because of its fickle nature. If you had 90% resistance, that resistance is always there. Every single hit will be reduced to almost nothing. With 45% defense, almost nothing will hit you, but the hits that do get through hurt a lot. Beyond that is the chance that two massive hits happen in short succession that kill you. With resistance, there is a well defined line of what you can handle. With defense, the line is blurry, and the RNG is what kills you. |
Resistance = Sure Thing
Defense = Well-Loaded Craps Shoot
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Kitty Katiana, who I work with, is in my SG and my VG. I gave him a build that could softcap his claws/sr for around 30 million. Not quite trivial but doable easily without playing the market.|
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
I have two low-mid-level shield scrappers, a low-mid-level SR scrapper who stopped getting played due to out-of-game concerns, and an ice tank in the 40s - not exactly ancient expertise, but at least enough to get a sense of how defense works while leveling up the tank if nothing else. I softcapped the ice tank (one of the cheaper character builds to soft cap) and it still required gathering together influence from across my characters - I'm certain someone's going to say "oh, just play the market and it's trivial to get the inf together" but marketeering is just not at all fun to me. I don't think that people who enjoy playing the market are "playing the game wrong" or anything, but I also don't think that someone who doesn't want to play the market is playing wrong.
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I'm sure one of us could make a really cheap softcapped shield build without too much problem as well.
I understand where you're coming from on not having fun in playing the market. There's stuff in every mmo I've tried I don't enjoy doing, and therefore I tend to ignore it.
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I don't know if the devs have a choice really. There simply is no comparison between characters with SOs and those slotted out with well-planned IO sets. If the end game content is possible with SOs, then it will be trivial for IO set using characters.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I see your point, but we have NO idea what to expect and how it will empower our characters. And it's jumping the gun ALOT to start thinking of a solution to a problem that doesn't even exist.
I would be very surprised to find out that SO slotted characters are given a backseat to the new content when the devs have stated many times that IOs are not mandatory to play the game. |
And I fully expect that the power gained from this content will probably have to be inherent to the character for this to have even a chance at a solution. But the problem does exist. Because the content is being created now. So the devs need to be considering how you deal with the power disparity now.
ED and the Global Defense changes were the devs first attempt to create a space for further progression of our character's power. We're now at a point where character power has returned to the I3/I4 levels, just that it's much more a function of the work you put into the character. That's good IMO.
However, this still leaves us with the problem that the game's content can be completely trivialized by all ATs. The fix to that is to build content to the power level, which leaves SO characters in the dust. Or you can nerf, which would cause an ED sized uproar. Or you can accept that IO using characters can never be challenged by the content.
We'll see what they do.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yeah, see, 30 million is along the lines of "mostly clean out one of my higher-level characters' inf to fund this character". Now, granted, it's not like it's a terrible deal for a softcap build's benefits, but what calling it cheap communicates to me is "this guy is speaking a different language than I am". It's probable that people who are more steeped in IOs than I am could make builds for my characters that I could afford, but it seems that they rarely bother, because "cheap" to them is "more than I can afford" to me. |
Originally Posted by GibsonMcCoy
Kitty Katiana, who I work with, is in my SG and my VG. I gave him a build that could softcap his claws/sr for around 30 million. Not quite trivial but doable easily without playing the market.
I'm sure one of us could make a really cheap softcapped shield build without too much problem as well. I understand where you're coming from on not having fun in playing the market. There's stuff in every mmo I've tried I don't enjoy doing, and therefore I tend to ignore it. |
(It also doesn't help that there is no Mac version of Mids and the online character builders I've seen are several issues out of date. Softcapping my ice tanker was an exercise in pencil, paper, and crosschecking the wiki's "IO sets" page. What fun.)
my my i started quite the discussion. thanks for the info. i understand now.
Defense Soft Capping is obsessive because:
1. Defense is also limited mez protection
2. More available in pool powers than resistance, mez protection, or heals (ie, you can get Defense from Combat Jumping, Weave, Stealth, Manuevers, Hover, etc)
3. More availabe in IO's than resistance, mez protection, or heals
4. Each additional % closer to 45% defense makes you exponentially more survivable thus the obsessive seeming all or nothing softcap mentality.
Game Design has pushed the obsession. Its often the only defense that many toons can put together because of IO's and Pool Powers. Its not like there is a Negative Energy flack jacket power available in the Pool Powers to raise your resistance to Negative Energy. People are flocking to the available defense out there.
Mezz Protection really is part of it. Being mezzed while a vital part of the game is annoying and people will go to great lengths to protect there ability to go down swinging and not die all tied up. At least if you are swinging you can still implement your strategy for survival.
I don't believe that this means the game is broken in this regard. It does give characters goals to shoot for in high end content to tweak out their toons. What I would suggest is improving some of the other methods of protection.
Possibly by proliferating power pools with:
resistances and allowing for IO resistance bonuses.
Possibly resist disorient, sleep, held, etc powers spread out in a variety of pools to allow for some improvement much like elemental defense works now in IO's.
By bringing other avenues of mitigation in line so that there are more options for tricking out your toons at high levels, I believe the situation can be improved.
We'll always have Paragon.