soft cap obsession


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

So..... how F'D up do you think the markets are gonna be when all the redside players go blueside just to get all theyre IOs???


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I really can't agree to your position at all here. IOs are a time sink. I feel that they are not as quick to obtain as you claim for the wide majority of players. Reasons for that vary. Not all players are power gamers or min/maxers. Not all players like to use the market. Not all players are good at the market or at min/maxing, even if they are willing to do it. Not all players earn many merits/day. For many, many players, high-performance IO builds are something they consider far away and out of reach.
What players consider IOs to be is irrelevant. The fact is that if one simply plays through story arcs and TFs, they will be able IO out a character. This is without ever needing to use the market. I would have agreed with your point pre-merits, but I do not now. Merits have completely trivialized the commitment required to be successful with the Inventions system, even if you save up for every piece.

As for the last underlined comment, absent a survey, I would argue that this is your opinion. Perhaps an opinion based on anecdotal evidence, but an opinion nonetheless. What I am saying is not debatable. Merits allow a player to simply play the story based content and earn rewards without having to do any activity they wouldn't be doing anyway. At worst, they might have to go to the market to buy some salvage. Even then AE took care of that. It is not a timesink, because earning IOs require no activity other than playing the content.

Let's say a player only uses SOs and has never and will never use an IO. That player goes to the Hollows and does the story arcs there. They now have merits which can be converted to rare recipes. They have done nothing other than play the content. They had no intention or goal of earning IOs, but still have the token that can be converted to such. Where is the timesink there?

Quote:
I define time spent following any stick with a carrot at the end as a time sink. Epic time sinks can be bad. I disagree completely with the claim in the #2 definition of "Time Sink" that any time sink is bad. Leveling to the level cap in every MMORPG in existence is a time sink. That time sink is only bad when it is too large.

Your definition of "time sink" is time spent do a degree that the player considers it onerous. I think that's an overly narrow definition, and also a quite subjective one.
Very well, but your definition devalues "timesink" into "time." By your definition it's no different to say that it takes time to IO out a character. And that's my point. If you're not going to give the word any definition that distinguishable from ordinary playtime, then it's completely meaningless.

As I said earlier, CoH/V players are spoiled on how easy it is to obtain gear in this game. What is considered a "hardcore" player here is barely the cost of entry into most MMOs' playspace. I do not agree that IOs require any significant commitment of time. And I do not think having a character with a lot of IOs makes one a 'powergamer.'

I am not complaining about this situation, mind you. If fact, I celebrate it. I think the devs have created the most approachable loot system possible here. I find any complaints that it is difficult to equip a character with IO sets to be nonsensical. Made any easier and you might as well just create a store and sell everything for inf. Which is what I'm sure many who decry this system as too difficult would want.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psynder13 View Post
So..... how F'D up do you think the markets are gonna be when all the redside players go blueside just to get all theyre IOs???
Redside will have even more terrible supply problems. Blueside will be fine, because people will be there and playing and contributing to the market.

What will be interesting is if a person quickly switch back and forth, you might see a very robust smuggling operation as people move goods to redside. Even if it isn't easy to switch back and forth, if inf transfers over without loss, I suspect some folks will load up on nice IOs and switch to redside for trading purposes.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
What players consider IOs to be is irrelevant. The fact is that if one simply plays through story arcs and TFs, they will be able IO out a character. This is without ever needing to use the market. I would have agreed with your point pre-merits, but I do not now. Merits have completely trivialized the commitment required to be successful with the Inventions system, even if you save up for every piece.
You and I clearly have very, very different thresholds for what "IO out" means. I have a character that I'm rather painstakingly taking through pretty much every arc in existence on heroside. Between that and all the TFs needed for TFC, I'm looking at something like 1200 merits total at level 50.

If I used that to buy my IOs, I wouldn't even finish half my build. If I used it what I considered optimally on the market, it would probably get me 3/4 of the way there.

Quote:
What I am saying is not debatable.
Oh, yes it is, for the reasons I just gave. Given that I'm actually going to be hitting pretty near the upper bound for doing all the content, I think that's pretty firm, non-qualitative evidence to the contrary. What remeains subjective is what it means "to IO out".

Quote:
Merits allow a player to simply play the story based content and earn rewards without having to do any activity they wouldn't be doing anyway.
Right. Until, like me, they don't actually earn the merits the need doing that, and they have to go back and earn more. Voila - time sink.

Oh, and it's probably worth reminding you that only the arc holder gets the arc merits unless the arc is run in Ouro or it's a formal TF/SF. So if you team a lot you don't get anything like this number of merits. If you aren't turning off your XP every 5 levels like I am, you don't get this many merits even solo.

Quote:
Let's say a player only uses SOs and has never and will never use an IO. That player goes to the Hollows and does the story arcs there. They now have merits which can be converted to rare recipes. They have done nothing other than play the content. They had no intention or goal of earning IOs, but still have the token that can be converted to such. Where is the timesink there?
You're treating IOs like they're something most people are "done" with by going and grabbing 1-2 random ones. Sure, they can be treated that way, but if you use them maximally, they're nothing like that. They take more effort (read: time) to obtain.


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Posted

i'm hoping they will finally merge the markets with GR. that said, IOs in and of themselves may not be a timesink, but crafting is.


 

Posted

First, to those that say "what if I can't afford all that expensive..." Hold on, stop RIGHT there!

On an archetype that actually has defense abilities (like, say, shield/ tanker), you can soft cap by somewhere between level 30 and 40, JUST from creating and selling the IOs that give a profit and the salvage that sells well from regular leveling.

I am not talking about AE. I do not do it, and I do not want to, so I can not speak for or against the money it will or will not make you.

Radio missions, teams, varying sizes, from solo to 8 person... you make enough. You do not have to "play the BM mini game", you just have to check the price, and sell it if it's a decent profit. For recipes you have to actually search for the price of the recipe and the IO it makes.

This is not a long process nor is it rocket science. Sell at, say, 80%-90% of the going mid range price, and you will have enough to softcap defense in all areas on a defensive set.

Softcapping defense on a domi, while extremely funny, really wasn't meant to happen, and while "everyone does it" I don't, and I still mash face pretty nicely.

Now... as for how to FIX things? Simple.
Bigger defense bonuses for actual powers.
more to hit bonuses on mobs.

Softcapping defense is only really powerful against mobs with +0 to hit. As I understand, +acc works directly against +def on a 1 to 1 basis. Now if I am incorrect in this, I apologize, and please correct me.

Point is mob +acc is very rarely used that I have seen. Very few mobs have it, and those that do are easy enough to avoid because they are so few.

Yes, those who have squishy archetypes that are no longer so ... well... nonsquishy... will scream, but as long as someone the game devs intended to be softcapped can still dodge like a champ, the QQing won't carry that much weight... because frankly, most people who have softcapped their blaster's defense KNEW it was kind of abusive, and SHOULD expect a chance it will be eventually busted.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobylis View Post
more to hit bonuses on mobs.
This is the second-worst idea I have ever heard.

Quote:
Softcapping defense is only really powerful against mobs with +0 to hit. As I understand, +acc works directly against +def on a 1 to 1 basis. Now if I am incorrect in this, I apologize, and please correct me.
To-hit directly counteracts defense. Accuracy works differently.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobylis View Post
more to hit bonuses on mobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobylis View Post
Yes, those who have squishy archetypes that are no longer so ... well... nonsquishy... will scream, but as long as someone the game devs intended to be softcapped can still dodge like a champ, the QQing won't carry that much weight...
Those statements are a direct contradiction. Mobs with +ToHit are a defense toons bane. So every defense set in the game is made worse for the sake of IO bonuses. So those Super Reflex, and Shield Defense, and Energy Aura powersets that normal, non-IO players use are now worse.


 

Posted

I think the solution to the softcap IO'd defense issue is to have more enemies with -def, and to ensure that +def from primary/secondary powers includes defense resistance.

The characters who gain defense from their power sets won't really be subject to cascading defense failure, whereas softcapped Blasters would be.


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Posted

More foes with -def is a bad idea. There is already a ton of -def in the game. Almost every gun or bladed weapon has some -def components. Many enemy groups have at least 1-3 foes with guns or blades .


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohenien View Post
More foes with -def is a bad idea. There is already a ton of -def in the game. Almost every gun or bladed weapon has some -def components. Many enemy groups have at least 1-3 foes with guns or blades .
What's your point? Enemies with -def against players with defense resistance (Super Reflexes, for example) can't really do much. Against players without defense resistance (softcapped Blasters, for example), the battle begins with the critters having a hard time hitting, but each successful hit makes the following attacks more likely to hit, which then make the player even easier to hit, and so on.

For characters with defense sets, it wouldn't really be a problem, as they'd be nearly immune to cascading defense failure. For characters relying entirely on IOs for defense, they would eventually succumb to CDF, which would remove "defense" from being the end-all, be-all IO set bonus.

More enemies with -def. More Res(def) for defense sets. Result: Defense set bonuses are not so overwhelmingly attractive compared to other bonuses.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
What's your point? Enemies with -def against players with defense resistance (Super Reflexes, for example) can't really do much. Against players without defense resistance (softcapped Blasters, for example), the battle begins with the critters having a hard time hitting, but each successful hit makes the following attacks more likely to hit, which then make the player even easier to hit, and so on.
Shield Defense has something like 50% defense resistance before you start involving high-recharge shenanigans to multistack Active Defense. Council regularly drop my (SOed, late-20s) shield scrapper into the deep negatives with their assault rifles, as do Warriors with their blades. I live with it, but saying that increasing defense debuffs won't affect defense sets indicates a misunderstanding of just how effective defense resistance is.


 

Posted

... did you miss the part where I said "add more defense resistance to defense sets"? There's no misunderstanding of how useful defense resistance is; some current defensive sets just don't really have significant amounts of it.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
... did you miss the part where I said "add more defense resistance to defense sets"? There's no misunderstanding of how useful defense resistance is; some current defensive sets just don't really have significant amounts of it.
Well, specifically what you said was "make sure defense from primary/secondary powers includes defense resistance" (which they do) and "Enemies with -def against players with defense resistance (Super Reflexes, for example) can't really do much."

The latter is untrue for sets other than Super Reflexes, and led me not to read into your first statement the added clause "...in sufficiently drastic amounts that those are not prone to cascading defense failure". With that clause added, more -def isn't a completely terrible idea but is still not, I feel, as good a solution as either reducing the amount of total defense bonus you can get from IOs or adding readily-available competitive options.

One idea I wouldn't mind seeing: boost the IO bonus for resists and such, then cap the total available IO bonus to global values at a point where a defense set can softcap defense or a resist set can cap resists but someone without such a set will just be "better than he was before". Obviously, give out a respec with the change so that the enraged hordes can adjust their slotting to suit.


 

Posted

I'd rather see def caps lowered for some ATs than have more -def in the game. -def is around plenty, but having everyone cap out at 45% doesn't seem balanced to me.

Keep in mind that I play pretty much every AT blueside, and quite a few redside, and I still think this- I'm not trying to see one AT come out on top of the defense race. I just think it would make for more parity among ATs, and get the game a bit more challenging, too.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
I'd rather see def caps lowered for some ATs than have more -def in the game. -def is around plenty, but having everyone cap out at 45% doesn't seem balanced to me.

Keep in mind that I play pretty much every AT blueside, and quite a few redside, and I still think this- I'm not trying to see one AT come out on top of the defense race. I just think it would make for more parity among ATs, and get the game a bit more challenging, too.
Lowering the Defense softcaps for other ATs is the easy way of saying: "I wanna tank on my Blaster, and I dont wanna spend that much Inf on it".

Honestly, the balancing portion of this is that the ATs that get Defense buffs HAVE DEF BUFFS. Granted, it's 100% Possible to softcap ranged def on a blaster, but at what cost to damage, a blasters primary role? As it is, any AT can get softcapped defense to at least 1 position, and to do so means to sacrifice alot of build room. The whole point is to promote people to stay focused on their primary role.

Take for instance my Crab, He's at the softcap for all 3 positions. I took provoke, extra leadership powers, tough and weave and IO'd him for nothing but survivabilty. His Resists are around 50% to all, he has softcapped Defenses, and a Strong Self Heal/+HP Power, along with a group damage and ToHit buff and 21% defnse for my whole team. I tank on him. The only downside is his damage. If I had slotted +Acc, +Dam and took more ranged attacks, his DPS would be fantastic. As it is, his DPS is lacking in comparison to other Crabs, but is fantastic compared to tankers. The only drawback is his low base HP, which is only 1300ish without Serum active (with it its more like 2000). The point si that I spent so much of his build focusing on his Defense and Survivabilty that there's no way he can DPS like other Crabs can. Lowering the Defense Softcap for Arachnos Soldiers would mean I could change my build to include more Damage buffs, include the nuke and maybe even the pets, which would effectively double his damage or more, ALONG with being able to tank (Or I could get more +HP buffs and get to around 1600 instead). Granted, I woundnt complain, but It would be VERY overpowered.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler View Post
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona View Post
more -def isn't a completely terrible idea but is still not, I feel, as good a solution as either reducing the amount of total defense bonus you can get from IOs or adding readily-available competitive options.
I don't think reducing defense bonuses is a good idea; it'll just make the people that spent billions on their defense IO build angry, and won't do a whole lot for solving the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
I'd rather see def caps lowered for some ATs than have more -def in the game. -def is around plenty, but having everyone cap out at 45% doesn't seem balanced to me.
Nobody "caps out" at 45%. Brutes and Tankers cap out their Defense at 225.05% at lv21+. Kheldians, Scrappers, and Stalkers cap at 200.38%. The rest of the ATs cap at 175%.

The issue is that with the way attack mechanics work, it is very very very rarely useful to have more than 45% defense. The only way adjusting caps would work would be if some AT's Defense caps were reduced below 45% (in which case they'd never be capable of hitting the softcap, which I don't really think would be fair for a team of squishies), or if attack mechanics themselves were calculated on a per-AT basis (which is a really bad idea).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
I don't think reducing defense bonuses is a good idea; it'll just make the people that spent billions on their defense IO build angry, and won't do a whole lot for solving the issue.
Any solution that works will anger people who spent massive amounts of inf making themselves untouchable.

I'm not proposing necessarily reducing the benefits from a given set, but rather setting a specific value of maximum possible total IO bonus to any given defense. The value would ideally be one that is just high enough that it allows players with defense-oriented sets to reach the softcap, while still restricting characters who are starting from nothing to "only" a major increase in survivability. (Don't forget that a blaster who "only" has 15% defense, for example, is still taking about 30% less damage than he would without IO bonuses, and isn't giving up any of his other survival tools or much if any of his offense.)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
I don't think reducing defense bonuses is a good idea; it'll just make the people that spent billions on their defense IO build angry, and won't do a whole lot for solving the issue.
Reducing the amount of defense from IOs and screwing over those who spent billions to softcap is a whole lot better than adding more -Def and screwing over everyone.


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Posted

So 45% is considered okay for PvP? Or should one go higher than that for PvP?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowraithe View Post
So 45% is considered okay for PvP? Or should one go higher than that for PvP?
Keep in mind that if you give yourself 45% under normal circumstances, it probably won't be 45% in PvP thanks to diminishing returns.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowraithe View Post
So 45% is considered okay for PvP? Or should one go higher than that for PvP?

no npcs hit chance is 50% so 45% def works good, real players hit chance is 75% plus they have stuff slotted into attacks for accuracy plus accuracy set bonues and to-hit bonuses. Defence isnt the greatest for pvp to say the least.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky666 View Post
no npcs hit chance is 50% so 45% def works good, real players hit chance is 75% plus they have stuff slotted into attacks for accuracy plus accuracy set bonues and to-hit bonuses. Defence isnt the greatest for pvp to say the least.
This is not correct. Anything attacking a player, including another player, has a base 50% chance to hit.

Any player attacking a critter has a base 75% chance to hit.

Any critter attacking anything has a base 50% chance to hit.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_M...#BaseHitChance


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