15 scrappers in RV, 2 tanks, 2 blasters, 0 trollers, 0 defenders.
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2010-01-26 07:30 in Everything about PvP
Honestly, surviving on anything with hibernate IN A ZONE is no harder than surviving on a regin or tank or stalker....in some cases even easier. You get in trouble, you hiber, then phase and run to drones. It's not hard. People have done it for years.
That said, skeet IS wrong. But not because surviving being outnumbered is impossible. It's because surviving means absolutely nothing unless you can actually get kills. After I13, being outnumbered essentially means you have no chance of accomplishing anything except surviving. You could literally be the best player in the world, going against the 5 worst players in the world. And chances are, the 5 will win, because that's specifically what Castle wanted. This is totally different from ANY truly competitive game (like an FPS), where the best player in the world could go against 20 of the worst players, and completely own them.
Point is, it doesn't matter how "smart" you play...or what "strategy" you use. The best you can hope for is to survive by running to drones. If you want a chance of actually doing something though, you really do need at least somewhat even sides.
Quote:
Unless you don't have phase, get camped when you go into Hibernate, or are all the way across the zone from your base...
|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Honestly, surviving on anything with hibernate IN A ZONE is no harder than surviving on a regin or tank or stalker....in some cases even easier. You get in trouble, you hiber, then phase and run to drones. It's not hard. People have done it for years.
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
. . . but the changes were to prevent you from being a pocket healer for someone farming the zone. [/sarcasm]
|
Originally Posted by Psoma
Bingo. I'm built for for buffing, survivability, and evasion. i13 comes along...and DR hurts of course, but the HD and TS severely limit my potential to say the least. I started to type out a lot more here, but I'm going to refrain from e-raging regarding the dumbing down of PvP.
|
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting it's possible to dodge every bullet. Sometimes you just take your lumps and hit the hospital, I get that. That being said...|
Originally Posted by macskull
The I13 changes have meant that "play smarter" is no longer an option when you're outnumbered on a squishy. You get webbed, you can't heal, and phase isn't up. What do you do? Hope the people chasing you are downies, or die. If you're on a melee AT (not a Stalker as those are basically Blasters with mez resistance these days) this doesn't apply because those are still retardedly easy to stay alive on.
|
Not every gank squad is created equal. Some powers and power sets and FAR easier to evade than others and many times in RV the collection of people that latch onto you in a given gank can be very random and frequently will lack that extra something to close the deal and they don't all come auto-equipped with webnades.
There are also two very different kinds of outnumbered. There's the kind when you have 3 heroes and 15 villains in the zone and you just say forget it and go do a tf. Then there's the kind where numbers are fairly even overall or at least not too lopsided but since you're a squishy you draw lots of agro and have to be able to evade it for brief stretches until you lose it, they die, you regroup with your team, etc.
Quote:
| Unless you don't have phase, get camped when you go into Hibernate, or are all the way across the zone from your base... |
The only real way of evading without hiber or phase atm is breaking LOS. If RV wasn't such a poorly designed zone it might actually be a viable option. RV for the most part is one big open zone. If you compare it to other zones that were actually designed for PvP like warburg, sirens call and even bloody bay, they all have buildings and other objects to break LOS throughout the map.
Hopefully in the future we'll actually get a PvP map that was designed with PvP in mind and not just another copy paste like RV is. On second thought, since it seems like they want us to die and have no chance of evasion outside of hiber and phase, it will probably end up being a open field or something.
Quote:
Have a friend, say a fleet admiral in the virtuous vanguard, log on the opposing team's side and team recall the opposing players into the drones.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
I'd be willing to hear you how when you explain how you can tactically get away from anything in a zone after being webbed and 2+ people are attacking you aside of making it back to the base after you run out of HP.
Bonus points if you come up with a way to do it while toggle debuffed. -points if you say "Phase/wait for phase to come up before you go out" -points if you explain how to do it on a stalker, Scrapper or Tank. |
BOOM WHERE IS MY POINTS?!?
-Kiri
Quote:
warrirs field, where manly men can do battle without insps and no escaping
|
Originally Posted by SmegHead
The only real way of evading without hiber or phase atm is breaking LOS. If RV wasn't such a poorly designed zone it might actually be a viable option. RV for the most part is one big open zone. If you compare it to other zones that were actually designed for PvP like warburg, sirens call and even bloody bay, they all have buildings and other objects to break LOS throughout the map.
Hopefully in the future we'll actually get a PvP map that was designed with PvP in mind and not just another copy paste like RV is. On second thought, since it seems like they want us to die and have no chance of evasion outside of hiber and phase, it will probably end up being a open field or something. |
Quote:
Maybe with just a few shrubberies that randomly explode?|
Originally Posted by SmegHead
On second thought, since it seems like they want us to die and have no chance of evasion outside of hiber and phase, it will probably end up being a open field or something.
|
As for Hibernate, not-surviving it is only so much an issue if you are the only one of your side in the zone.
On the two big servers' RV, going into ice age mode usually isnt done in a void, but with other players of both sides around you, so the iceberg's enemies are too busy fighting its side-mates to siege the ice to catch the very millisecond before it burst off, or the encapsuled has all the time in the world to tell his teammates that he is frozen at the train station, there are three villains around, one stalker that has gone into hiding right under the station, another stalker and a corrupter that are standing right next to me too busy staring to notice you coming, together with a /WP brute that doesnt really count because Willpower is worthless in PvP, so please come over to save me, ask anybody around you to come too, come quick but there is no need to utterly rush it because I still have half a minute in here.
Basically.
Quote:
Souljaswagstatus.
|
Originally Posted by IcyKiri
Have a friend, say a fleet admiral in the virtuous vanguard, log on the opposing team's side and team recall the opposing players into the drones.
BOOM WHERE IS MY POINTS?!? -Kiri |
Quote:
Well, yeah if people don't take a power that lets them survive, that's their own fault. But in my experience, where you hibernate isn't really important. The only thing that matters is like 5 secs after you come out of hiber. If you can get past the initial wave of people that were camping you (of course with phase), as long as you keep running, you're good, because everybody attacking you gets suppressed for it.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Unless you don't have phase, get camped when you go into Hibernate, or are all the way across the zone from your base...
|
The only exception is if several of the people camping you are top players, in which case yeah, you're probably screwed. But for several top players to be camping the same person in hiber....that just doesn't happen too often in zones.
i like beig hibernated and watch the hungry scrappers and blasters get AS´d
Quote:
TRU WARRIORZ style....|
Originally Posted by Terror1
warrirs field, where manly men can do battle without insps and no escaping
|
lol FITEKLUB
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
I'm curious. Most of the replies in this thread seem to suggest it's a bad thing that 2 (or 3 or 5 or whatever) people with webnade can usually finish a kill.
My question is this... flipping around the evasion issue, how many people do you think you should need to have vs 1 person to prevent them from evading and finish the kill. Not how many are required under the game as it stands but what number in your opinion do you think should be able to close the deal?
Quote:
You can't flip around the evasion issue, that's the thing. Prior to I13 you could have a team of two experienced PvPers wreaking havoc on entire enemy teams simply because they were more skilled and more coordinated. Now, unless you're a melee character you don't stand much of a chance if you're outnumbered and phase/Hibernate isn't up, which completely removes skill from the equation (evasion, prioritizing targets, inspiration management, situational awareness, etc.).|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
I'm curious. Most of the replies in this thread seem to suggest it's a bad thing that 2 (or 3 or 5 or whatever) people with webnade can usually finish a kill.
My question is this... flipping around the evasion issue, how many people do you think you should need to have vs 1 person to prevent them from evading and finish the kill. Not how many are required under the game as it stands but what number in your opinion do you think should be able to close the deal? |
The issue is that under the new ruleset, those 3-5 people don't have to work for their kill because after a certain point the mechanics give them that kill (don't need to have coordinated spikes because heal decay means you can just keep clicking buttons until your target dies). I know I'm a better player than most of the random melees I see in zones, but it's incredibly frustrating to die to them when there's absolutely nothing I can do. It's one of the reasons I can barely stand zone PvP anymore - prior to I13 there were lots of valid tactics and at the same time there were ways to counter those tactics, and now the tactics are different and there are no ways to counter them.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by macskull
You can't flip around the evasion issue, that's the thing. Prior to I13 you could have a team of two experienced PvPers wreaking havoc on entire enemy teams simply because they were more skilled and more coordinated. Now, unless you're a melee character you don't stand much of a chance if you're outnumbered and phase/Hibernate isn't up, which completely removes skill from the equation (evasion, prioritizing targets, inspiration management, situational awareness, etc.).
The issue is that under the new ruleset, those 3-5 people don't have to work for their kill because after a certain point the mechanics give them that kill (don't need to have coordinated spikes because heal decay means you can just keep clicking buttons until your target dies). I know I'm a better player than most of the random melees I see in zones, but it's incredibly frustrating to die to them when there's absolutely nothing I can do. It's one of the reasons I can barely stand zone PvP anymore - prior to I13 there were lots of valid tactics and at the same time there were ways to counter those tactics, and now the tactics are different and there are no ways to counter them. |
after a month of almost nightly arena pvp with HD off and TS off, i've almost completely stopped playing in zone.
i'll log in, throw a few snipes, arrows, etc get raged a dying only because of stupid stupid rules and go pve. dying because of HD and TS only gets old after a while.
Quote:
I was in RV once with my Ice/Kin Troller ... did a /whoall... saw who all was there did an |
Originally Posted by black_barrier
Wonder if it's a sign... maybe something's broken when it comes to "DR on, TS on, HD on" PVP and scrappers...
|
and left
Quote:
Something along the lines of that is the main reason why PvP sucks right now imo.|
Originally Posted by macskull
... Now, unless you're a melee character you don't stand much of a chance if you're outnumbered and phase/Hibernate isn't up, which completely removes skill from the equation (evasion, prioritizing targets, inspiration management, situational awareness, etc.). ... but it's incredibly frustrating to die to them when there's absolutely nothing I can do. It's one of the reasons I can barely stand zone PvP anymore - prior to I13 there were lots of valid tactics and at the same time there were ways to counter those tactics, and now the tactics are different and there are no ways to counter them.
|
I only casually PvPed, but before I13, when I defeated someone quickly, I felt that I got lucky or came upon someone that was really unskilled or inexperienced. When it was a long good fight, I was proud, almost regardless of outcome. When I got defeated, I felt it was because the one that did so was more skilled/experienced or maybe I didnt use my powers right, and I admired the ones good enough to defeat what was a good build in PvE and could stomach what I threw at them that had effects close to PvE.
It felt like you could play basically everything in PvP, and what mattered was mostly skill and experience, to an extent your build, and then some what you had slotted and some luck.
Now, when someone survives against more than one skilled player it's because they are /Regen, when someone can break from such a fight it's because they have at least one of very few powers that you have to have for that, and whenever I defeat someone it is always because I was in a team, for I am no use alone because PvP rules break my powerset.
I dont feel proud for the few kills I do, nor do I think it is a sign of skill or good thinking to get the better of me, and I definitely dont think someone is more skilled than I am when they can survive with the help of cool powers or benefits that my powerset or AT does not have or cannot take.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
My question is this... flipping around the evasion issue, how many people do you think you should need to have vs 1 person to prevent them from evading and finish the kill. Not how many are required under the game as it stands but what number in your opinion do you think should be able to close the deal?
|
A single good player that put powers into his build to stop a runner that didn't put lots of building effort into preventing just that should have a fair chance to get that runner, while if the runner did put something for that into his build and is more skilled or experience than his pursuers he should have a fair chance of escaping even a team of 8.
IF <player encounters a big team> THEN
{
. <player gets mezzed because mez protection is not allowed>
. <player get slowed down because Travel Surpression kicks in>
. IF <player is /Regenerate* and other players are not PvP builds> THEN
. {
. . <player can survive and tiptoe to base very slowly in between mezzes>
. }
. ELSE
. {
. . IF <player has Hibernate or Phase*> THEN
. . {
. . . <player can get away>
. . }
. . ELSE
. . {
. . . <player is dead>
. . }
. }
}
is not fun.
*maybe I forgot some set/power/combination here that can do that too, but you get the idea
Quote:
YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD NEXT TO THE ZONE PEOPLE!!!|
Originally Posted by IcyKiri
Have a friend, say a fleet admiral in the virtuous vanguard, log on the opposing team's side and team recall the opposing players into the drones.
BOOM WHERE IS MY POINTS?!? -Kiri |
But yeah, points are in the mail. 6 to 8 weeks for delivery. Shipping and handling costs apply
Quote:
Perfect explanation.|
Originally Posted by macskull
those 3-5 people don't have to work for their kill because after a certain point the mechanics give them that kill .
|
The number of people you should be able to get away from varies...or at least used to vary, based on skill. Like mac said, 2 people could roll the zone if they were significanlty better than the rest of the players. And that's how it should be.
Now it's laughable to even think that could happen. You could have the best 2 players in CoH history, and if they're outnumbered like 10 to 2, they will get completely wrecked by complete newbies....because that is how the game is designed now.
Maybe if we send them more weed they'll fix things...eventually.
Excuse me while I put my pants on my head.
What if a FFA zone was like randomized kickball, and whenever you zoned in, you were automatically assigned to the faction with less people.
Someone with superior RP vision than me please justify this.
When I used to play FPSs that's what they did. Of course there's just little more balance in FPS PvP than in CoH.
Quote:
lolRP.|
Originally Posted by Gerswin
What if a FFA zone was like randomized kickball, and whenever you zoned in, you were automatically assigned to the faction with less people.
Someone with superior RP vision than me please justify this. |
one of the main problems with CoH.
having devs that play lolmagicthegathering and real life DnD means we get stuck with a subpar pvp experience because these guys weren't raised on Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat like most dedicated pvpers (ie, the ones that actually know the deal).
Quote:
i think silit said something like: in i13 good players get too supressed to be good anymore.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Perfect explanation.
The number of people you should be able to get away from varies...or at least used to vary, based on skill. Like mac said, 2 people could roll the zone if they were significanlty better than the rest of the players. And that's how it should be. Now it's laughable to even think that could happen. You could have the best 2 players in CoH history, and if they're outnumbered like 10 to 2, they will get completely wrecked by complete newbies....because that is how the game is designed now. |
Quote:
|
lolRP. one of the main problems with CoH. having devs that play lolmagicthegathering and real life DnD means we get stuck with a subpar pvp experience because these guys weren't raised on Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat like most dedicated pvpers (ie, the ones that actually know the deal). |
The time to pay attention and play smarter is when you're outnumbered.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."