15 scrappers in RV, 2 tanks, 2 blasters, 0 trollers, 0 defenders.
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2010-01-26 07:30 in Everything about PvP
Quote:
Got to agree with this one on several counts ...|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
tl;dr Scrappers are a PVP archetype used primarily by newbies & bad players. The new PVP system is so heavily biased in their favor, adhering to their requests (not using inspirations/not running) would be ridiculous.
Okay I'm going to post up a mature reply to your post Stone Daemon. I'm not doing this because you deserve it. I'm doing it because I don't want you to think the "LOL GTFO BADDO" responses you're getting are indicative of the people on this forum hiding their "wrongness" behind a mask of 1337 memes and adolescant humor. They're not wrong, they're just bored of talking about "honor" and inspirations. First of all, there is no such thing as "honor" in a video game. I don't fight with honor in Tekken, Street Fighter, Fallout 3, COD4, L4D, Chess, Monopoly, tic tac toe, etc. I play to win. City of heroes is a VIDEO GAME and there is no such thing as honor in a video game. I play it to win it. I know a lot of players invest a lot of time & in-game money in their characters. But that is no excuse to use your character as an extension of yourself. Realise that if you're asking someone else to CHANGE THE WAY THEY ARE PLAYING to accomodate you, than you are being ridiculous. In short: Play 2 win. It's a game. Secondly, not using inspirations shows a clear lack of skill. It shows that you're not able to ration how often you use them. It shows you don't know which ones to bring to counter different enemies / different situations. Inspirations act as YET ONE MORE THING you need to micro-manage. (The player not using inspirations has one less thing to worry about and thusly has an easier time operating his character.) To this end, it takes more skill to use inspirations than to not use them. But let's get into why you thought that people should fight "with honor" and "without inspirations". Something I find very often in newbies is something I call REGEN BIAS. This is a mindset many new players (or bad players) have by which they think that PVP should exist in a way that makes them as good as they are in PVE. This isn't unique to regen scrappers or even scrappers as a whole, but it is so ridiculous that most serious people just tend to respond to them with "LOL FITEKLUB GTFO". (In the same way you would tell a crazy man to "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME.") It's called "regen bias" because most regen scrappers subscribe to this mentality. Regen scrappers don't need to use inspirations; so they wrongly assume their enemies don't need to either. Regen scrappers are durable enough to stand and fight "with honor"; so they wrongly assume their enemies are capable of this also. What players suffering Regen Bias don't realise is that different archetypes survive by different methods. Scrappers and tanks survive by being innately durable. But blasters & other ranged damage characters must survive by being evasive. Stalkers have to survive by being stealthy. It all makes sense if you take the time to consider what the different characters have to do to kill & stay alive in PVP. Stone Daemon I hope you don't take any of the hostility shown towards you on a personal level. It's not you the PVP regulars are raging at, it's more what you represent. You represent a large contingent of the PVP population which is not prepared to educate themselves to how PVP ACTUALLy works & will instead moan and whine and hope the developers change things. This is what lead to thee atrocious changes in Issue 13... something that ruined the game for a lot of the more serious PVPers among us. I suppose in this new light you can understand the hostility? It was people "like you" that caused this game's PVP to be changed in the first place. |
Inspirations arent dishonorable its just a piece of the game mechanics to be used as needed i use them on every toon i have.. to survive is just as much part of pvp/pve gaming as to kill lol
The general feeling of pve overpowerment in comparison to pvp feelings of squishyness lol Most newer people to pvp prei13 or after go threw this adjustment.
On a side note sometimes the forums are a little umm "egocentic" lol been here since cov went live.. didnt register or post for long time
Still i dont post much except that now during lunch at work i can hit the forums n troll a bit lol
I pvp'd pre i13 and post i13 does .. causually pvp'd bout 3yrs ago as time went on i got more n more into it and within last yr and a half i pvp regularly
The regualr posters have no idea who i am .. does that make my opinion any less credible? even if i was new to pvp does that mean i should be automatically laughed at..
Chill guys lighten up on people .. it really does chase people away .. without new or old people in the zone u get less recipies lol for that reason alone play nice on the forums lol
I just know im about to get smacked off the head for this lol but i feel bad for some these folks here lol.
"runs away:"
Quote:
You shouldn't feel bad, because if they ask a question and don't get the response they want they throw a fit like my kids did when they were young. Most people that get rolled in a zone, never asked the question on how or what they could have done to prevent it or any other strats that could have helped them out, nor do they want to learn. They want their godlike PvE toon to be just just as Godlike in PvP and they want their opponent to act like the AI programmed in the game, and stand there and do nothing but take damage and deal damage until one falls. Too bad we aren't programmed AI's and also use all the things the game allows us to use when we PvP.|
Originally Posted by capnkangaroo
I just know im about to get smacked off the head for this lol but i feel bad for some these folks here lol.
" |
Stone: Don't like it, don't do it. If you do like it and maybe want to get better then go mess around in the zones more or signup for the league and get on one of the league D6 teams and ask questions and learn about arena/team PvP, but you are definately going to have to drop the no insp thing.
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
Quote:
I did lol but was ingame with sg friends |
Originally Posted by Psyrene
Most people that get rolled in a zone, never asked the question on how or what they could have done to prevent it or any other strats that could have helped them out, nor do they want to learn.
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im still trying to find out how i can get my hands on an "i Win" Button .. is that a Vet reward?lol
I appreciate your response, Xanatos.
I understand where you (and all you other people) are coming from on the inspiration thing. I do. Like I said, it's a personal thing. I don't play to win (Le gasp, heresy!), I actually play just to have fun. Unfortunately, it seems I'm one of the few that does. Sure, it's fun to win. Duh. But I like to test my build to see how good it is against other people by NOT using break frees/lucks/etc. To ya'll, Its a valid tactic, and I see where you're coming from. To me, however, it's a crutch. In my eyes, if you have to rely on inspirations to beat your opponent, you haven't made your build good enough. Obviously, if your opponent is gobbling them up, it would then give the green light for me to do the same. I hope you can at least see where I'm coming with this. 
I don't "ask" anyone to change how they play, I just play the way I prefer to. Throughout your post you said I want people to play without inspirations. I don't! Thats why I said it's a personal preferance of MINE. You can do things your way, and I'll do them mine.
Perhaps you chose a wrong example by talking about regen scrappers. I can't stand them, but I think I got the gist of what you were trying to say about the whole natural immunity. Yes, scrappers/tanks get mezz protection toggles. It gives them a natural defense against it. I understand how that is unfair to other ATs in pvp, and is probably why mostly scrappers/tanks end up in the zone. There are lots of different strategies for the other ATs to do, and as I've said a couple times already, the devs, with their damn knee jerk reaction to complaints, invalidated the ability of people that rely on mezzes to win. Somewhere along the line of this thread, either someone took my words out of context, or I let some bad experiences with Perma dom gankers get to me, but I don't (or didn't, I suppose) have that much of a problem with them.
I don't take anything anyone says about me personally here, if only because most of the negative comments are (I hope) made by 12-20 year olds that don't have any online manners. I really doubt I "represent" anything (unless you paint a bullseye on me) because, to be frank, I don't pvp enough to care. I've never complained to anyone that any aspects of pvp was unfair/unbalanced, because I simply don't care enough.
Quote:
If you don't wanna use inspirations that's cool but most with your same opinion will either rage out in broadcast or come to the forums and rage cause others use what's available to them and then we end up with I13. Hopefully you can see where we are coming from.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I appreciate your response, Xanatos.
I understand where you (and all you other people) are coming from on the inspiration thing. I do. Like I said, it's a personal thing. I don't play to win (Le gasp, heresy!), I actually play just to have fun. Unfortunately, it seems I'm one of the few that does. Sure, it's fun to win. Duh. But I like to test my build to see how good it is against other people by NOT using break frees/lucks/etc. To ya'll, Its a valid tactic, and I see where you're coming from. To me, however, it's a crutch. In my eyes, if you have to rely on inspirations to beat your opponent, you haven't made your build good enough. Obviously, if your opponent is gobbling them up, it would then give the green light for me to do the same. I hope you can at least see where I'm coming with this. I don't "ask" anyone to change how they play, I just play the way I prefer to. Throughout your post you said I want people to play without inspirations. I don't! Thats why I said it's a personal preferance of MINE. You can do things your way, and I'll do them mine.Perhaps you chose a wrong example by talking about regen scrappers. I can't stand them, but I think I got the gist of what you were trying to say about the whole natural immunity. Yes, scrappers/tanks get mezz protection toggles. It gives them a natural defense against it. I understand how that is unfair to other ATs in pvp, and is probably why mostly scrappers/tanks end up in the zone. There are lots of different strategies for the other ATs to do, and as I've said a couple times already, the devs, with their damn knee jerk reaction to complaints, invalidated the ability of people that rely on mezzes to win. Somewhere along the line of this thread, either someone took my words out of context, or I let some bad experiences with Perma dom gankers get to me, but I don't (or didn't, I suppose) have that much of a problem with them. I don't take anything anyone says about me personally here, if only because most of the negative comments are (I hope) made by 12-20 year olds that don't have any online manners. I really doubt I "represent" anything (unless you paint a bullseye on me) because, to be frank, I don't pvp enough to care. I've never complained to anyone that any aspects of pvp was unfair/unbalanced, because I simply don't care enough. |
Quote:
Yeah, I can definately see people whining about it. Like I said, if the opponent eats em up, I'll do the same. But thats after I see how I measure up without them.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
If you don't wanna use inspirations that's cool but most with your same opinion will either rage out in broadcast or come to the forums and rage cause others use what's available to them and then we end up with I13. Hopefully you can see where we are coming from.
|
Quote:
With respect, I think you're slightly confused. Inspirations are used to make up for holes in what an archetype can do. There are certain things that no build can counter, regrdless of how "good" it is. Blasters have no self heal so they have to take greens. Builds alone have no way of countering -recovery & -end debuffs so people need blues when fighting thermals. Blasters & other squishies don't have mez protection so may need to use break frees. These are just a few examples. Inspirations help balance the already heavily unbalanced PVP landscape.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
To me, however, it's a crutch. In my eyes, if you have to rely on inspirations to beat your opponent, you haven't made your build good enough.
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Ironically I am of the opinion that not using inspirations is a crutch. A crutch that bad players use as an excuse as to why they lost / why they were not able to defeat a player. (I.e: "You only beat me because you used insps!") This crutch allows bad players something known as a "morale victory." Something which has absolutely no value in a video game.
Play the game however you want Stone Daemon. It's your $15. But please do not post value judgements in an open forum and expect people not to defend themselves. Especially those players with considerably more PVP experience than yourself.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I really doubt I "represent" anything (unless you paint a bullseye on me) because, to be frank, I don't pvp enough to care. I've never complained to anyone that any aspects of pvp was unfair/unbalanced, because I simply don't care enough.
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Quote:
You forget, this isn't feudal Japan. This is a videogame. There is win or lose, therefore I will do everything in my power outside of exploits to win and not lose. Regarding the permadom bit: I'm not sure where it all came from but I am kind of chuckling that you'd bring up permadoms wrecking face and then go off on a tangent about not using inspirations. Of course you'll get wrecked by something if you don't use the counters you have available.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Obviously you all think that bringing break frees is the end all argument to beat Doms. (I don't really see how we got off track of the original discussion, but I'll roll with it.) It's a valid tactic. I don't have a problem with that. However, it's a tactic I personally find dishonorable. You guys go ahead and spam inspirations, I'd rather let the better build/player win the fight--sans inspirations, unless I see that they're eating them up.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
I was one, but there was a lot of research to the point of putting truck loads of numbers into excel. However I never came up with the changes.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Sadly it was people that "didn't care" about PVP that got it nerfed for the people that did care by complaining too much & researching too little.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Perhaps you weren't huffing enough glue.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I was one, but there was a lot of research to the point of putting truck loads of numbers into excel. However I never came up with the changes.
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Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The PVP League has really woken me up to how bad Heal Decay and Travel Suppression really are. Phase is the only evade in RV. What a stupid STUPID game mechanic. lolPVP indeed.
Yes, in their (not very much a good intention to start with imo) attempt to level the field so that no AT shall be super strong at its field of expertise anymore (and in return have some disadvantages in other aspects - Sheesh, blasters are e.g. not meant to be tough. They are supposed to be glass cannons. Blasters. Just because you can overplay the negative sides of ATs in PvE or turn the difficulty down so much you dont notice them doesnt mean they are not supposed to be there.) ...
In that attempt a lot of things (powers and powersets included) became very worthless while others that have similar effects remained mostly or totally unaffected. Of course it is not much fun when your stuff becomes worthless in PvP while your opponent's still works, and you likely dont even have the means to counter it anymore.
And a lot of what still works fine is easily available to scrappers so a lot of people play scrappers.
Yes, it was much more fun to me when I thought enough skill could make any build work. But now...
tl;dr Scrappers are a PVP archetype used primarily by newbies & bad players. The new PVP system is so heavily biased in their favor, adhering to their requests (not using inspirations/not running) would be ridiculous.
Okay I'm going to post up a mature reply to your post Stone Daemon. I'm not doing this because you deserve it. I'm doing it because I don't want you to think the "LOL GTFO BADDO" responses you're getting are indicative of the people on this forum hiding their "wrongness" behind a mask of 1337 memes and adolescant humor. They're not wrong, they're just bored of talking about "honor" and inspirations.
I know a lot of players invest a lot of time & in-game money in their characters. But that is no excuse to use your character as an extension of yourself. Realise that if you're asking someone else to CHANGE THE WAY THEY ARE PLAYING to accomodate you, than you are being ridiculous.
In short: Play 2 win. It's a game.
Secondly, not using inspirations shows a clear lack of skill. It shows that you're not able to ration how often you use them. It shows you don't know which ones to bring to counter different enemies / different situations. Inspirations act as YET ONE MORE THING you need to micro-manage. (The player not using inspirations has one less thing to worry about and thusly has an easier time operating his character.) To this end, it takes more skill to use inspirations than to not use them.
But let's get into why you thought that people should fight "with honor" and "without inspirations".
Something I find very often in newbies is something I call REGEN BIAS. This is a mindset many new players (or bad players) have by which they think that PVP should exist in a way that makes them as good as they are in PVE. This isn't unique to regen scrappers or even scrappers as a whole, but it is so ridiculous that most serious people just tend to respond to them with "LOL FITEKLUB GTFO". (In the same way you would tell a crazy man to "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME.")
It's called "regen bias" because most regen scrappers subscribe to this mentality. Regen scrappers don't need to use inspirations; so they wrongly assume their enemies don't need to either. Regen scrappers are durable enough to stand and fight "with honor"; so they wrongly assume their enemies are capable of this also.
What players suffering Regen Bias don't realise is that different archetypes survive by different methods. Scrappers and tanks survive by being innately durable. But blasters & other ranged damage characters must survive by being evasive. Stalkers have to survive by being stealthy. It all makes sense if you take the time to consider what the different characters have to do to kill & stay alive in PVP.
Stone Daemon I hope you don't take any of the hostility shown towards you on a personal level. It's not you the PVP regulars are raging at, it's more what you represent. You represent a large contingent of the PVP population which is not prepared to educate themselves to how PVP ACTUALLy works & will instead moan and whine and hope the developers change things. This is what lead to thee atrocious changes in Issue 13... something that ruined the game for a lot of the more serious PVPers among us. I suppose in this new light you can understand the hostility? It was people "like you" that caused this game's PVP to be changed in the first place.