Dark Tank/Scrapper end usage
By
BellaStrega,
Posted on: 2010-01-09 06:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
It's a slow Friday, so let's touch on this little bit here. |
Originally Posted by Finduilas
In fairness, the dissatisfaction with CoF has as much to do with its poor accuracy as its high endurance cost. For most ATs, it provides the same level of damage mitigation as Op Gloom, at a *much* higher cost in slots and endurance. I think it's arguable that it could use some buffing.
|
Instead of a toggle, turn it into a Clicky that debuffs the enemies -tohit and applies a mag 2 fear to all enemies in range. I would even toy around with adding some type of buff to the caster, but not entirely sure what would fit thematically and balance wise.
Quote:
... would it be fair to summarize this with "Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die?"
| People were complaining that Regen has to many clicks which can get you killed if your not on the ball constantly and which also causes constant redraw. They are complaing that Auto Powers are generally to weak to spend a power on. People complain that you have to take every single power in SR to get a solid build and they complain that Dark has too many toggles so they run out of endurance when they keep them on all the time. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
I apologize for not reading all the posts here but from the ones I did read I thought this might be a different way to look at things. Let's look at all the powers in DA:
1. Dark Embrace (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other resistance toggles (i.e. Charged Armor) at similar cost 2. Death Shroud (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other damage auras (i.e. Lightning Field) at similar cost 3. Murky Cloud (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other resistance toggles (i.e. Conductive Shield) at similar cost 4. Obsidian Shield (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other status protection toggles (i.e. Static Shield) at similar cost 5. Dark Regeneration (Click) - Very unique power at healing 30% per target hit at 33 endurance. I would compare it to Siphon Life which is heals 10% at a cost of 10 endurance but has a way higher damage component. Triple the heal for triple the cost plust the AoE component which can significantly multiply the heal and the damage seems OK to me. Because of its uniqueness balancing this power is probably mostly a matter of personal opinion but I wouldn't say it is off. 6. Cloak of Darkness (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other stealth/defense toggles (i.e. Energy Cloak) at similar cost 7. Cloak of Fear (Toggle) - Another unique power. Looking again at Dark Melee it is kind of an AoE-Toggle version of Touch of Fear. Spammin Touch of Fear unslotted should cost about 1 eps (if my math is right) so I think 0.52 eps for an AoE toggle version is pretty cheap. 8. Oppressive Gloom (Toggle) - And another unique. I would call it an AoE-Toggle version of Stun (Energy Melee). Spamming Stun I believe results in about 0.5 eps. Again 0.08 eps plus the minor health damage seem dirt cheap in comparison. 9. Soul Transfer (Click) - Similar in effect to other Self-Rez powers (i.e. Resurgence) at similar cost (none  ).So, if all individual powers are reasonable endurance wise why is the set viewed as too expensive? I think it all comes down to playsytle. People were complaining that Regen has to many clicks which can get you killed if your not on the ball constantly and which also causes constant redraw. They are complaing that Auto Powers are generally to weak to spend a power on. People complain that you have to take every single power in SR to get a solid build and they complain that Dark has too many toggles so they run out of endurance when they keep them on all the time. Dark Armor will offer a unique play experience and is actually really powerful when played well even without IOs. The set also can benefit a lot from IOs and actually accepts quite a range of different sets. And for the record I am frequently frustrated with my DA brute but when I get in the groove I think the set is just awesome. (The brute is 34 right now and I just yesterday managed to get my theft of essence proc which so far hasn't really changed my play experience.) |
I see what you're saying, but still disagree, respectively. Please note, the end usage may be close to the same in numbers in the sets that offer alot of toggles, BUT they also get Powersink, Consume, Quick Recov on 2 of the sets, or alot of auto powers. /DA is the only one that gets nothing to negate the endurance costs. That's what bugs me. AND if the "mitigation" is soooo great, why does it need a heal so powerful? Not that it's not cool, but if the defense was that good, i don't see the need in a heal that takes 33% of your endurance. (but the heal don't bug me as much as all the toggles)
well, if you don't want to re-roll to take DM for dark consumption you could always re-roll to take elec melee/da. or da/elec melee. depending whether you want a scrapper or tank...
Quote:
me? Yea, i could. I have an elec/sd. I prolly wouldn't go elec again. Prolly DM. I seen a DM/DA scrapper own once. I really thought about Kat/DA, but i have a Kat/Regen. I really hate making the same powersets, although i think Kat/DA would be awesomesauce.
|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
well, if you don't want to re-roll to take DM for dark consumption you could always re-roll to take elec melee/da. or da/elec melee. depending whether you want a scrapper or tank...
|
What about Dark Armor paired with Energy Melee? All you need to run is the resist toggles (maybe CoD) and oppressive gloom and proceed to stunning everything.
Quote:
Good comment, I just thought similar was good enough to make the point and I didn't want to open myself up to "but this and this also does this and this" arguments.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
You probably already know this, Dunkelzahn, but for the record the endurance cost for these three powers is actually lower than the usual cost of other defense or resistance toggles. (.208 EPS vs. .26 EPS)
|
Quote:
| In fairness, the dissatisfaction with CoF has as much to do with its poor accuracy as its high endurance cost. For most ATs, it provides the same level of damage mitigation as Op Gloom, at a *much* higher cost in slots and endurance. I think it's arguable that it could use some buffing. |
Quote:
You young whippersnapper DA players don't know how good you have it! 
|
Quote:
My point was more that dark armor offers a bag of tricks like no other set and each trick is in itself balanced. Giving it an end recovery power would mean you could use all the tricks all the time which I think is overpowered and my guess is that the devs at least initially had the same thought.
|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I see what you're saying, but still disagree, respectively. Please note, the end usage may be close to the same in numbers in the sets that offer alot of toggles, BUT they also get Powersink, Consume, Quick Recov on 2 of the sets, or alot of auto powers. /DA is the only one that gets nothing to negate the endurance costs. That's what bugs me. AND if the "mitigation" is soooo great, why does it need a heal so powerful? Not that it's not cool, but if the defense was that good, i don't see the need in a heal that takes 33% of your endurance. (but the heal don't bug me as much as all the toggles)
|
Quote:
True. Guess it's just not for me or i need to learn which powers are needed and don't just get them because they look really, really sweet. lol It just sux if i can't get them because i like getting most of the powers from sets. Im not a big pool power picker except for the basics.
|
Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
My point was more that dark armor offers a bag of tricks like no other set and each trick is in itself balanced. Giving it an end recovery power would mean you could use all the tricks all the time which I think is overpowered and my guess is that the devs at least initially had the same thought.
|
Quote:
I doubt this was their mindset--since the earliest iteration of /DA could not turn on all the armor toggles at once... It seems like they learned about a number of balancing elements as they went along.
|
Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
My point was more that dark armor offers a bag of tricks like no other set and each trick is in itself balanced. Giving it an end recovery power would mean you could use all the tricks all the time which I think is overpowered and my guess is that the devs at least initially had the same thought.
|
On my 50 spines/dark scrapper I run 11 toggles in combat : the 3 dark armors, tough, weave, acro, cj, CoD, CoF, and both damage auras. The only times I switch of some toggles is when I go into WW, or plan to stand in another crowded area.
My max endurance is 122.6, and I recover just under 4 end per second, excluding the 20% chance for end proc in stamina. Dark regen is available about every 17 seconds, for a 55% heal from 1 mob. I never run out of end.
Running +1/x8 with bosses in the RWZ repeatable missions, while an alt on my second account sits at the mission entrance to be PL'd, allows me to fight continiously while never using end inspirations. Most fights require between 1 and 3 dark regens, with the occational health or defense inspiration.
I really like cloak of fear with a set of 6 accurate to-hit debufs. Without it, I struggled to do +2 rikti bosses, but with it, +3 rikti in melee is no threat (the build has 33% melee defense).
Cloak of darkness is another unique tool that I like. I've lost track of the number of times that I defeated a dangerous mob right next to the rest of his spawn, without any of his friends responding until after he drops. Non-suppressing stealth is VERY cool.
I reached level 50 using a mix of basic IO's, and cheap frankenslotting. Getting all my sets took about 15 hours of farming for around 600 million influence.
The only down side to my build is that all slotting desitions had to be optimised for level 50. Excempting to 45 for the arc leading to Antimatter had me feeling very fragile. Just for interest's sake, while getting portal jockey, Maria's AV arc took me 2 hours 35 minutes to complete, and Tina's 2 hours 47 minute. I did both at -1/x1, no bosses, no AVs.
Spines/dark is definately my favourite combination, and after 39 months, this is still my only 50.
Quote:
Yeah, that the real rub with DA. I think that its not than any of the toggles are underperforming its that you need a whole lot of them going. Someone compared it to running an oil refinerary. Certainly the detoggle modifications make a huge difference.|
Originally Posted by scart_NA
On my...scrapper I run 11 toggles in combat .
|
As far as DA's heal underperforming its worth considering that power's strength falls as the strength of the opponets increase. This opposite to what you want. Against mobs of even level minions you wont need the heal anyway. Against mobs of +3bosses however Clouded's point becomes apparent.
Assuming no defences from the target, vrs.+3 you have 48% base chance to hit. Pretty good but if your facing anything with defence you may be glad you have access to a self rez.
Quote:
The only way the power falls off is if you can't keep your hit chance capped. This is not specifically related to foe level, but to anything that makes a foe harder to hit, which includes increased relative levels, but also foes using defense or toHit debuffs (or any combination of all three).|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
As far as DA's heal underperforming its worth considering that power's strength falls as the strength of the opponets increase. This opposite to what you want. Against mobs of even level minions you wont need the heal anyway. Against mobs of +3bosses however Clouded's point becomes apparent.
|
The strongest benefit you can have in the face of such effects is a toHit buff, such as Tactics or a Kismet unique. If you can also find toHit debuff resistance, this would be ideal, but that's not really available except in Focused Accuracy, which has an endurance cost worth noting when potentially trying to spam Dark Regen. (Of course it also comes with two of the best epic pool powers for mitigating endurance costs.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
3 * Touch of the nictus with accuracy components, 43% global accuracy and a kismet unique gets dark regen to 168% accuracy according to mids. That caps final to hit at 95% for most +3 mobs. The +to hit proc in cloak of fear can boost accuracy to 210%. The first dark regen of most fights is also boosted by build up to 210%.|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
Yeah, that the real rub with DA. I think that its not than any of the toggles are underperforming its that you need a whole lot of them going. Someone compared it to running an oil refinerary. Certainly the detoggle modifications make a huge difference.
As far as DA's heal underperforming its worth considering that power's strength falls as the strength of the opponets increase. This opposite to what you want. Against mobs of even level minions you wont need the heal anyway. Against mobs of +3bosses however Clouded's point becomes apparent. Assuming no defences from the target, vrs.+3 you have 48% base chance to hit. Pretty good but if your facing anything with defence you may be glad you have access to a self rez. |
The biggest limit on dark regen is RANGE. I've lost track of the number of times that I faceplanted from minions who were spread out at range, after I defeated the bosses who were fueling dark regen from melee range.
Quote:
May I suggest Focus |
Originally Posted by scart_NA
The biggest limit on dark regen is RANGE. I've lost track of the number of times that I faceplanted from minions who were spread out at range, after I defeated the bosses who were fueling dark regen from melee range.
|
Quote:
Taunt can help too.
|
Originally Posted by Dunkelzahn_NA
May I suggest Focus
|
No taunt on scrappers. Though I would opine that if you need a unique and to 3 slot a power with accuracy for it to hold its status as the superior power then you may really be making Clouded's point. To me Dark Armor builds always seems pressed for slots, I hadnt considered it though this may be a reason why.
I dont think his point isnt that the power's short-comings cant be mitigated but that the power needs added considerations when planning builds to be effective where a auto hit power would not. Its the combination of both high end cost and a "to hit check" (and yes the range) that are added in which make it a challenging power to use effectively.
As for DA's end use in general, running the oil refinery is a hassle. You lose the effectiveness (lol) of you self res because it takes 5 mins to re-toggle! I wouldnt be opposed to having one or more of the toggles converted to an inherent. Heck make the mez resist an inherent "the exposure to the dark forces has hardened you mind against sleep, fear, yada yada." Would still have the KB hole and would free up on spot on your tray. Maybe those spine/dark scrappers would rejoice at only running 10 toggles and DA get a minor end break.
I generally get my entire health bar back from hitting two guys. It's hard for me to believe that's an underpowered heal, taken over the entire career of the character.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
3 accuracy components, not 3 slots. 2 accuracy, 3 endurance, 1 recharge SO make Dark regen reliable against +2 mobs. All other heals available to scrappers also require 6 slots, while ending up returning less health that DR.|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
No taunt on scrappers. Though I would opine that if you need a unique and to 3 slot a power with accuracy for it to hold its status as the superior power then you may really be making Clouded's point. To me Dark Armor builds always seems pressed for slots, I hadnt considered it though this may be a reason why.
|
I have Dark regen slotted as follows
Touch of the nictus:accuracy/healing
Touch of the nictus:accuracy/endurance/recharge
Touch of the nictus:accuracy/endurance/heal
Numina's convalescense:heal/endurance/recharge
Doctored wounds:heal/endurance/recharge
Doctored wounds:endurance/recharge
I get the following totals:
Accuracy : 65.10%
EndDiscount : 95.77
Heal : 84.67
Recharge : 85.95
In my build that gives :
accuracy 168.6%
End cost 17.3
Recharge 15.3
Heal 55.4% per target
These are really nice numbers for a heal.
Quote:
Theft of Essence: Chance for +End is the single best IO you can put in Dark Regeneration. It checks to proc on every target in range, I have actually gained endurance using it before. I don't know what you would want to give up out of your set up to fit it in, but Theft of Essence is a REALLY good IO for that particular power, it almost seems like it was designed specifically for it (which it may have been, since there are so few enemy targeted heals in the game)
|
Originally Posted by scart_NA
3 accuracy components, not 3 slots. 2 accuracy, 3 endurance, 1 recharge SO make Dark regen reliable against +2 mobs. All other heals available to scrappers also require 6 slots, while ending up returning less health that DR.
I have Dark regen slotted as follows Touch of the nictus:accuracy/healing Touch of the nictus:accuracy/endurance/recharge Touch of the nictus:accuracy/endurance/heal Numina's convalescense:heal/endurance/recharge Doctored wounds:heal/endurance/recharge Doctored wounds:endurance/recharge I get the following totals: Accuracy : 65.10% EndDiscount : 95.77 Heal : 84.67 Recharge : 85.95 In my build that gives : accuracy 168.6% End cost 17.3 Recharge 15.3 Heal 55.4% per target These are really nice numbers for a heal. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
This can't be emphasized enough. This thread inspired me to roll a DB/DA scrapper, who is now L23. With the ToE proc, I find myself with a net gain of end rather often when I am slugging it out in a large group. Between that and the Performance Shifter proc in Stamina, my end problems basically disappeared at L20. The only part that stung was that I had to merit them to get them at the low level I wanted, but it was worth it.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Theft of Essence: Chance for +End is the single best IO you can put in Dark Regeneration. It checks to proc on every target in range, I have actually gained endurance using it before. I don't know what you would want to give up out of your set up to fit it in, but Theft of Essence is a REALLY good IO for that particular power, it almost seems like it was designed specifically for it (which it may have been, since there are so few enemy targeted heals in the game)
|
Quote:
I'd drop the ToE triple (not a real change to any of the numbers without it)|
Originally Posted by scart_NA
3 accuracy components, not 3 slots. 2 accuracy, 3 endurance, 1 recharge SO make Dark regen reliable against +2 mobs. All other heals available to scrappers also require 6 slots, while ending up returning less health that DR.
I have Dark regen slotted as follows Touch of the nictus:accuracy/healing Touch of the nictus:accuracy/endurance/recharge Touch of the nictus:accuracy/endurance/heal Numina's convalescense:heal/endurance/recharge Doctored wounds:heal/endurance/recharge Doctored wounds:endurance/recharge I get the following totals: Accuracy : 65.10% EndDiscount : 95.77 Heal : 84.67 Recharge : 85.95 In my build that gives : accuracy 168.6% End cost 17.3 Recharge 15.3 Heal 55.4% per target These are really nice numbers for a heal. |
in favor of the chance for end proc. That will give you:
Acc 56.55% enhancement, 117.4% chance to hit (not counting other Acc bonuses)
End 81.25% enhancement, 18.6 cost
Rech 65.10% enhancement, 18.2s recharge
Heal 60.35%% enhancement, 49.6% heal per target
20% chance for 10% end return per target
Not bad at all. 3s longer recharge, 1 more end per use (which is itself mitigated by the longer recharge) and similar accuracy values (without the acc bonuses. With them, it'll go up towards the above 168% value.) The heal is less, but that only matters against a single target. Any more than one mob hit and you'll pretty much be full up no matter what your heal enhancement is, lol. Having a good chance to get end back (statistically, a full man spawn will likely get you at least 10 end back, often more like 20, and with luck, 30 or more, nearly or completely negating the cost of using it). You'll also get 5% heal as a set bonus, which does count for DR. Without that bonus and this slotting, you'll only be getting 49.1% heal per target. Not major, but every little bit helps, right?
Just my opinion, feel free to disregard...
The only advice i have for you is patience... the end usage is a pain at times, but if you've taken the fitness pool when you hit 41 go with energy epic pool and take conserve power and physical perfection for sure. double slot conserve power with recharge rates, and slot physical perfection with 3 end mods. you hit the mid 40's your patience will pay off and you can run yer dark tank/scrap pretty much anyway you want (PvE). You'll still need to keep a few blues on hand though. One more thing... make sure you slot soul consumption, your end recharge power, with at least 1 attack rate and 2 end mods.
my 50 dark/dark tank rocks for PvE.
This thread alone inspired me to play a Dark Armor tanker, just to see how bad it is. Before I slotted common IOs, I could only run two toggles at a time, it seemed. With proper common IO slotting, I could basically run any three. My tanker is now level 22, and I run all the toggles, all the time, without problem.
I may have cheated, though. I bought the ToE proc and put it in Dark Regen.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
3. Murky Cloud (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other resistance toggles (i.e. Conductive Shield) at similar cost
4. Obsidian Shield (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other status protection toggles (i.e. Static Shield) at similar cost
The end cost was lowered a few years ago in response to persistant complaints about DA's end cost. Of course at that time Acrobatics was pretty much the only game in town for KB protection, and many DA players felt that having to pick up yet another toggle when most other melee sets had KB protection in their secondary was adding insult to injury. The arrival of KB protection IOs has substantially alleviated that particular problem.
To put the current situation in perspective, originally the DA shield toggles could not be run together. Then, IIRC, after that prohibition was removed, they were still much higher end cost than they are now, even more so than equivalent toggles, and most players took Acro as well.
You young whippersnapper DA players don't know how good you have it!
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012