Dark Tank/Scrapper end usage
By
BellaStrega,
Posted on: 2010-01-09 06:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Well, partly that was aimed at Clouded who felt ignored while you were getting the attention. He said DA pays more endurance for less survivability. And did you not agree with him?| I'm not talking about and don't care about mitigation, resistance and stuff. This post was about the end, not resist. |
If not, my apologies and just disregard that part as it doesn't pertain to you. If you did, then stop changing your stance.
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| I don't understand the comment on "use it when needed". If i'm in the middle of a mob or mobs, IT'S NEEDED. Just like the def toggles, if i'm not in battle, i don't turn them on. |
Sharker explained it and I'll explain it. Other sets just fall over dead which is a clear indication your difficulty is too high but DA is different. It can survive stuff that others cannot BUT you'll be drained of endurance because of it. That isn't to say DA is the end-all of sets, it just has other strengths and weaknesses.
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| The other sets don't have end management. They have end REFILLER. End management is something you have to do with /DA to be able to play it. |
Rep, please join in on the fun. You don't know me, so don't think because i pl my toons to 22 makes me anything less of a quality player. I get bored and hate lower level content. After 5 years, the sewers and hollows get boring.
On a side note, i was just running a BM farm on an IO'd toon of mine just now. A scrapper. The settings were +3x8 and not only could i stand in the middle of the mobs, i could 2 shot the whole dang mob just about. Now, does that make me a player that don't know diddly cause i pl'd him to 50? Or an uber player with awesome skills for taking on +3x8 mobs? I gotta hear this. Khrome Dome on Justice. Ask around about him.
I think i was running at 0 or -1 x4 on the /DA toon. I really can't remember. Some of the time i teamed with friends, some i tried to solo farm him at around his level. My IO'd toons easily play at +1x8.
Leo, not one time have i changed my stance. I am/ have been talking about the end. But that's my issue in your last post. Why give us a set with soo many toggles that you can't take them? You just said that you'll be drained of your end by running them. I know each set has their strengths. My only quarrel before you guys started name calling and acting like 12 year olds is that the set has too many toggles to even pick the powers from the set. I don't even mind the heal because it gives us all our health back.
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Actually, I never said it'd drain you by 'running them all', I said you'd drain yourself running everything *AND* spamming DR.| You just said that you'll be drained of your end by running them. I know each set has their strengths. My only quarrel before you guys started name calling and acting like 12 year olds is that the set has too many toggles to even pick the powers from the set. I don't even mind the heal because it gives us all our health back. |
Why have the set like that? Same reason you put tier 9s in the game. So when you have to, you can survive but at a cost.
Whatever. Why would someone spam DR? That dont even make sense given the fact it costs so much end anyway.
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If you are stating facts about the powers you should note DR suffers from a tohit check, and that's a huge negative for me. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
*checks the stats*
Correct me if I'm wrong... FA Healing Flames(base values): 25% heal, 40sec rech, -10% END, 20% res vs toxic DA Dark Regeneration(base values): 30% heal per target, 30sec rech, -33% END To me, numerically and statistically, DA has a stronger heal. The only time FA's heal is more powerful is when no foes are around. |
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And I've made my point to counter your point. You just choose to ignore it:
DA (base values): 30% res (smash, lethal, fire, cold), 20% res (energy, toxic), 40% res neg energy, 50% vs psi [250 pt of resistance] = .62 e/s FA (base values, including passives): 30% res (smash, lethal, energy, neg energy), 20% res cold, 90% res fire [230 pt of resistance] = .52 e/s Elec (base values, including passives): 35% res (smash, lethal, fire, cold, psi), 30% res neg energy, 82% res energy [287 pt of resistance] = .73 e/s For the resistance that DA gets, it doesn't pay an extraneous amount for and is in line with similar resistance sets. The difference is, DA gets the utility to pay more endurance to mez nearby foes AND fill HP every 30 seconds. The other 2 sets get endurance management (moreso with electric) and FA gets more damage. What are you not seeing here!? |
DA has 3 more; CoF, OG and CoD.
Lastly, I'm not too concerned about DA for Scrappers since the have another AT to soak aggro, and I believed I've already made this point once before.
DA uses more endurance than any other tanker/brute set and does not have a tool (think consume, powersink) to mitigate it's end usage.
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Er....I don't think it's repetition of content that's boring you.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I get bored and hate lower level content. After 5 years, the sewers and hollows get boring.
On a side note, i was just running a BM farm |
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Originally Posted by eryq2
i could 2 shot the whole dang mob just about. Now, does that make me a player that don't know diddly cause i pl'd him to 50? Or an uber player with awesome skills for taking on +3x8 mobs?
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| Khrome Dome on Justice. Ask around about him. |
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| I am/ have been talking about the end. |
OMG why does invul, more like vulnerability, lol, get three craptastic passives. 7.5% res vs. NRG and NEG and THATS ALL? WTF. that stops like 1/9 incoming dmg on ONLY TWO dmg types, IF I SLOT IT 2 the MAX. what the suck. and Resist Elements practically the same, only w Tox bfd. and 3.75 def? that stop about 1/8 incoming dmg IF SLOTTED UP. this set sux. it dont cost me no end but it barely increase my survivability. and don't get me started on that long recharge heal. wtf? the dark scrap next to me healz TO FULL every 20 secs and I got to wait 3 minutes for a half heal. LULZ. sry, DELETE /vuln, bye.
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Yeah, I'm butting into the argument here, but you seem to be totally missing the point of what Leo is saying:|
Originally Posted by Clouded
You'er purposely misrepresenting the facts. You note the resistances for FA, ELA and DA and act as if that's some revelation. However, you fail to recognize that FA and ELA have no other toggles for survivability.
DA has 3 more; CoF, OG and CoD. Lastly, I'm not too concerned about DA for Scrappers since the have another AT to soak aggro, and I believed I've already made this point once before. DA uses more endurance than any other tanker/brute set and does not have a tool (think consume, powersink) to mitigate it's end usage. |
For a comparable end cost, Dark can provide comparable protection to Fire and Elec. However, Dark can also increase it's protection beyond what those sets provide by spending more endurance.
And therin lies the crux of DA. It has better protection for a greater end cost. Or, to put it another way, Fire and Elec have plenty of end, but DA has plenty of health. If it had a tool for end management in addition to the extra protection, then it would essentially have that extra protection at no cost. Which, it should be pretty clear, would not be balanced.
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I understood Leo's point though I did not address it very well. I see what you two are saying and you bring up good points. |
Originally Posted by PhroX
Yeah, I'm butting into the argument here, but you seem to be totally missing the point of what Leo is saying:
For a comparable end cost, Dark can provide comparable protection to Fire and Elec. However, Dark can also increase it's protection beyond what those sets provide by spending more endurance. And therin lies the crux of DA. It has better protection for a greater end cost. Or, to put it another way, Fire and Elec have plenty of end, but DA has plenty of health. If it had a tool for end management in addition to the extra protection, then it would essentially have that extra protection at no cost. Which, it should be pretty clear, would not be balanced. |
At this point I'm going to concede defeat and move on. Thanks for the strong debate.
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Originally Posted by Reptlbrain
Er....I don't think it's repetition of content that's boring you.
Congratulations, you can press 1, aim and click the mouse, then press two and aim and click the mouse. I bet you even know that you should start the sequence from the middle of the spawn--rather than tele-attacking into it--to get the max bonus from AAO. And your girlfriend ... from Canada. Maybe this will help you understand: OMG why does invul, more like vulnerability, lol, get three craptastic passives. 7.5% res vs. NRG and NEG and THATS ALL? WTF. that stops like 1/9 incoming dmg on ONLY TWO dmg types, IF I SLOT IT 2 the MAX. what the suck. and Resist Elements practically the same, only w Tox bfd. and 3.75 def? that stop about 1/8 incoming dmg IF SLOTTED UP. this set sux. it dont cost me no end but it barely increase my survivability. and don't get me started on that long recharge heal. wtf? the dark scrap next to me healz TO FULL every 20 secs and I got to wait 3 minutes for a half heal. LULZ. sry, DELETE /vuln, bye. |
Like i said, you DON'T KNOW ME. It IS boring for me from 1-30. I'd rather farm my 3 accounts ALL DAY than to run with PuGs and be on teams with people like some that post on here. Let me guess, you play on the FREEDUMB server? Figures..
I start from wherever i wish to with the mobs and the end result is the same, THEY DIE. Can you solo at +3 or 4x8 with your /DA toon?
GF from Canada? First off, i'm not prejudice and would date a female from anywhere if i weren't married. Try not to judge people, less you be judged.
And as far as INV. I have one at 34 and i have no problems with him. If you do, you should learn to slot it and play it better. If i did, i guess i could put a bill into him and make him as awesome as /DA or any other AT because i have the funds to do it.
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at this point and even before this point eryq, you have not even bothered with the discussion but just made snarky replies to people who have tried to help you understand DA. if you feel the need to take on +whatever/x8 then have at it. just don't come here expecting to get a change made to a set that you are using in a way that was not meant for a toon to be used with only SO's/common IO's or no team to back him up.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Like i said, you DON'T KNOW ME. It IS boring for me from 1-30. I'd rather farm my 3 accounts ALL DAY than to run with PuGs and be on teams with people like some that post on here. Let me guess, you play on the FREEDUMB server? Figures..
I start from wherever i wish to with the mobs and the end result is the same, THEY DIE. Can you solo at +3 or 4x8 with your /DA toon? GF from Canada? First off, i'm not prejudice and would date a female from anywhere if i weren't married. Try not to judge people, less you be judged. And as far as INV. I have one at 34 and i have no problems with him. If you do, you should learn to slot it and play it better. If i did, i guess i could put a bill into him and make him as awesome as /DA or any other AT because i have the funds to do it. |
oh, and i'm sure that rep doesn't have a problem with invuln. he more likely than not was trying to show you how you sound/what your acting like.
Wow, you guys are still trying to convince this idjit? Sheesh, /ignore and be done with the thread. The people who may have similar concerns and are actually willing to read what everyone here has said have learned everything they need to know to understand /DA. eryq, at this point, is just trolling for responses and reasons to flip out on people. Everytime someone answers his issues, he either denies it or says that's not what he was talking about. Surprised he hasn't gone ahead and called anyone a poopy-head by now. Even Clouded was finally able to see what we were all trying to say, and conceded. eryq is just trolling along now. Don't feed the troll!
~JP
Just my opinion, feel free to disregard...
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Oooh, burn. Man, now I feel low.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Let me guess, you play on the FREEDUMB server?
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FWIW, most heroes on Justice, eckchually.
Not so subtle this time, as subtlety doesn't seem to be your metier:
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| It IS boring for me from 1-30. |
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| I start from wherever i wish to with the mobs and the end result is the same, THEY DIE. Can you solo at +3 or 4x8 with your /DA toon? |
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| GF from Canada? First off, i'm not prejudice and would date a female from anywhere if i weren't married. Try not to judge people, less you be judged. |
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| And as far as INV. I have one at 34 and i have no problems with him. If you do, you should learn to slot it and play it better. If i did, i guess i could put a bill into him and make him as awesome as /DA or any other AT because i have the funds to do it. |
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Why give us a set with soo many toggles that you can't take them?
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| the set has too many toggles to even pick the powers from the set. I don't even mind the heal because it gives us all our health back. |
Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom are both the same magnitude (except on Brutes). Running both is pointless, as enemies do not need to be both Feared and Stunned.
Death Shroud and Cloak of Fear work at odds. The damage from Death Shroud breaks the Fear from Cloak of Fear, leaving the latter a waste of endurance.
The toggles are meant to be chosen at the user's discretion, activated based on the scenario. Just as setting Reconstruction on auto would be a foolish strategy, so too would running all of the toggles in Dark Armor at the same time.
As to the points in the original post:
The toggles available to a Scrapper (assumed by the fact that you're claiming Spines as the primary) by 30 cost as follows:
Dark Embrace: .21 end/sec
Murky Cloud: .21 end/sec
Obsidian Shield: .21 end/sec
Cloak of Darkness: .26 end/sec
Death Shroud: .52 end/sec
Cloak of Fear: .52 end/sec
In the first three toggles, the second endurance reduction only brings the cost down by 0.06 end/sec, equating to a total 0.18 end/sec. One slot in Stamina adds at least that, and a good bit more should you have any form of +End, such as the Atlas Medallion. Putting any of those slots towards damage in your attacks would up your damage/end far more than that, reducing the number of attacks necessary to defeat a mob and thus alleviating your endurance issues far more than by slotting them into the toggles. The return is nowhere near enough to offset the cost.
We'll always have Paragon.
Thank you, Never. That was my problem. I was running all the toggles that i had. I was running the defense toggles thinking i needed some defense on the toon and was running the damage auras to try to kill them.
As far as the other comments. You guys are the ones that started acting like 12 year olds with name calling, and trying to belittle the people that had issues with /DA and didn't agree with you saying "its just you" without proving that /DA uses the same or less endurance than other sets (which still hasnt been done without saying "DONT RUN ALL THE TOGGLES THE SET GIVES YOU"). Please go back and reread the whole thread if need be and see who started taking the thread offtopic. I won't be expecting an apology though. So, please feel free to keep calling me "idjit" or idiot or whatever your little mind can think of. When you grow up, please come back.
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You obviously don't know how fear actually operates then, if you're assuming that DS completely negates fear effects. If you attack a feared target, it's not going to completely cancel the fear effect out and allow the target to attack with no inhibition. The Fear effect only allows itself to be "broken" roughly once every 5 seconds to allow a single attack through. Running DS and CoF will still contribute quite a bit to your survivability (decreasing damage by roughly 50-75% especially at the higher levels wherein enemies are attacking almost constantly), not to mention that CoF does still have the tohit debuff (however small it may be) to assist in deflecting those attacks that are allowed through.|
Originally Posted by NeverDark
Death Shroud and Cloak of Fear work at odds. The damage from Death Shroud breaks the Fear from Cloak of Fear, leaving the latter a waste of endurance.
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The only problem I can see with the OP is that he doesn't want to realize that it's alright for a set to operate using a different operational limiter than he is used to. DA wasn't designed to be like every other set and it doesn't need to be redesigned to make it fit some arbitrary form that the OP believes that all defense sets should fit within.
DA pays no more for its basic level of survivability than any other set out there. Attempting to argue that it doesn't when all available reliable information disproves your arguments will do nothing for your position. DA does have the ability to pay more endurance than other sets in order to increase its survivability to an even higher level, something that no other set is really capable of, which is where you are generating a problem (since you apparently believe that it should always be played at the limit).
The only problem that anyone that has actually looked at DA intelligently (and by "intelligently" I mean compared numbers and survivability beyond "I've played multiple sets and did worst on DA") will tell you that DA does fine, with the exception that CoF costs way more than it needs to thanks to the brutal nerfings it has received over the years. A reduction in endurance cost to make it a power that is actually a reasonable exchange for OG outside of heavily IO'd builds would be enough, honestly. Other than that, the endurance costs are fine. The only problem that exists otherwise is easily labeled pebkac.
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Yes.
| Can you solo at +3 or 4x8 with your /DA toon? |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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"I don't know the meaning of the word 'fear' !!! Or 'feast,' 'feat,' or 'February'! I'm going to have to get that page replaced in my dictionary, I guess."
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Originally Posted by Umbral
You obviously don't know how fear actually operates then
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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May i see it at work? I'm serious. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yes.
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The only problem I can see with the OP is that he doesn't want to realize that it's alright for a set to operate using a different operational limiter than he is used to. DA wasn't designed to be like every other set and it doesn't need to be redesigned to make it fit some arbitrary form that the OP believes that all defense sets should fit within.
Dude, really? I didn't say it should work like all the rest. I'm not used to playing 1 type of toon. What i was asking is why every power in /DA is a toggle and has no auto powers or a way to replenish it's endurance cost if you decide to take all the powers in the set?? Instead, you want to presume you know me or what i know or play and call me names and disregard any situation that myself and clouded presented. Other than saying " i don't have a problem with it".. blah blah...
Answer this, please. If all the other scrapper sets work different and have a different limiter, then why do most of the other scrapper defenses have either a 2nd stamina or a power to replenish the end usage? Inv and SR have more auto powers than toggles, so it doesn't matter much. /SD only has 3 i think whic are easily managable.
I'm glad that you know everyone in the game to think the "only people that know numbers says /DA is fine" Really, you think that? lol. I'll try to do some broadcasts and ask around on each server what people think of /DA and take screenies and see if that confirms what you think.
And by all means, please iggy me and be done here like Jay tells you to so that the next time i leave a post, i'll get reasonable answers or at least people that can stay on topic without name calling and leaving prejudice comments.
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Certainly, Death Shroud isn't going to completely negate the fear. But using the two at the same time reduces the potency of Cloak of Fear. As CoF isn't terribly potent as is (Oppressive Gloom has the same magnitude, will not be affected in any way by DS, and costs a minute fraction of the end), it doesn't need DS to cut any of its effectiveness.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
You obviously don't know how fear actually operates then, if you're assuming that DS completely negates fear effects. If you attack a feared target, it's not going to completely cancel the fear effect out and allow the target to attack with no inhibition. The Fear effect only allows itself to be "broken" roughly once every 5 seconds to allow a single attack through. Running DS and CoF will still contribute quite a bit to your survivability (decreasing damage by roughly 50-75% especially at the higher levels wherein enemies are attacking almost constantly), not to mention that CoF does still have the tohit debuff (however small it may be) to assist in deflecting those attacks that are allowed through.
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We'll always have Paragon.
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| May i see it at work? I'm serious. |
I'll do a demo-record when I have time for it.
Keep in mind my /DA toon is heavily IOed. There is no scrapper build in existence that can solo at +3 or 4/x8 without IOs.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I agree with that statement. I wasn't trying +3x8 on commons. I had it at 0x5 i think, when i was solo. Maybe i should've had it at -1. I'm not sure.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'll do a demo-record when I have time for it.
Keep in mind my /DA toon is heavily IOed. There is no scrapper build in existence that can solo at +3 or 4/x8 without IOs. |
I have a Dark/Stone Tank with only SO's. He is 42-ish. That combonation is notorious for Endurance problems and I've made it work. I get tons of compliments on my Tank and ability to hold aggro and protect a team from a lot of mobs.
I am using a lot of Endurance Reduction. Plus I have the stacked Disorients to help reduce incoming damage so I have to use Dark Regeneration less than some might. I also cannot really spam attacks for very long.
I have a lot of Tanks and I would say all of them have a hard time running too many armor toggles before stanima. But Dark/Stone is definately the worst Tank, I have had for Endurance usage.
Testimonially. I'm not sure, if anything needs to be done or not. Because I still really love this Tank.
Before I created my Elec/Stone Tank (about 2 weeks ago), I had very little experience with Stone Melee. After playing it solo and on teams I'm quickly realizing the set seems to use a fair amount of endurance. I should note that I picked up the first 3 Tier attacks so I can figure out what to keep later (so far I like them all).
There is some good news...you have the ability to grab Conserve Power and Physical Perfection which will help out your endurance woes if you so choose.
I apologize for not reading all the posts here but from the ones I did read I thought this might be a different way to look at things. Let's look at all the powers in DA:
1. Dark Embrace (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other resistance toggles (i.e. Charged Armor) at similar cost
2. Death Shroud (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other damage auras (i.e. Lightning Field) at similar cost
3. Murky Cloud (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other resistance toggles (i.e. Conductive Shield) at similar cost
4. Obsidian Shield (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other status protection toggles (i.e. Static Shield) at similar cost
5. Dark Regeneration (Click) - Very unique power at healing 30% per target hit at 33 endurance. I would compare it to Siphon Life which is heals 10% at a cost of 10 endurance but has a way higher damage component. Triple the heal for triple the cost plust the AoE component which can significantly multiply the heal and the damage seems OK to me. Because of its uniqueness balancing this power is probably mostly a matter of personal opinion but I wouldn't say it is off.
6. Cloak of Darkness (Toggle) - Similar in effect to other stealth/defense toggles (i.e. Energy Cloak) at similar cost
7. Cloak of Fear (Toggle) - Another unique power. Looking again at Dark Melee it is kind of an AoE-Toggle version of Touch of Fear. Spammin Touch of Fear unslotted should cost about 1 eps (if my math is right) so I think 0.52 eps for an AoE toggle version is pretty cheap.
8. Oppressive Gloom (Toggle) - And another unique. I would call it an AoE-Toggle version of Stun (Energy Melee). Spamming Stun I believe results in about 0.5 eps. Again 0.08 eps plus the minor health damage seem dirt cheap in comparison.
9. Soul Transfer (Click) - Similar in effect to other Self-Rez powers (i.e. Resurgence) at similar cost (none ).
So, if all individual powers are reasonable endurance wise why is the set viewed as too expensive? I think it all comes down to playsytle. People were complaining that Regen has to many clicks which can get you killed if your not on the ball constantly and which also causes constant redraw. They are complaing that Auto Powers are generally to weak to spend a power on. People complain that you have to take every single power in SR to get a solid build and they complain that Dark has too many toggles so they run out of endurance when they keep them on all the time. Dark Armor will offer a unique play experience and is actually really powerful when played well even without IOs. The set also can benefit a lot from IOs and actually accepts quite a range of different sets.
And for the record I am frequently frustrated with my DA brute but when I get in the groove I think the set is just awesome. (The brute is 34 right now and I just yesterday managed to get my theft of essence proc which so far hasn't really changed my play experience.)
i gotta agree with you on that both counts Rep. but don't forget the 3rd count of when he does play his lv 22 toon he is playing at +1/x8 with no io sets. hell even with io sets at that lv any toon has problems i'm sure.