Dark Tank/Scrapper end usage
By
BellaStrega,
Posted on: 2010-01-09 06:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I have a dark/fire tank at 35 and have no end issues running on almost pure SOs. For what it's worth, knowing how to manage end and toggles is a surefire way to take an "unplayable" armor and turn it into god mode.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
That's exactly why i deleted it. Thanks anyways though. As far as the rest, LMAO. It's funny to hear how to "correct" the issue but when i talk to actual people in the game, i get the same thoughts as to what i have. Alot of deleted /DA toons.
Nothing was ignored, the toon was already deleted before you posted. Please, speak of facts instead of trying to be jerk'ish. Btw, feel free to iggy me, too, since i don't agree with your last post. |
~WP
Just my opinion, feel free to disregard...
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... and yet I played it to 50 in issue 8. Weird.
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I don't disagree with you. DA is pretty unplayable without a ToE: +End. It's not the toggles that kill DA, it's Dark Regen being an end hog coupled with the low resistances of DA which means the DR crutch needs to be used often. Turn DR into something like Healing Flames and the set would be far more enjoyable, which also explains why DA plays like any other resistance set once u get ur hands on a ToE: +End. |
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@Boltcutter in game.
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I know right.. it's almost as if different people have different tolerances for annoyances.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
... and yet I played it to 50 in issue 8. Weird.
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... or some of 'em play on teams with Kinetics or Rads regularly. Or empaths.
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@Boltcutter in game.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
... or some of 'em play on teams with Kinetics or Rads regularly. Or empaths.
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...or prefer sets that don't require as much babysitting. Comparable armors offer same, if not better, mitigation without worrying about juggling toggles to maintain efficient endurance usage.
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Wish i could've with the scrapper. Just out of curiousity, do you attack as often on your tank as you would on a scrapper? I know i don't on my tanks, just wondering if that makes a difference on how long the endurance lasts.
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Originally Posted by W Peace
I have a dark/fire tank at 35 and have no end issues running on almost pure SOs. For what it's worth, knowing how to manage end and toggles is a surefire way to take an "unplayable" armor and turn it into god mode.
~WP |
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... I never had this problem. Sounds like ToE: +End is the crutch.
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
I don't disagree with you. DA is pretty unplayable without a ToE: +End.
It's not the toggles that kill DA, it's Dark Regen being an end hog coupled with the low resistances of DA which means the DR crutch needs to be used often. Turn DR into something like Healing Flames and the set would be far more enjoyable, which also explains why DA plays like any other resistance set once u get ur hands on a ToE: +End. |
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I played to 50 in issue 3, when /DA had serious end issues.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
... and yet I played it to 50 in issue 8. Weird.
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I also played to the 30s in CoV beta with a Fire/Dark brute, and didn't have serious end issues. In 8 brute teams, I also found myself the last one standing on occasion, and didn't die that frequently.
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DA doesn't require that much babysitting. It did from launch to early issue 3, with unstackable armor. Then, you'd get serious benefit from someone willing to keep status protection or bubbles on you. Now? It's a benefit to hang out with anyone who can buff you, but it's not a requirement. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
...or prefer sets that don't require as much babysitting. Comparable armors offer same, if not better, mitigation without worrying about juggling toggles to maintain efficient endurance usage.
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And seriously, toggle juggling is not necessary. You don't need to swap any of the four basic toggles on or off. The only toggle you should be watching is Death Shroud, because it's a waste of endurance to use it on one or two mobs.
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While I've never timed how often I attack on each character, it's highly likely that I attack more often on my tank than my scrappers. Gauntlet means less using [Taunt], which has a longish animation and doesn't do any damage (procs aside). More damage means mobs are dead faster, further helping my goal of keeping my team alive. Scrappers attack often too, but I tend to spend a little bit more time being selective of targets, so that I can use my higher damage values to take down threats faster, such as sappers or any mob that has strong mezz capabilities.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Wish i could've with the scrapper. Just out of curiousity, do you attack as often on your tank as you would on a scrapper? I know i don't on my tanks, just wondering if that makes a difference on how long the endurance lasts.
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Without digging deeply into each powerset and the various costs vs. recharges and damage per endurance, I'd imagine they are pretty well balanced across scrappers and tanks. Tankers do get "harder" hits (higher damage scale that's applied against lower base damage), so I could imagine them actually burning endurance faster than scrappers. Combined with the fact that they have to fight longer to deal the same amount of damage as scrappers, and they are more likely to come across endurance issues.
Playstyle makes all the difference. The set may need babysitting compared to other sets, but the things it can pull off are simply amazing. No other set can go from the verge of death (read: 1-2 hits away) to full HP with one power, and do that every 20-30s, providing endurance is maintained. Add in mezz abilities and decent resists, and you shouldn't have to be using that insanely priced massive heal as often as, say, fire armor users would have to use their heal.
One other thing: Slotting more than end redux into toggles is usually wasteful, but it's even more so on Dark Armor. DA has lower end costs for it's base toggles when compared to other sets, so extra end redux actually does less to help your end management than those slots on other sets would. Much better off putting those slots into attacks for an end redux (or two for AoEs). And Dark Regen should always be 3 End, 2 Acc, and 1 Heal if you have the slot.
~WP
Just my opinion, feel free to disregard...
Ok, let me see here.
Dark Armor- 7 toggles. - before tough, weave. =9 toggles. highest tic is .52x 2 powers
0 auto powers- no end.
Electric Armor- 4 toggles - before tough, weave = 6 toggles highest tic is .52 x1 power
2 Auto- no end.
Fire Aura- 3 toggles- before tough, weave =5 toggles highest tic is .52 x 1 power
1 auto- no end
Inv --- 3 toggles- before tough, weave = 5 toggles (all others highest tics are .26)
4 auto - no end
Regen-- 1 toggle- before tough, weave = 3 toggles
3 auto- no end
Shield- 3 toggles- before tough, weave = 5 toggles
2 auto - no end
Super Reflex- 3 toggles- beofre tough,weave = 5 toggles
4 auto - no end
Willpower- 4 toggles- before tough,weave = 6 toggles
3 auto- no end
The only other power that is even close is Willpower and it has 2 stamina powers to support it. Theres no doubt that /DA has way more end usage than any other power in the scrappers armors.
Now, there's the FACTS. Granted, you take the powers offered. Not all powers may be taken by different players. But personally, i like to be able to pick the powers from the set i choose to play.
I don't know anyone who runs all seven toggles. Four four defenses, one for pbaoe damage, and one for control. If you take OG, the cost is negligible, so you're really dealing with five toggles, one of which saves you endurance against large groups because of damage output. The four base toggles don't really cost more than any other set.
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Either way. Twice as many toggles and 0 autos still don't seem balanced to me no matter if 2 people here says it is fine as is. You're right, noone can run 7 toggles so why have that many? None of the other sets do and i wonder how they'd run if they did, huh?
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Originally Posted by eryq2
That's exactly why i deleted it. Thanks anyways though. As far as the rest, LMAO. It's funny to hear how to "correct" the issue but when i talk to actual people in the game, i get the same thoughts as to what i have. Alot of deleted /DA toons.
Nothing was ignored, the toon was already deleted before you posted. Please, speak of facts instead of trying to be jerk'ish. Btw, feel free to iggy me, too, since i don't agree with your last post. |
Wasn't being jerkish, was just calling it like I see it. People attempted to help you with your problem, and instead of trying any of the things suggested, you deleted the character. That is a problem with YOU, not the powerset. I really think you posted this because you wanted to complain about it, rather than because you were actually seeking help with it.
The ONLY power in the set that has a particularly high endurance cost is Dark Regeneration.
Look at the rest of the toggles in the set: Dark Embrace = .21/sec, Murky Cloud = .21/sec, Obsidian Shield = .21/sec, Cloak of Darkness = .26/sec.
Death Shroud has a .52/sec cost, which is not out of line for a damage aura. Cloak of Fear has a .52/sec cost as well, but I don't know too many people that even TAKE that piece of crap. Oppressive Gloom costs less than Combat Jumping to run.
Most resistance or defense sets have a base cost of .26 on all of their toggles, Shield Defense being an exception. Dark Armor has a lower cost on it's toggles specifically to offset the fact that it has more of them than other sets. Your problem isn't the toggles, it's Dark Regen.
So, if you take the 4 resist/defense toggles, Death Shroud, and Oppressive Gloom, as most people I have seen do, you shouldn't be having the horrible endurance problems that you seem to be having.
I'm not going to ignore you, but I'm not going to offer you advice anymore, since you never take advice that is offered.
Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go enjoy the Dark Armor that you can't seem to wrap your head around.
Claws
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
DA doesn't require that much babysitting. It did from launch to early issue 3, with unstackable armor. Then, you'd get serious benefit from someone willing to keep status protection or bubbles on you. Now? It's a benefit to hang out with anyone who can buff you, but it's not a requirement.
And seriously, toggle juggling is not necessary. You don't need to swap any of the four basic toggles on or off. The only toggle you should be watching is Death Shroud, because it's a waste of endurance to use it on one or two mobs. |
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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
I don't know anyone who runs all seven toggles. Four four defenses, one for pbaoe damage, and one for control. If you take OG, the cost is negligible, so you're really dealing with five toggles, one of which saves you endurance against large groups because of damage output. The four base toggles don't really cost more than any other set.
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So, that's 7 toggles.
Now what about KB protection? It's acrobatics or IOs. I either have to get another toggle, .26 end/s (IIRC), or invest in something that is deemed optional by the powers at be.
So, that's 8 toggles...plus Dark Regeneration.
Unless your brute, scrapper, tank has uber set bonuses (which brings us back to IOs being optional), or your primary/secondary has a endurance tool, then your brute, scrapper or tank will start to show some blue bar disabilities.
I'm not talking from inexperience here either. I've tried to make DA work many ways, and my most recent project was a Dark/Energy Tank. I decided to try a defensive root to help mitigate damage and lessen the use of Dark Regen. I took the 4 armor toggles, Death Shroud and OG. I also picked up Tough to make my tank a bit more...tough. I then added Weave and CJ to fill out a bit more defense. I spent quite a bit of inf on this tank, purchasing the numina/miracle/regen tissue uniques along with a +end proc for stamina and 2 KB IOs. I even slotted the 3 armor toggles with Impervium Armor for +endurance.
Even with 40% s/l defense and all those IOs, the Tank was still "meh." It was definitely a better tank but still lagged behind other sets that spent the same amount of time and inf/IOs on their builds.
Like I initially stated, the set has too many weaknesses and not enough pros to offset those cons. Most comparable sets do not suffer from all these weaknesses and are arguably better canidates. I like resistance based sets because I can manage the efficiency of my survivability better, but this set lags behind IMO, and could use a "once over" from Castle and his crew.
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It is fine as-is. Four toggles that are fairly cheap, one that is practically free, and one that saves you end over time, despite its cost. And one that has a high end cost for what it does, and what it does sucks.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Either way. Twice as many toggles and 0 autos still don't seem balanced to me no matter if 2 people here says it is fine as is. You're right, noone can run 7 toggles so why have that many? None of the other sets do and i wonder how they'd run if they did, huh?
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You know what, though? There was a time I ran six toggles - CoF instead of OG - tough, weave, acrobatics, combat jumping, and focused accuracy, pre-IOs, and I was able to manage.
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Clouded: It is true that your endurance will be low if you build like that. (I have a Dark/En tank myself.)
It is also true that you frequently hit an AOE and stun multiple bosses.
It is also true that you can stand next to an even-con Malta Sapper until your aura kills them.
Personally, I find in general that if I'm on a team, I almost never have endurance issues on any character. Enemies just die too fast.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Right, so the fact you are happy with the set makes all other claims otherwise inferior. Unfortunately, things do not get reviewed or changed from being complacent with the status quo. I am not statisfied with the current state of DA based on my experience with the set pre- and post- IOs. |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
It is fine as-is. Four toggles that are fairly cheap, one that is practically free, and one that saves you end over time, despite its cost. And one that has a high end cost for what it does, and what it does sucks.
You know what, though? There was a time I ran six toggles - CoF instead of OG - tough, weave, acrobatics, combat jumping, and focused accuracy, pre-IOs, and I was able to manage. |
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Clouded: It is true that your endurance will be low if you build like that. (I have a Dark/En tank myself.)
It is also true that you frequently hit an AOE and stun multiple bosses. It is also true that you can stand next to an even-con Malta Sapper until your aura kills them. Personally, I find in general that if I'm on a team, I almost never have endurance issues on any character. Enemies just die too fast. |
And I agree with you. On teams, everything die pretty quickly (in the higher levels) until you get to the big ole bag of HPs called AVs. This is another area where a DA tank can be seen as inferior. All those nifty mitigation tools, and that wonderful heal, are severally handicapped. Much moreso than...dare I say it...all other tanker/brute/scrapper armor sets.
It's not only the endurance woes, but also the general ineffectiveness of the set (IMO of course).
Claws, i did bring it up to complain about it. I wasn't seeking help from 2 people that are fine with it and thinks EVERYONE else is wrong. Like i said, i deleted it before you and Fulmens had the opportunity to tell me that I was wrong and didn't know how to build the toon. To say, "i NEVER take advice offered", you act like you tell me stuff everyday. LOL. I don't need your advice on anything. I can see for myself that the set has 2 times as many toggles and 0 auto powers to help mitigate end usage. I could care less about the regen power, it fills my health all the way. Maybe i'll rerun it and just take half the powers of the set to make it, "ok".
And what about toons that solo the majority of the time like myself. I don't like PuGs, so i solo alot or play with a few of the same people. I guess i should just say the set is awesome and it don't have any issues as long as i'm on a team, like Fulmens said. Every toon works fine like that though.
I have a personal friend i play with every week, and has over 50 level 50 toons, 60+ vet and several purpled out toons and has also deleted several dark toons and laughs at me every time i make a /DA set. He must not know anything either. I doubt that though, i've seen his toons at work.
CLOUDED, i like the way you think. 
Some very valid points, other than endurance issues.
Yeah, I've met several players who are elitist about certain powersets too, and many who still carry impressions of what those powersets are like from the game's first year.
I don't care how many level 50s anyone has, if they don't play DA, or they only play it long enough to get annoyed with it and quit, I don't care what they think, really.
And yeah, I don't know what you did, but it's possible, even easy, to play DA without massive end issues, so you did it wrong. DA's biggest actual problem is the lack of KB protection, and that's easily covered by easily obtainable IOs.
If you don't like the powerset, there's nothing wrong with that, but trying to blame the powerset because you couldn't play it when it's both quite playable and fairly effective is a bit silly.
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blah blah blah is all i get from you. Like i said, just because 2 people replied that don't have an end problem because you only choose 4 powers from the set is fine. EVERYONE else that chooses the powers from /DA has issues but that's ok with you too, because YOU dont.
If you look at the post i left that lists EVERY scrapper secondary, you can clearly see that /DA has 2x the toggles and 2 at .52 and one of those has a VERY low accuracy level to it, too. But all you can say is, don't select the powers from the set. Very practical if you want to select /DA but don't want to select any of the powers from the set. You may as well select a different secondary, honestly.
Also, if you read my posts, you'd see that i've made several diff /DA toons. Does that sound like i don't like the set? Nope. I really do and want to find a combo other than DM to play with it. I know DM has Dark Consumption, but i don't wanna play that combo. I guess that's silly too tho.
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See, this is why I put you on /ignore. I wrote a useful, constructive post in this thread. You paid no attention. There is, as far as I'm concerned, one crap power in Dark Armor. The Fear. If you take that out you have an end-cheap control, something that works fine if you treat it as a PBAOE attack and don't use it except where you are PBAOE attacking people, a very expensive (and very effective) heal and a bunch of fairly cheap toggles. |
Originally Posted by eryq2
blah blah blah is all i get from you. Like i said, just because 2 people replied that don't have an end problem because you only choose 4 powers from the set is fine. EVERYONE else that chooses the powers from /DA has issues but that's ok with you too, because YOU dont.
If you look at the post i left that lists EVERY scrapper secondary, you can clearly see that /DA has 2x the toggles and 2 at .52 and one of those has a VERY low accuracy level to it, too. But all you can say is, don't select the powers from the set. Very practical if you want to select /DA but don't want to select any of the powers from the set. You may as well select a different secondary, honestly. Also, if you read my posts, you'd see that i've made several diff /DA toons. Does that sound like i don't like the set? Nope. I really do and want to find a combo other than DM to play with it. I know DM has Dark Consumption, but i don't wanna play that combo. I guess that's silly too tho. |
I don't like Storm Summoning, I don't get it, but that doesn't mean I want to take it away from the people that DO like it.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Sorry, I guess we should all stop and chat while we play and let our End replenish or I'll lower my difficulty to -1 x 0 so I can be amongst your elitist group. By the way, the first sentence in your quote is pretty interesting since you seem to be projecting such an elitist attitude as well. |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Yeah, I've met several players who are elitist about certain powersets too, and many who still carry impressions of what those powersets are like from the game's first year.
I don't care how many level 50s anyone has, if they don't play DA, or they only play it long enough to get annoyed with it and quit, I don't care what they think, really. And yeah, I don't know what you did, but it's possible, even easy, to play DA without massive end issues, so you did it wrong. DA's biggest actual problem is the lack of KB protection, and that's easily covered by easily obtainable IOs. If you don't like the powerset, there's nothing wrong with that, but trying to blame the powerset because you couldn't play it when it's both quite playable and fairly effective is a bit silly. |
Perhaps you could do me the favor and explain how you can run 8 toggles (explain in my post above, which you ignored since it provided way too much sensible replies) and use Dark Regen without having end issues. Please remember IOs are not required in this game and telling others to rely on them means the set DOES have issues.
Well if we're going back to the pre-IO world, Clouded, you can use Hover instead of Acrobatics with no loss of firepower.
Personally I did it with teammates, and by slotting a lot of END reduction (yes, in my attacks too.) In return I got one of the hardest to kill, biggest-PBAOE sets out there.
... but, hey, if you only want something that's as tough as Invuln you can run only some of those toggles.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
If you can't figure out how to make Dark Armor work for you....don't play it.
Advice was given and largely ignored, at which point the problem is with the person ignoring said advice, not with the powerset.
Nothing was ignored, the toon was already deleted before you posted. Please, speak of facts instead of trying to be jerk'ish. Btw, feel free to iggy me, too, since i don't agree with your last post.