Dark Tank/Scrapper end usage
By
BellaStrega,
Posted on: 2010-01-09 06:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed this reply. I'm not sure what purpose this post serves. You produce an IO'd Dark/Energy tank running a CoT mission (0/x8) as evidence of what? |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I'm going to take Aggrovac, the 6 million inf man, out to try a 0/x8 radio mission against CoT, at level 50.
No, it's not "SO's only", but I did this build for 6 million inf back in I9, over a weekend, so surely it can't be THAT overpowered? EDIT 1: Huh. Can't do it. Lemme try Boltcutter- L50, SO only, BS/inv scrapper that I also haven't played for a year or two. EDIT 2: Nope! Died twice on the first spawn. Might have done better if I hadn't waited so long to hit Unstoppable. EDIT 3: Managed it with Niefelherse, an Ice/Axe tanker. Admittedly, that's an Ice/Axe with a Numina and Regen unique, a Kismet +Acc, 200 bonus HP, +25% recharge, and a few other minor things in there. And some of those fights went long enough for Hibernate to be needed, used, and recharge. EDIT 4: MAnaged it again with Orbital Bombardment, an IO'd out L44 Dark/En tank. It merely requires time. |
Dark is great for minion and some LT control (depending on your tanker secondary) but so-so for bosses and up. It's medicore at best against AVs. At least an Ice tank gets Hoarfrost to supplement having only one enemy in range of Energy Absorption. What's DA get...soul Transfer? Great.
rabblerabblerabble
Quote:
Well, if we're talking about relatively equivalent protection toggles, DA actually is cheaper. If you only have to run the 3 res toggles and the dmg aura (same as Elec Armor runs), DA runs around .78 e/s while Elec armor runs at .86 e/s. And the resists from those toggles are around about the same amount of resistance too.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
What I actually said is that the set has a cheap control toggle in it.
You either can't read or choose not to. Given the choice of "you're too stupid to understand what I said" or "you're lying about my position"... does it matter what I believe? |
The difference is DA has an overpowered heal that cost a ton of endurance and Elec has a moderate heal with endurance management. Their utility, of course, will be different (DA having more toggles to provide control while Elec gains more endurance management and rech bonus).
Endurance management isn't some 'side game' that DA is forced into, it's a balance measure and is just something DA must deal with. Similarly as Energy Aura has no endurance concerns and good defenses but requires specific tactics to deal with psi/toxic foes. Or Shields is an burst offensive Juggernaut but is less sturdy than other sets so requires buffs, inspiration use and special tactics to take advantage of.
OP, you just don't like the 'angle' DA is pointing. Nothing wrong with that but do understand that it's your personal taste, not a problem with the set.
The OP was saying, I believe, that he runs all of his characters at 0/x8.
So Fulmens was seeing how what he had did at 0/x8 with just SO's, to start.
The point was that the game isn't balanced at 0/x8 with just SO's.
At least, I believe that was the point.
Quote:
I didn't skim your post. You just took it from a biased point of view. Of course DA will cost more endurance when it has more toggles. Because FA only has 2 protection toggles, yeah it'll cost more. But then FA also has 'less' survivability just by virtue of having a weaker heal. Same with electric.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
This is where my main issue with DA lies...it pays more for the same or less survivability. I speak from tanks and brutes experience/perspective. Scrappers can get by with less survivability because they have tanks soaking up the aggro 8 times out of 10.
I find it interesting most people skim over my posts and go right for erqy (whatever). |
Next time, calculate the amount of resist those toggles provide vs the endurance cost of them. Do they offer equivalent resistance or does DA, for some reason, pay more endurance for them yet recieve less of a bonus?
Then, when you add in the mez toggles, compare those to the utility of Fiery Embrace/Burn and Power Sink/Lightning Reflexes. Which of those provide more survivability?
Quote:
No, it doesn't. Read Arcanaville's summary of Scrapper secondaries, and look at the conclusions for Dark Armor.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
This is where my main issue with DA lies...it pays more for the same or less survivability.
|
Dark Armor doesn't have a problem with survivability at all. If you feel it does, you're either not playing it to its strengths, or mistaking the fact that you have survived more than a lot of other powersets would have and kept going, and drained your blue bar by forging on. A lot of other powersets can pay for increased survival in different ways, such as the "godmode" clicks (which crash and take all your end with them), or the way SR really is best if you take all the powers in the set.
If I had a complaint with DA, it was the KB "hole". IOs have essentially closed that hole at a cost I can accept if I'm not nuts about. Survival isn't really a problem unless I'm trying to do something like solo an AV.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
FA and Electric are better Tanker Primaries than Dark Armor. I don't consider FA's heal weaker by any means. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I didn't skim your post. You just took it from a biased point of view. Of course DA will cost more endurance when it has more toggles. Because FA only has 2 protection toggles, yeah it'll cost more. But then FA also has 'less' survivability just by virtue of having a weaker heal. Same with electric.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Next time, calculate the amount of resist those toggles provide vs the endurance cost of them. Do they offer equivalent resistance or does DA, for some reason, pay more endurance for them yet recieve less of a bonus?
Then, when you add in the mez toggles, compare those to the utility of Fiery Embrace/Burn and Power Sink/Lightning Reflexes. Which of those provide more survivability? |
Quote:
This fact shows a considerable and fundamental lack of understanding of DA's strengths. Without you accepting that the above statement is factually in error, we'll never be able to convince you of the set's strength.
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I don't consider FA's heal weaker by any means.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I always find it silly when any disagreement with a set is met with, "you don't know how to play it." Well, you're wrong. I do know how to play to its strengths. I've been around long enough to know the ins/outs of any set I play for over 150 levels on 3 different ATs. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
No, it doesn't. Read Arcanaville's summary of Scrapper secondaries, and look at the conclusions for Dark Armor.
Dark Armor doesn't have a problem with survivability at all. If you feel it does, you're either not playing it to its strengths, or mistaking the fact that you have survived more than a lot of other powersets would have and kept going, and drained your blue bar by forging on. A lot of other powersets can pay for increased survival in different ways, such as the "godmode" clicks (which crash and take all your end with them), or the way SR really is best if you take all the powers in the set. |
Perhaps it's not me but you that cannot push the set hard even to find its flaws. Perhaps it's you that needs to up your difficulty or try taking on content meant for more than one person. See, kinda insulting right?
I'm going to leave this thread now since most people aren't debating anymore but slinging mud and losing the purpose of these forums.
I'll leave with my final thought...
I find DA's endurance usage is too high for the amount of survivability offered through the set. I've often wondered what the set would be like if Soul Tranfer replaced CoF and a watered down version of Eclipse was added which not only increased your resis but provided a nice +regen, +HP OR tohit debuff. Shoot, I'd even take a re-tooled CoF that provided a minor +regen and tohit debuff on the enemies (think Soul Drain animation).
Anyways, have a nice weekend.
Quote:
Tell me why it's factually in error because I HATE having a tohit check on a heal that is fundamental to your survivability. I hate spending 18-33 endurance on a heal that MIGHT hit and MIGHT provide 33-99% healing depending on the enemies in range. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This fact shows a considerable and fundamental lack of understanding of DA's strengths. Without you accepting that the above statement is factually in error, we'll never be able to convince you of the set's strength.
|
I PREFER a heal that is reliable and provides CONSISTENT mitigation no matter the circumstance.
PS - it's sad how much my rep has dropped even though I've done nothing but debate according to forum rules, unlike a handful of folks. rabblerabblerabble
Quote:
I'm sorry, but both experience and numerical analysis disagree with the assertion that FA's heal is "better" than DA's. When you state falsehoods there's no other conclusion than that you're wrong. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
I always find it silly when any disagreement with a set is met with, "you don't know how to play it." Well, you're wrong. I do know how to play to its strengths.
|
Quote:
| I've been around long enough to know the ins/outs of any set I play for over 150 levels on 3 different ATs. |
Quote:
| Perhaps it's not me but you that cannot push the set hard even to find its flaws. Perhaps it's you that needs to up your difficulty or try taking on content meant for more than one person. See, kinda insulting right? |
Quote:
| I'm going to leave this thread now since most people aren't debating anymore but slinging mud and losing the purpose of these forums. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Healing Flames is superior to Dark Regeneration for one reason; no tohit check. That's my opinion and that's what I prefer. You might think the tohit check is meaningless but when it misses in the heat of battle due to debuffs, etc...then it's a HUGE factor. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm sorry, but both experience and numerical analysis disagree with the assertion that FA's heal is "better" than DA's. When you state falsehoods there's no other conclusion than that you're wrong.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm sure that makes you all kinds of more qualified to make these (false) statements, since, you know, the same qualifications can apply to other posters here.
No, it's actually rather bewildering that you'd make such assumptions about what I (or any other poster here) is doing when they've said nothing about how they play their DA. You might want to go tooling around the Scrapper forum more than you apparently do now to determine what people do and don't do with their DA Scrappers. Given how incredibly reservedly I made my statements, I find this statement (in response to me in particular) amazingly childish of you. Telling you that you're statements are in factual error is not mud slinging. |
Quote:
*checks the stats*| I don't consider FA's heal weaker by any means |
Correct me if I'm wrong...
FA Healing Flames(base values): 25% heal, 40sec rech, -10% END, 20% res vs toxic
DA Dark Regeneration(base values): 30% heal per target, 30sec rech, -33% END
To me, numerically and statistically, DA has a stronger heal. The only time FA's heal is more powerful is when no foes are around.
Quote:
| That's my point. |
DA (base values):
30% res (smash, lethal, fire, cold), 20% res (energy, toxic), 40% res neg energy, 50% vs psi [250 pt of resistance] = .62 e/s
FA (base values, including passives):
30% res (smash, lethal, energy, neg energy), 20% res cold, 90% res fire [230 pt of resistance] = .52 e/s
Elec (base values, including passives):
35% res (smash, lethal, fire, cold, psi), 30% res neg energy, 82% res energy [287 pt of resistance] = .73 e/s
For the resistance that DA gets, it doesn't pay an extraneous amount for and is in line with similar resistance sets. The difference is, DA gets the utility to pay more endurance to mez nearby foes AND fill HP every 30 seconds. The other 2 sets get endurance management (moreso with electric) and FA gets more damage.
What are you not seeing here!?
Quote:
Got to disagree with this. I've got a level 50 DA/Fire tank that I got to 50 just fine before the Theft of Essence proc ever existed. Yes, Dark Regen eats a lot of endurance, but proper slotting can go a long ways to getting around that.
|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
I don't disagree with you. DA is pretty unplayable without a ToE: +End.
|
Quote:
When you make a statement about A being superior to B, it's very important that you make clear you're basing that on qualitative reasoning and not hard numbers.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Healing Flames is superior to Dark Regeneration for one reason; no tohit check. That's my opinion and that's what I prefer.
|
Quote:
| You might think the tohit check is meaningless but when it misses in the heat of battle due to debuffs, etc...then it's a HUGE factor. |
Quote:
| I find it childish of you and everyone that keeps attacking me and not my points. Rather than just disproving my evidence or claims you reduced yourself and start the flames. My mud slinging comment was not directed towards you but maybe you have a guilty conscience. |
If you want to say you prefer FA to DA, that's fine. That's not what you said - you said HF "was not weaker by any means". You also said that DA paid more endurance for less survivability. Both can be shown untrue quantitative statements over a significant range of non-trivial circumstances.
Again, my personal disagreement here is not with your opinions, but with what appear to be assertions of fact that just don't jive with either my own play experience or the good analytical work of folks like Arcanaville.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
It's funny to see numbers posted for end./sec... Now, please take into consideration that the other sets have a means to replenish their enurance usage. (without popping a blue)That's a major point here. You can't say it wouldn't benefit from it.
Yes, the heal uses alot of endurance but has the ability to miss. As EVERY power does. What Clouded is trying to say, i think, is that HF CAN'T miss. Even slotted "correctly" as you guys say, it STILL has the ability to miss. How often? Who knows? Who cares? But if you need it, you don't want to take the chance on it missing. Or at least, i wouldn't.
The point of this whole thread was to ask why /DA has so many toggles (selected AND used) compared to other scrapper secondaries with no way to replenish. Not who likes it. I don't care who likes it, i want to see numbers. Instead, there's alot of bickering and finger pointing. Name calling. Who can't do this and who can't do that. I've yet to see a build posted (using SO's, since people love to say the game is based on them still) that would show playability while conserving endurance while attacking. And by selecting the powers, and not just picking 3-4 powers from a set.
Anyone can say "you slotted wrong", but please prove it. 2 end red per toggle (no auto powers to choose) and 1-2 end red ( when some attacks are 15 end usage per attack i use 2), 1 acc, and 1 damage or rech per attack. At 30, you've only got so many slots per powers.
Now, i'd love to let you team with a fully IO'd toon of mine and/or a toon with commons and let you SEE how they perform if you doubt my ability to slot. I'll even move one of my 50's to YOUR server so i can see a /DA toon perform. I'd love to, actually. I still have my plant/storm on commons and have no issues with end i could show (running snow storm and hurricane)
Yes, Clouded they always come for me. I don't care who i call out on here for their posts. If i see something i disagree with, i call it out. I don't pay attention to non facts. All the posts about "it's you, not the set", is horse crap. Prove it is what i say. I've been on this game since 04, play 2-3 hours per weekday and up to 10 on sat and sun. I DO know how to play toons, i DO know how to build them. That's why i can call BS on those claims. I don't know everything, but i know more than " it's me not the set" claim. Flame on, i got my haterproof shirt on.
Quote:
Not to be rude but you're....*ahem*, not very smart....if you think every armor set needs a means to replenish endurance.| It's funny to see numbers posted for end./sec... Now, please take into consideration that the other sets have a means to replenish their enurance usage. (without popping a blue)That's a major point here. You can't say it wouldn't benefit from it. |
Endurance powers are a *bonus* not a requirement. Invulnerability doesn't have it. Shields doesn't have it. Stone Armor doesn't have it. Endurance is already too easy to get anyway...
As for anything else you said, there's no point responding. Because you don't give a crap. As long as you have your argument on paper. No amount of numbers or build posts will persuade you (and honestly, why the hell does anyone even *need* to persuade you? just go play something else!)
Quote:
They don't use the same amount of endurance either. Every power in INV is an AUTO/ NO ENDURANCE USED power. (cept 3 toggles) Um, /SD only has 3 toggles, too. Um, /STONE don't need any toggles after 32. That's why. If you look at what we have actually PROVED with the charts on the powers given per set.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not to be rude but you're....*ahem*, not very smart....if you think every armor set needs a means to replenish endurance.
Endurance powers are a *bonus* not a requirement. Invulnerability doesn't have it. Shields doesn't have it. Stone Armor doesn't have it. Endurance is already too easy to get anyway... As for anything else you said, there's no point responding. Because you don't give a crap. As long as you have your argument on paper. No amount of numbers or build posts will persuade you (and honestly, why the hell does anyone even *need* to persuade you? just go play something else!) |
I don't give a crap because all you can say is "its ok". But you can't prove it. All you can do is be a ***** to anyone that wants you to back up your statements, which you can't/haven't.
Now, off to play something else.
Quote:
o.O|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Every power in INV is an AUTO/ NO ENDURANCE USED power.(cept 3 toggles)
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eryq2
But you can't prove it.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
How you figure? He gave a couple examples that don't even figure in all the toggles that /DA has.
Quote:
I'm actually confused at what you think you proved. That, if you turn on more toggles, you burn more endurance? So a SR character running all its powers + maneuvers + combat jumping + tough + weave burns more endurance than a Regen running the same?| If you look at what we have actually PROVED with the charts on the powers given per set. |
Well, duh. Regen only has 1 toggle.
Quote:
| I don't give a crap because all you can say is "its ok". But you can't prove it. All you can do is be a ***** to anyone that wants you to back up your statements, which you can't/haven't. |
FA (tanker base values, including all toggles and passives and any powers that provide resistance)
[230 pt of resistance] = .52 e/s
(calculating the additional resistance of Healing Flames)
[256 pt of resistance] = .78 e/s
Elec (tanker base values, including all toggles and passives with +res excluding the tier 9)
[287 pt of resistance] = .73 e/s
DA (tanker base values, including all toggles with +res)
[250 pt of resistance] = .62 e/s
What does that prove?
-It proves DA gets similar resistance values as other resistance sets.
-It proves DA actually gets off cheaper, because those other sets' values include a free passive +res.
-It proves that DA isn't any more weaker in mitigating damage than those other sets.
-And it proves that DA has even *more* ways of helping it survive by spending more endurance (OG, CoF, CoD, DR) if you so choose. Elec would be forced to pop their tier 9.
Quote:
Because all those other extra toggles are DA's *bonus*. It can mitigate more damage by turning them on. Those other sets don't have the same luxury and can't mitigate any more damage no matter what they do. But that's okay, those other sets get a *different luxury* called 'ENDURANCE MANAGEMENT'...|
Originally Posted by eryq2
How you figure? He gave a couple examples that don't even figure in all the toggles that /DA has.
|
...are you starting to *get it* yet?
/SR only has 3 toggles. Rest are auto, which costs 0, zero, no endurance. So, running "all it's powers" really isnt alot since only 3 of them cost endurance.
/DA has 7, that DO cost endurance, like i said originally.
I'm not talking about and don't care about mitigation, resistance and stuff. This post was about the end, not resist. What you want the toon to do, just stand there hoping it don't get hit because if it attacks, it'll have no endurance to run the "mitigation" toggles? At some point, you have to attack the bad guys.
Is this the way to run a /DA toon? Run in with all toggles, "mitigate", turn off toggles, attack, turn on toggles to "mitigate", turn off toggles, attack. Because in my exp. with /DA, if i'm running the toggles AND attack, i run completely out of end. And that's with the build set to try to conserver endurance.
I don't understand the comment on "use it when needed". If i'm in the middle of a mob or mobs, IT'S NEEDED. Just like the def toggles, if i'm not in battle, i don't turn them on.
The other sets don't have end management. They have end REFILLER. End management is something you have to do with /DA to be able to play it.
Quote:
here eryq, i will post this again since you have missed it: if you are having end issues you should not be fighting at x8. that is not what the powers are balanced for with SO's and you know it. do not come to the forums complaining about a power set when you aren't running at what they were balanced for.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
/SR only has 3 toggles. Rest are auto, which costs 0, zero, no endurance. So, running "all it's powers" really isnt alot since only 3 of them cost endurance.
/DA has 7, that DO cost endurance, like i said originally. I'm not talking about and don't care about mitigation, resistance and stuff. This post was about the end, not resist. What you want the toon to do, just stand there hoping it don't get hit because if it attacks, it'll have no endurance to run the "mitigation" toggles? At some point, you have to attack the bad guys. Is this the way to run a /DA toon? Run in with all toggles, "mitigate", turn off toggles, attack, turn on toggles to "mitigate", turn off toggles, attack. Because in my exp. with /DA, if i'm running the toggles AND attack, i run completely out of end. And that's with the build set to try to conserver endurance. I don't understand the comment on "use it when needed". If i'm in the middle of a mob or mobs, IT'S NEEDED. Just like the def toggles, if i'm not in battle, i don't turn them on. The other sets don't have end management. They have end REFILLER. End management is something you have to do with /DA to be able to play it. |
now enough about this. turn down your diff to something that is more managable to your end woes until you start getting accolades or io'sets.
Quote:
I believe you can file this under not getting the idea of balance.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I'm not talking about and don't care about mitigation, resistance and stuff. This post was about the end, not resist.
|
Or maybe this is the problem...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I PL all my toons to level 22 and grab level 25 commons. I then play the toons, pl the toons and whatever til i hit 50
|
I find it interesting most people skim over my posts and go right for erqy (whatever).