Dark Tank/Scrapper end usage
By
BellaStrega,
Posted on: 2010-01-09 06:35 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Fulmens, you like to reply alot to an iggy'd person. But anywho, I'm NOT trying to take it away from people who like it. Like you ASSUME. I was simply asking if everyone thought it was balanced with all the other scrapper sets. Other than you and Kali, people have replied in here, and more people talk about it in game. Everyone loves the set, myself included, but everyone i've spoken to hates the endurance issues. Unless we do like Kali suggests and only select 4 powers from the set. My reply to that is, but why should we only be able to take 4 powers from a set to make t work? Please start sending broadcasts in your server or in a chat channel you use and see the responses.
Also, this post was centered around to not HAVING to use IO's since everyone loves to point out how they're NOT NEEDED, when people start complaining about the prices of everything continuing to go up. So, Clouded, was "going back to pre-IO world" as you claimed. We were starting from there in my original post in case you didn't read it. And what scrapper uses hover? That just sounds dumb.
You also said in your last post that you slotted everything for end red. Well, when i said that's how i tried to do mine (even in my attacks too) you and Kali said i slotted it wrong and messed it up. Hmm, can we spell CONTRADICTION? Like i said, i had 2 end red in each toggle and 1 per power and still couldn't cycle thru my attack chain. I also had stamina 3 slotted. I was using level 25 commons which offer 32%.
Please feel free to reply to me again, since i'm iggy'd and all. Personally, i think you love me. 
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It actually is. Comically enough, with IOs, it's actually one of the strongest powersets for a reason I'll let you know later on down.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I was simply asking if everyone thought it was balanced with all the other scrapper sets.
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| Other than you and Kali, people have replied in here, and more people talk about it in game. Everyone loves the set, myself included, but everyone i've spoken to hates the endurance issues. |
You can't expect to play DA in the same way you'd play an SR or Invuln. It's a completely different beast that requires different tactics. Rather than trying to figure out how to kill the target faster, you've got to figure out how to kill the target more efficiently.
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| Unless we do like Kali suggests and only select 4 powers from the set. |
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| My reply to that is, but why should we only be able to take 4 powers from a set to make t work? |
One of the interesting things about DA is that, if you slot it with IOs to such an extent that you're actually capable of eliminating the endurance issues (which isn't hard), you're actually going to be stupidly hard to kill, especially if you add some defense to directly bolster your survivability. The Theft of Essense proc can actually make Dark Regen functionally free and +end and +recov set bonuses (not to mention Physical Perfection and the Perf Shifter procs) are rather prolific. You just have to aim for something different than most people attempt to do and have to play the set itself in a manner that most people aren't used to.
With DA, it's a game of resource management, not a race because, unlike everyone else, you (should) know you can survive it as long as you spend your blue intelligently.
ok, i'll reply to you and clouded. you do NOT need every toggle running at once. you do NOT need to take the fear. you do not need to be attacking everything all the time, scrappers differ here sometimes. you do not need to be running around grabbing agro on a tank by hitting things, all you have to do is use taunt and switch targets to get maximum agro.
i have both a fire/da scrap and a db/da scrap. the fire/da is at lv 29 and has a mix of so's and common io's that dropped and has not 1 problem with end unless i'm trying to bite off more then i can chew. the db/da scrap is 50 and has a minimal expense io build, so i don't have very good bonuses, with no accolades other then atlas medalion and he has no problem with end even with having 3 of the combos from db which is like 7 oor 8 of the powers.
was that a good enough answer or is it falling on deaf ears still?
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It wasn't a contradiction. You said you didn't slot enough accuracy because you slotted endurance redux instead. That is an example of 'slotting wrong'.| You also said in your last post that you slotted everything for end red. Well, when i said that's how i tried to do mine (even in my attacks too) you and Kali said i slotted it wrong and messed it up. Hmm, can we spell CONTRADICTION? |
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| Everyone loves the set, myself included, but everyone i've spoken to hates the endurance issues. Unless we do like Kali suggests and only select 4 powers from the set. My reply to that is, but why should we only be able to take 4 powers from a set to make t work? Please start sending broadcasts in your server or in a chat channel you use and see the responses. |
I don't think anyone said you could only pick 4 of the powers from the set. No one even said only run 4 powers of the set. But if you *do* run more powers in the set (+pools), expect a cost. If you want to work around that cost or build the character to plow right over the cost is up to you. It's like the old Focused Accuracy toggle or the old Instant Healing Toggle. I doubt they were ever meant to be ran all the time because of the cost but it was still possible. The difference between those and DA is, it doesn't require a stupid-expensive min/max build to do it and it isn't unbalanced. It just takes thought on your part, really.
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I wouldn't say all that. I took both of them on my Spines/DA stalker and it's great utility all around. He can either go around fearing everything with AS>demoralize on top of CoF and Presence Pool. And using IOs, the durations of his fear powers are longer than normal. This is usually for solo or small teams.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, I leveled up my DA tank perfectly fine and I took every power except for CoF and ST. If you're doubling up on mez auras, you're doing yourself a disservice and most people find self-rezzes optional or pointless on virtually any build.
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On large teams, everything drops too fast so he toggles on OG every now and then and scraps. He inevitably dies but with soul transfer, it's not a big deal if he can't get off DR fast enough. Oh, and he doesn't have fitness pool either.
To add some substance to this debate, I've brought some figures courtesy of Mid's.
I chose 3 sets that all have a "KB hole" and would use acro to plug that hole. I also used Level 50 IOs and have included Physical Perfection. Stamina is slotted with 3 lvl 50 IOs and PP is slotted with 2.
1st up, Fire Armor.
- 2 Shields and Combat Jumping; 1 level 50 end rdx each.
- Blazing Aura, Tough and Acro; 2 lvl 50 end rdx
Keep in mind that Fire Armor has access to Consume as well.
2nd up, Electric Armor.
- 3 Shields and Combat Jumping; 1 level 50 end rdx each.
- Lightning Field, Tough and Acro; 2 lvl 50 end rdx
Keep in mind that ELA has one the best endurance tools in the game; Powersink.
3rd up, Dark Armor w/out CoF and CoD.
- 3 Shields, Opp Gloom and Combat Jumping; 1 level 50 end rdx each.
- Death Shroud, Tough and Acro; 2 lvl 50 end rdx
DA has NO endurance tool.
Lastly, DA with CoF and CoD.
- 3 Shields, Opp Gloom, CoD and Combat Jumping; 1 level 50 end rdx each.
- Death Shroud, CoF, Tough and Acro; 2 lvl 50 end rdx
Dark Armor uses more endurance and has no way to replenish that endurane unlike sets like FA and ELA that use similar power picks.
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actually, every set has a way to replenish the end. it is called a blue inspiration. and honestly, if you are going to run offensive toggles, there is no need for tough as nothign should be hitting you which brings your end consumption down to(using SO's) 1.47/sec. and with io's is down to 1.34 as combat jumping does not need an io because all you are dropping the end cost by is .02. and with stamina and PP you are recovering at 2.88/sec. your end drian is less than half of your recovery which means you should be fine.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
To add some substance to this debate, I've brought some figures courtesy of Mid's.
I chose 3 sets that all have a "KB hole" and would use acro to plug that hole. I also used Level 50 IOs and have included Physical Perfection. Stamina is slotted with 3 lvl 50 IOs and PP is slotted with 2. 1st up, Fire Armor.
Keep in mind that Fire Armor has access to Consume as well. 2nd up, Electric Armor.
Keep in mind that ELA has one the best endurance tools in the game; Powersink. 3rd up, Dark Armor w/out CoF and CoD.
DA has NO endurance tool. Lastly, DA with CoF and CoD.
Dark Armor uses more endurance and has no way to replenish that endurane unlike sets like FA and ELA that use similar power picks. |
lrn2bildkthanks.
I really like Dark Armor. By running every power, you can definitely use up a mess of endurance, but it gives back quite a bit in return, I think. I've got a 30ish dark/dark tank, a 38ish dark/dark scrapper, and a DB/DA scrapper around 19. But I also have couple others that fight exclusively from hover, which the OP thinks is "dumb", so anything I say should be regarded as highly suspect.
Something to keep in mind, I think, is that it's a control-oriented set. How I select powers from it depends on which character I am using. Paired with Dark Melee, I'll want both fear powers. With any other powerset, I'll probably skip Cloak of Fear or put it off until the late 40s, because Oppressive Gloom seems to work just as well for fewer slots and less endurance. So it's not just "don't take all the powers". If you're not stacking fear effects (or just wanting it for concept), I really don't think CoF is worth the investment. Recommendation #1: Skip Cloak of Fear with Dual Blades.
But still, whichever (or both) you take, minions near you are pretty well nerfed. Recommendation #2: Don't bother with the Fighting pool. You've got the best heal in the game (boo to turning it into Healing Flames), albeit expensive, and good resists, plus the mitigation of one or both of the control toggles.
Recommendation #3: Skip the end reducers in the shields. Put them where they'll do the most good. Sure, shields use up end all the time, but it's just not as much over time as the attacks and particularly Dark Regen. Slot the shields for resist, the attacks for acc/damage/endurance, and the whole thing should turn out to be more manageable.
In the end, Dark Armor is one of the sets that can get great benefit from IOs (end/recharge in Dark Regen from heal sets, etc, the +end proc, etc), but I don't think it's unplayable with SOs. I wouldn't argue that it doesn't have the power to use more endurance than other sets, but to me it's a more powerful and flexible tool than some other sets, and is worth
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It's amazing how that simple post of mine flew right over your head. Di dyou even read the thread or did you just jump on my post because you're bored?|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
actually, every set has a way to replenish the end. it is called a blue inspiration. and honestly, if you are going to run offensive toggles,
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You're supporting DA's end usage, which is greater than any other tanker primary and has no endurance tool to assist it's usage, by telling me I have to use Blue Inspirations and IOs.
Is that about right?
Then you have proven my point, thank you.
And this little gem:
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
there is no need for tough as nothign should be hitting you which brings your end consumption down to(using SO's) 1.47/sec. and with io's is down to 1.34 as combat jumping does not need an io because all you are dropping the end cost by is .02. and with stamina and PP you are recovering at 2.88/sec. your end drian is less than half of your recovery which means you should be fine.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
lrn2bildkthanks.
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You make a good point, and I agree to an extent. Lastly, I don't think the set is unplayable, but I feel it's end usage is too much for what the set provides. I also feel a couple powers need revisions or out right changes (yes, yes, cottage rule rabblerabblrabble).
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Originally Posted by Gorgar
In the end, Dark Armor is one of the sets that can get great benefit from IOs (end/recharge in Dark Regen from heal sets, etc, the +end proc, etc), but I don't think it's unplayable with SOs. I wouldn't argue that it doesn't have the power to use more endurance than other sets, but to me it's a more powerful and flexible tool than some other sets, and is worth
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First off, Leo, please read the posts before replying with false claims. Claws on the first page said only 3 toggles were needed and the rest were optional. Sharker said you only need 4 toggles on the first page also. Fulmens post was a contradiction. Again, read the posts. He told me i slotted wrong because i slotted for end red. Then said in his build that was so good, that he slotted for major end red. Hmmm.
Secondly, Sharker wasnt to leave a comment saying lrn2bildthnks. Well, your majesty, popping a blue doesn't make an awesome build. Then he says nothing will hit you if you use offensive toggles??? DO YOU EVEN PLAY THIS GAME?
Umbral, i agree with you. With IO's i can make it uber like my other toons. But at level 30, running radios in talos with some friends, i couldn't play this toon effectively. Constantly popping blues or resting. But i was attacking, something scrappers do. I may have had too many toggles running but, hey, they were in my powerset to choose from.
I PL all my toons to level 22 and grab level 25 commons. I then play the toons, pl the toons and whatever til i hit 50, then i IO every build i have and my wife has. It's without doubt i can make it work with IO's, but as far as we are told they are not not needed to play.
It don't matter that Cloud and I showed multiple charts on how /DA uses more end than any other scrapper secondary. Show some numbers and/or builds to offset what we are saying. Please. I'd love to see some builds that work with SO's, Commons. I will PL mine and 1 for you to use and see if it works.
eryq, seriously, you are the one that needs to calm down. and yes i have played this game now for over 2 1/2 yrs. the offensive toggles from dark are a fear and disorient and a light damage. the fear and disorient are enough to not need tough. forbin did not contradict himself. you said that you slotted for only end(or at least thats how your post looked) and both he and one other told you you slotted wrong which is correct. without an acc you will use more end because you won't be hitting anything. and you have more time on this game then i do...
as for clouded, did tyou even read and comprehend what i said or just stop at points that make no sense? i said nothing about io sets. i used the same example you did with lv 50 io's according to your post.
you both need to sit back away from this thread and take in what you are being told and use it. learn how to play DA before making any suggestions to make changes.
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I don't think you quite understand exactly what I was trying to get across though: DA isn't balanced in the same way as every other defensive set out there. It's balanced against endurance consumption rather than against incoming damage survivability. If you're going to play it, you're not going to make much headway expecting it to play in the same way as all of the other sets you've played. The secret to surviving on DA isn't killing stuff quickly; the secret is to manage your endurance in such as way as you won't lose all of your endurance being completely unkillable.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Umbral, i agree with you. With IO's i can make it uber like my other toons. But at level 30, running radios in talos with some friends, i couldn't play this toon effectively. Constantly popping blues or resting. But i was attacking, something scrappers do. I may have had too many toggles running but, hey, they were in my powerset to choose from.
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Here's the thing: You just don't *GET* it. You don't *UNDERSTAND* the set. You look at it from a "It cost more endurance than everyone else! Waaaah!" point of view. But you fail to understand an important point.| It don't matter that Cloud and I showed multiple charts on how /DA uses more end than any other scrapper secondary. Show some numbers and/or builds to offset what we are saying. Please. I'd love to see some builds that work with SO's, Commons. I will PL mine and 1 for you to use and see if it works. |
Endurance is everywhere. It's in IOs/IO bonuses, it's in passive temp powers, it's in accolades, it's in pools, it's in team buff powers and it's in inspirations.
Using SOs, DA costs less than the other sets when running equivalent protection. It doesn't have an endurance replenish power but it has the most powerful heal of all armor sets. And non of the other sets have the level of control that DA has. The object of the set is you can pay more endurance for more survivability. Those other sets? They can't pay more endurance to mitigate foes or bolster their heal to max because they don't *have* anything more to run. They hit a hard ceiling that limits their sets. DA has a ceiling too but it's softer because their ceiling is based on an easily renewable resource.
There aren't any 'mez all minion' inspirations, temps or accolades. There aren't reliable 'stack mez to lock down boss' IOs or bonuses that are as effective as DA's. And the only 'mez lots of stuff' pool powers are an AoE sleep and a PBAoE fear (which stacks better with DA anyway).
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Thanks for the replies. I need to clarify a couple things. I can/do know how to slot toons, as i have many, many toons i play just fine and never use/need blues like i have with /dark armors. You're welcome to team with me any time if you doubt me. I've prolly PL'd half of you on Justice, so you should know.
1) I was 30, when i deleted. I had 1 acc in each attack and 2 end red and 1 damage in each attack and 2 end red per toggle. Still missed alot on mobs my level to +1 and would run low on end thru 1 attack chain. 2) Like someone mentioned earlier, i should've just pop the toggles as needed. I was running a few at one time. I love the look of dark, so i tried to use each toggle. Like i said, if using the powers hinder the performance, i think that sucks because no other build i've ever played done this. (after stamina) Now on a side note, i have an elec/sd IO'd out the rear with all the recov procs, 4 sets of purps and 4 7.5% rechs, and so forth and so on. I run 6 toggles with him and never touch a blue. Now, where's the argument on not "needing" IO's? 3) I disagree Leo, big time. ALL OTHER powers aren't the same. Many have way lower end ticks per power and nowhere near as many toggles running. Take INV for example. It has what, 3? Before pools. No end issue there, even if i did screw up the build, huh.. 4) And, Fulmens, i really don't care if you put me on iggy. It doesn't make my day one way or the other. But thanks for pointing that out. Maybe someone else will follow suit. Please, feel free to iggy me for not agreeing with you. Having ones own opinion is rare these days, i know. Esp, in the market forums where "its all me" or "how much can i make"... Have a good life, sir. |
Sharker, if you read the posts, you will see what's said. If you see #1, it clearly says i had 1 acc in each attack. Most all my toons have 1-2 acc depending on what they do. For example, in holds, i use 2 to make sure i lock them down. In scrappers, i normally run 1 depending on what it is/does. BUT, with all the TOGGLES that /DA has plus the HEAL, i used end red's in each of the attacks as well as the toggles to try to keep my attack chain fast without running out of endurance, like i do on other toons and it works fine.
Now, i'll pull Fulmens contradiction that you missed as well since you a)forgot, or b) didn't read.
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Looks like an end cheap control set here, right? And cheap toggles.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
See, this is why I put you on /ignore. I wrote a useful, constructive post in this thread. You paid no attention. There is, as far as I'm concerned, one crap power in Dark Armor. The Fear. If you take that out you have an end-cheap control, something that works fine if you treat it as a PBAOE attack and don't use it except where you are PBAOE attacking people, a very expensive (and very effective) heal and a bunch of fairly cheap toggles.
I don't like Storm Summoning, I don't get it, but that doesn't mean I want to take it away from the people that DO like it. |
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And here, he had to use teammates and /kins, AND ALOT OF END REDUCTION AND IN ATTACKS TOO. Weird, why need all that for a cheap toggle set?
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Well if we're going back to the pre-IO world, Clouded, you can use Hover instead of Acrobatics with no loss of firepower.
Personally I did it with teammates, and by slotting a lot of END reduction (yes, in my attacks too.) In return I got one of the hardest to kill, biggest-PBAOE sets out there. ... but, hey, if you only want something that's as tough as Invuln you can run only some of those toggles. |
First off, don't multi-post. It makes you look like more on an idiot than you're already making yourself out to be.
Secondly, you're once again completely misreading everything that everyone is saying. We're not saying that it's easy on the blue bar. That's actually completely against the design of the set. It's not a "cheap toggle set". It's DA, as set specifically designed to around your endurance being the primary limiter to performance rather than time. You don't get to apply the same tactics and assumptions you've learned from using other sets to DA because it's not the same. You might as well complain that */Regen pisses you off because you have to click more than one thing to survive because every other set out there only has a single important click power for survival.
Not every set is the same, and, this might seem strange to you, that's a good thing. DA is incredibly powerful if you know how to use it, and by "know how to use it" I mean "know how to manage your endurance such that you're capable of lasting longer than 1 Dark Regen without reaching for endurance help". If you're having problems with managing your endurance with DA, the problem is not with the set. It's with you not liking a set that uses a difference performance limiter than you are used to, and you not being able to deal with a set that forces you to actually manage your endurance in order to achieve the awesome levels of performance the set is capable of.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
First off, don't multi-post. It makes you look like more on an idiot than you're already making yourself out to be.
Secondly, you're once again completely misreading everything that everyone is saying. We're not saying that it's easy on the blue bar. That's actually completely against the design of the set. It's not a "cheap toggle set". It's DA, as set specifically designed to around your endurance being the primary limiter to performance rather than time. You don't get to apply the same tactics and assumptions you've learned from using other sets to DA because it's not the same. You might as well complain that */Regen pisses you off because you have to click more than one thing to survive because every other set out there only has a single important click power for survival. Not every set is the same, and, this might seem strange to you, that's a good thing. DA is incredibly powerful if you know how to use it, and by "know how to use it" I mean "know how to manage your endurance such that you're capable of lasting longer than 1 Dark Regen without reaching for endurance help". If you're having problems with managing your endurance with DA, the problem is not with the set. It's with you not liking a set that uses a difference performance limiter than you are used to, and you not being able to deal with a set that forces you to actually manage your endurance in order to achieve the awesome levels of performance the set is capable of. |
I'm an idiot because you ignorant people don't read before you post? Like, i said in an earlier post, I LIKE THE SET. DID YOU MISS THAT, TOO? I'm use to playing EVERY set, in case you wanna know. I have 50's in each AT, so i'm not use to 1 performance limiter.
It's not misreading when someone says the set is fine as is, BUT I PLAY WITH RADS AND KINS. Hmm, i wonder why? Prolly to manage the endurance problem. Or "just pop blues". PLEASE, tell me how either statement is misread... Go ahead, i'll wait.
Regen may have alot of clickies but i can click every one of them 1000 times and not run out of endurance. Trust me, i have a kat/regen at 50. Was my first 5 years ago.
Like i said, post some numbers or builds to back it up, please. If not, then shut up about it. Or, we can just play the name calling forum war like the other 12 year olds.
Please, take me on a mish or yours set to 0 or +1 x8 ( because that's what i run my toons at) and let me see the "ultimate warrior" with no end issues w/o bonuses. Please, i'll pay you 100mil to see it on Justice.
you are taking this to personal eryq and i suggest you back off this thread for a couple of days. and again i see no contradiction in what fulmes said. you are completely misreading it. here is an idea, if it is dark regeneration that is hurting your end, slot it with 2 acc 1 heal and 2 end red. 18.4 end per use with just plain old common io's. better then 33.8 with no end red. and the funny part is that with one heal io and 2 acc io's you'll hit everytime, except for the 5%, adn have all if not most of your health back.
as for this statement,
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if you are having end issues you should not be fighting at x8. that is not what the powers are balanced for and you know it. do not come to the forums complaining about a power set when you aren't running at what they were balanced for.| Please, take me on a mish or yours set to 0 or +1 x8 ( because that's what i run my toons at) |
now, stop misreading everything like you always do and maybe have someone read this to you and then explain it so you understand.
Which characters do you run, SO's only, at +0/x8? I'm curious. All of them?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I'm going to take Aggrovac, the 6 million inf man, out to try a 0/x8 radio mission against CoT, at level 50.
No, it's not "SO's only", but I did this build for 6 million inf back in I9, over a weekend, so surely it can't be THAT overpowered?
EDIT 1:
Huh. Can't do it.
Lemme try Boltcutter- L50, SO only, BS/inv scrapper that I also haven't played for a year or two.
EDIT 2:
Nope! Died twice on the first spawn. Might have done better if I hadn't waited so long to hit Unstoppable.
EDIT 3: Managed it with Niefelherse, an Ice/Axe tanker. Admittedly, that's an Ice/Axe with a Numina and Regen unique, a Kismet +Acc, 200 bonus HP, +25% recharge, and a few other minor things in there. And some of those fights went long enough for Hibernate to be needed, used, and recharge.
EDIT 4: MAnaged it again with Orbital Bombardment, an IO'd out L44 Dark/En tank. It merely requires time.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Sharker, do you know what the word means? He said its a cheap toggle set, then said he ran with rads and kins and slotted for end issues, like i did. Now, go look up the word contradiction. How is that misunderstood? How should it have been said then?
Either way, i'm done here. It's been real, and it's been fun but it hasn't been real fun. Maintaining end shouldn't be a side game like Um says /DA is.
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What I actually said is that the set has a cheap control toggle in it. |
Originally Posted by eryq2
Sharker, do you know what the word means? He said its a cheap toggle set, then said he ran with rads and kins and slotted for end issues, like i did. Now, go look up the word contradiction. How is that misunderstood? How should it have been said then?
Either way, i'm done here. It's been real, and it's been fun but it hasn't been real fun. Maintaining end shouldn't be a side game like Um says /DA is. |
You either can't read or choose not to. Given the choice of "you're too stupid to understand what I said" or "you're lying about my position"... does it matter what I believe?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Personally I did it with teammates, and by slotting a lot of END reduction (yes, in my attacks too.) In return I got one of the hardest to kill, biggest-PBAOE sets out there.
... but, hey, if you only want something that's as tough as Invuln you can run only some of those toggles.
To be honest, DA is the only set in this entire game I find lacking in such regard. I'm not one to be so critical of a set but I cannot help state my opinions in contrary to those praising it when I disagree.
"If you don't like, don't play it," is not an acceptable solution for me. I'd rather hear from Castle that he finds the set performing adequately and sees no need for further evaluation. At that point, I'll just avoid it since no matter what I say nothing will change.