They're called idiots. Just take it and use it and everyone will love you for it. Not to mention the Defense values are good fr you too. 
@Mazzo Grave
Webmaster Grave, Virtueverse!
Energy/Energy Blaster Guide
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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Obviously one choice in a game decides of someone's intelligence. *roll eyes*|
Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
They're called idiots. Just take it and use it and everyone will love you for it. Not to mention the Defense values are good fr you too.
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That topic is a beaten and re-beaten dead horse. Some people don't take X power in Y set and people wonder why.
1) They don't know much about the power.
2) They have a good reason to skip it and you should ask THEM, not random people on the forum. =p
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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^This
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
They're called idiots. Just take it and use it and everyone will love you for it. Not to mention the Defense values are good fr you too.
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For Soldiers, I would really want to hear the really really really good reason a person would not take a 15% defense toggle and take something else, not to mention that it gives the defense to everyone else, I really would. So I could get a laugh before I /facepalm.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Obviously one choice in a game decides of someone's intelligence. *roll eyes*
That topic is a beaten and re-beaten dead horse. Some people don't take X power in Y set and people wonder why. 1) They don't know much about the power. 2) They have a good reason to skip it and you should ask THEM, not random people on the forum. =p |
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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^Even more this. i have had the same experience several times recently.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
For Soldiers, I would really want to hear the really really really good reason a person would not take a 15% defense toggle and take something else, not to mention that it gives the defense to everyone else, I really would. So I could get a laugh before I /facepalm.
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i'm playing a Huntsman style Soldier currently. Bane branch but sticking with the rifle. TT: Maneuvers helps keep me alive when solo and on teams. The fact that it also helps any nearby teammates is a convenience.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I think that the reason for a lot of it is that many don't realize how good the power actually is. Many probably just look at the power and think: 'Maneuvers? Doesn't that give like, 2% def?" and skip it. They don't realize that even widow maneuvers is almost 50% stronger than the 'normal' one, let alone soldier maneuvers, which is almost 200% stronger.
Many people just aren't interested in learning detailed information about the powers in this game. If it sounds or looks good, they take it, if it doesn't, they don't - and maneuvers is about as un-flashy as it gets in this game. Unless you go off looking to try and understand the numbers, it's not easy to see what it would do for you.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Other than not knowing what the power does, there is zero reason to skip Maneuvers, especially on a Spider (since it gives double the defense of the Widow version). I suppose an argument could be made for a NW or Fort with perma Mind Link, but even then unless you've invested heavily in IO sets you'll still want Maneuvers as a cushion against defense debuffs.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
For Soldiers, I would really want to hear the really really really good reason a person would not take a 15% defense toggle and take something else, not to mention that it gives the defense to everyone else, I really would. So I could get a laugh before I /facepalm.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
For Soldiers, I would really want to hear the really really really good reason a person would not take a 15% defense toggle and take something else, not to mention that it gives the defense to everyone else, I really would. So I could get a laugh before I /facepalm.
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Then go ask the people that skipped it. Maybe one of them will have a good reason! =p
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
There's no possible good reason for skipping TT:M from a numbers perspective.
You're discounting IQ 
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Widows can sort of justify it if they have perma mindlink. Soldiers, however, have no sane reason to pass it up other than not knowing what it does. It'd be like asking a forcefielder to skip dispersion bubble.
Rule number six of an empathy defender is NEVER underestimate a blaster's ability to die. I don't care if he has CM, Fort, both RAs, bubbles (both FF and Sonic), and is fighting next to a Storm defender with hurricane on. If there is a way to die in that situation, the blaster will find it.
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Do i even need to say that i have seen so many people do this lmao. But at least they USUALLY tell you ahead of time! Which i can handle, if they tell me of course |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Kumquat
It'd be like asking a forcefielder to skip dispersion bubble.
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Now back to the original problem at hand
This is what really ticks me off about some people who play the soldiers. They get GREAT defense numbers really early on, and all you need is 2 or so on your team and your team is good to go (1 is great but two "heads" are better than one). I will honestly say that almost all of the teams that i have gotten on recently have been people who did not even bother to take the maneuvers. I know it is there pick, but it just ircks me lmao
" I don't let me kids play on the Freedom Server" -Oya
Because they're crazy.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Exactly. I've come to realize the folks who come to forums don't really represent a majority of the player base. If you're a forumite you are here because you want to learn some more details about the game, trick out your build, or just plain learn to play better. Most people in-game dont really care about numbers, stats, IO sets, etc..they just want to log on and use flashy powers with cool graphics. A hard core gamer is going to take maneuvers..but other people are going to skip it for a power that "does something" visceral. |
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
....................
Many people just aren't interested in learning detailed information about the powers in this game. If it sounds or looks good, they take it, if it doesn't, they don't - and maneuvers is about as un-flashy as it gets in this game. Unless you go off looking to try and understand the numbers, it's not easy to see what it would do for you. |
And yes..seeing banes and crabs w/o maneuvers makes me cry..but I keep my mouth shut. Most people don't want build criticism and are happy with their choices.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
Here's my take on this. People have the choice to pick any powers no matter what, but they shouldn't whine if they get mocked or called an idiot for their choices.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I have a perma-ML Widow, but she still needs TT:M. She also needs CJ, Mask Pressence, and about +5% global DEF (which I got from Guassian and Steadfast). So I suppose you could skip TT:M if you also wanted to pick up an extra +8% DEF in your build. But that would be pretty dumb.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Other than not knowing what the power does, there is zero reason to skip Maneuvers, especially on a Spider (since it gives double the defense of the Widow version). I suppose an argument could be made for a NW or Fort with perma Mind Link, but even then unless you've invested heavily in IO sets you'll still want Maneuvers as a cushion against defense debuffs.
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Personally I think TT:M is one of those powers you should take as soon as it unlocks (4 for Widows, 10 for Soldiers). Like Fulcrum Shift, Assault Bot, or Shield Charge. Yeah, you could talk about how you aren't a conformist and have the freedom to make your own build and stuff, but why did you roll a VEAT if you didn't want to run leadership toggles? Especially ones that directly benefit your own defenses.
I ran a team once with three VEATs, around level 30-32. As a Dominator I was cruising along happily until I faceplanted. After I rezzed, that's when I noticed none of the three VEATs had TT:M. Or Mind Link. I chimed in, "You know, you guys should pick up TT:M. It gives you a good boost to your defense as well as benefits the rest of the team." Two of the people, ENRAGED, shouted at me that they aren't elitists, and this is not WoW, so they can do whatever they want. Also, that it's been working so far (despite the fact that we had far more deaths than should have been humanly possible with 3 VEATs on the team). The third person said "Oh yeah? I was just taking powers that sounded good, because I couldn't find a good guide. I'll take it for my next power pick. Thanks!" You can probably guess which one wound up on my friends list.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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At least it is better than a petless MM. Although, I would imagine that quite a few petless MMs would have gone as a Corruptor if dual pistols was available. Each VEAT has benefits they provide besides Maneuvers. Crabs has quite a bit of AoE and are able to play a pseudo-MM. Banes seem to be a stalker that has some durability. If a person doesn't have room for Maneuvers for their build, then just mention how great Maneuvers is in a team setting and leave it at that.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
The thing is its not just awesome in a team, its awesome solo too.
Most tanks/brutes would give their left arm to get such a high bonus global def toggle at such a cheap endurance cost, and if you are into your IOs it makes softcapping def pretty easy
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That is like choosing death over life by skipping in on a Soldier (Bane speacially), I would honestly say that it is not a smart choice to skip it, I would gladly give up travelling for this power, and considering how many options there are for that it isn't much of a sacrifice.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Obviously one choice in a game decides of someone's intelligence. *roll eyes*
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That topic is a beaten and re-beaten dead horse. Some people don't take X power in Y set and people wonder why. 1) They don't know much about the power. |
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| 2) They have a good reason to skip it and you should ask THEM, not random people on the forum. =p |
I would like to ask them, however, I want an intelligent answer.
Overall, it vexes me when I see a soldier and to a certain a extent even a Widow without this power.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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If the player doesn't die, then it's not a "not smart choice". |
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
That is like choosing death over life by skipping in on a Soldier (Bane speacially), I would honestly say that it is not a smart choice to skip it, I would gladly give up travelling for this power, and considering how many options there are for that it isn't much of a sacrifice.
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| It takes a level 50 villain to get a VEAT, if you get a villain to 50 and don't know what defense does, or how to look at stats on a power, I have no sympathy for you. This goes for first time players that get PLed to 50 without playing the game, no sympathy none. So this is an invalid excuse considering they have a big blue button that says "Click here to see power info" really it is idiot proof but not lazy proof. |
For exemple, when i made my WS, i didn't bother checking the stats for the "tp friend". I knew what the power was like and i didn't care much for the recharge or endurance cost.
A lot of people could do the same exact thing for maneuvers, but negatively.
Also... having a level 50 (or many) doesn't mean you'll know all the numbers, mechanics and Mids. I know vets that played the game for a long time, are very decent player, but still asked me what was "soft capped def" or "ST". Some people build there characters and adjust with experience, without caring for the theorie.
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There isn't a good reason, honestly at level 10 that is probably the best choice. And Widows get it at level 4 power pools ain't even opened yet. What is the excuse? I would like to ask them, however, I want an intelligent answer. Overall, it vexes me when I see a soldier and to a certain a extent even a Widow without this power. |
So i have no doubt that any power can be skipped, for at least one person, and still be a good choice.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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That's exactly the right attitude. You can try to help them, but in the end, it's there choice. =)
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Originally Posted by starphoenix
At least it is better than a petless MM. Although, I would imagine that quite a few petless MMs would have gone as a Corruptor if dual pistols was available. Each VEAT has benefits they provide besides Maneuvers. Crabs has quite a bit of AoE and are able to play a pseudo-MM. Banes seem to be a stalker that has some durability. If a person doesn't have room for Maneuvers for their build, then just mention how great Maneuvers is in a team setting and leave it at that.
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
This week (and it's just Tuesday!) I've teamed with two spiders that didn't have maneuvers. As a min-maxer it does make me bristle. But this point is very true. Actually, the one died on a MoITF run, and probably would have survived had he had another 15% defense (though it's always debatable). There were other reasons, the spawn directly on top of him, not exiting on time, etc. It still is annoying when you know they could be better.
FireWyvern's reasons are absolutely true.
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I think instead telling them they get ~15% defense enhanced, I'll tell them it's like having a medium luck all the time. That just might be enough to get them thinking.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
1) They don't know much about the power.
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| 2) They have a good reason to skip it and you should ask THEM, not random people on the forum. =p |
Now the second player was very much in the first category. He had it once, but complained that every time he got hit, TT:M detoggled. My mind boggled. I didn't press the matter. In hindsight, that probably meant they didn't have fortitude either, and perhaps were still sporting the wolf spider passive instead of the crab spider.
But in any case, definitely approach asking the question carefully. Sending a 'Dude u suck u dun hav TT:M' doesn't usually end well. No, this isn't from experience.
The Soldier trademark powers; (Soldier/Crab)
CT: Defensive
TT: Maneuvers
Venom Grenade
Suppression/Heavy Burst
(Wide Area Webnade)
Frag grenade
Banes, pretty much all of it is golden. Either way, SoA's are a very solid AT. And yes, get Maneuvers 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I think a SoA without TT manuvers ranks somewhere between a petless mastermind and a tauntless tank.
I would pug with them but I would not invite them to my friends list. I would think twice before asking them to a group doing a challenging TF.
I've been starting to work on my SoA, and finally got him to lvl 25 this week and am enjoying Crabbing. Sitting at lvl 14 for a long time, I decided to take him to lvl 24 for branching, and along the way was part of many PuGs. Many of those teams also included other VEATS, and I had always heard about how amazing multiple VEAT teams are considering the multiple Leadership pools.
However, I noticed that almost none of the other VEATS had any of the Tactical Training powers. Several Widows and Soldiers did not have even Maneuvers, which I had thought formed a large part of the archetypes defenses. I was wondering, is there any reason that people seem to be skipping these? Is it maybe to just cut down on end consumption pre-24? I can't think of any other reason to skip these powers.