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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Obviously one choice in a game decides of someone's intelligence. *roll eyes*
That topic is a beaten and re-beaten dead horse. Some people don't take X power in Y set and people wonder why. 1) They don't know much about the power. 2) They have a good reason to skip it and you should ask THEM, not random people on the forum. =p |
As far as I've been able to determine there are 2 reasons why people skip this power.
1. They look at the numbers and they think it doesn't do much.
These people are ignoring the several other Defense powers available to Widows and Spiders that all stack with TT: M. They are missing the design of these ATs which is based on cumulative defense values.
2. They say "it's a team buff and I only solo".
These people are essentially making the same mistake as the first group.
In retrospect, that's all basically one reason, not two, and it all fits under your option 1, above, they are ignorant of how the power works.
Based on my observation of the numbers from these ATs your option 2 is invalid. There is no good reason to skip TT: M. None of which I have ever been made aware.
So, yeah, skipping TT: M doesn't mean you're stupid, it means you're ignorant.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I think what needs to be done is have the tactical training powers for soldiers and widows to be renamed so people KNOW it's different from leadership.
Tactical Training: Superior Maneuvers
Just like Superior Invisibility from Illusion Control! 
(Actually, it's a bit of a mouthful for one power :3)
Ideon's Paragonwiki page
Member of Paragon/Rogue Knights
Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
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Every Soldier that I teamed with that didn't have TT:M is the first to fall, I have yet to team with a Soldier that doesn't have it and survives.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
If the player doesn't die, then it's not a "not smart choice".
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| Except that the power is named almost exactly like an already existing power. |
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| Can you say you check every little stats on every single power of a set you'll play? |
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| For exemple, when i made my WS, i didn't bother checking the stats for the "tp friend". I knew what the power was like and i didn't care much for the recharge or endurance cost. |
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| A lot of people could do the same exact thing for maneuvers, but negatively. |
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| Also... having a level 50 (or many) doesn't mean you'll know all the numbers, mechanics and Mids. I know vets that played the game for a long time, are very decent player, but still asked me what was "soft capped def" or "ST". Some people build there characters and adjust with experience, without caring for the theorie. |
"Why do some attacks miss me and how can I get them to miss me more"
The answer...
"Defense, you can get it from Stealth, Maneuvers and Weave (at the time I was a blaster so these were like my only options) also you can use purple inspirations."
So your friend may not have known what soft cap was, but I bet he knew what defense was.
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That's just personal choice. On a lot of characters, i've skipped a power that people worship. Because it didn't fit my playstyle and i could get better with something else. Same with some people i've meet. So i have no doubt that any power can be skipped, for at least one person, and still be a good choice. |
Apparently a VEATs job is to protect the team with Teamwork or Superior Training.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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It already is different, last time I checked Tactical Training: Maneuvers is not in the leadership pool.
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Originally Posted by Ideon
I think what needs to be done is have the tactical training powers for soldiers and widows to be renamed so people KNOW it's different from leadership.
Tactical Training: Superior Maneuvers Just like Superior Invisibility from Illusion Control! (Actually, it's a bit of a mouthful for one power :3) |
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
On a team right now with a 24 Crab who doesn't have it. They have CT:Offensive and CT:Defensive. I asked them about it but they didn't respond.
I'll say honestly that a VEAT without any team buffs is dead weight on a team. Without team buffs, the other stuff they offer is only average. Anything else they can offer can be outdone by various other ATs. It's the combination of damage, debuffs, and buffs they offer that cements them as a solid AT. A VEAT without any team buffs is basically a Corruptor without their secondary.
At the very least, a Soldier should have TT:M and a Widow should have TT:M+ML. I can forgive a VEAT for not having TT:A, TT:L, or TT:V (even though both of my VEATs have all of the team buffs), but TT:M (+ML) is just basics.
It's like trying to justify playing Forcefield and not taking any forcefields. You can come up with all the reasons you want, but you're only hurting the team, who has certain expectations from your character which you aren't delivering. You're filling (and wasting) a slot. Like a Brute that stands in the back using Aid Self, you aren't doing the thing you were recruited to do.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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This.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Other than not knowing what the power does, there is zero reason to skip Maneuvers, especially on a Spider (since it gives double the defense of the Widow version).
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Take it. Use it. Love it. Be LOVED for it.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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My opinion: TT:M is what allows my Lvl. 30 Crab to run up to a mob, fire off all my AoEs and survive the following retaliation, usually with flying colors, or if I'm unlucky, with enough health to drop back and heal.
It's what allows my Bane to wade into a 0/8 crowd and only loose a quarter of his health without using inspirations.
And consider the fact that this is the first time I've ever played a Spider (Heck, I'm still in the first month of my CoX "life") and am probably not using the right tactics. If it can keep me alive, despite my inexperience, I'd say it's highly beneficial.
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You don't seem to have the right point of view to understand this.|
Originally Posted by Da_Captain
It already is different, last time I checked Tactical Training: Maneuvers is not in the leadership pool.
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Here's mine:
When I first saw "Tactical Training: Maneuvers", it just looked like they stuck a fancy title on "Leadership: Maneuvers" in order to keep it from looking like they just copy and pasted the power.
So I assumed it was the same thing.
You see, I'm not a numbers and stats person (I'm a right brained person with ADD, so that's a given), so I often don't check the info because I find it boring and/or confusing. Luckily, since I'm fairly intelligent, I checked the forums on SoA builds and read the praise of TT:M.
If you're like me and "tl;dr":
Newbie says "TT:M keeps me alive" and "The names are similar enough to be confusing".
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Fair enough.
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Originally Posted by Azurakna
My opinion: TT:M is what allows my Lvl. 30 Crab to run up to a mob, fire off all my AoEs and survive the following retaliation, usually with flying colors, or if I'm unlucky, with enough health to drop back and heal.
It's what allows my Bane to wade into a 0/8 crowd and only loose a quarter of his health without using inspirations. And consider the fact that this is the first time I've ever played a Spider (Heck, I'm still in the first month of my CoX "life") and am probably not using the right tactics. If it can keep me alive, despite my inexperience, I'd say it's highly beneficial. You don't seem to have the right point of view to understand this. Here's mine: When I first saw "Tactical Training: Maneuvers", it just looked like they stuck a fancy title on "Leadership: Maneuvers" in order to keep it from looking like they just copy and pasted the power. So I assumed it was the same thing. You see, I'm not a numbers and stats person (I'm a right brained person with ADD, so that's a given), so I often don't check the info because I find it boring and/or confusing. Luckily, since I'm fairly intelligent, I checked the forums on SoA builds and read the praise of TT:M. If you're like me and "tl;dr": Newbie says "TT:M keeps me alive" and "The names are similar enough to be confusing". |
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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I think a lot of new players thought VEAT's version of Maneuver is just as bad as the one from Power Tool. Maybe a better description is needed or hell, change the power name so new players don't think it's the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Goshnova
I've been starting to work on my SoA, and finally got him to lvl 25 this week and am enjoying Crabbing. Sitting at lvl 14 for a long time, I decided to take him to lvl 24 for branching, and along the way was part of many PuGs. Many of those teams also included other VEATS, and I had always heard about how amazing multiple VEAT teams are considering the multiple Leadership pools.
However, I noticed that almost none of the other VEATS had any of the Tactical Training powers. Several Widows and Soldiers did not have even Maneuvers, which I had thought formed a large part of the archetypes defenses. I was wondering, is there any reason that people seem to be skipping these? Is it maybe to just cut down on end consumption pre-24? I can't think of any other reason to skip these powers. |
Saving endurance? How about saving time traveling from hospital to mish? Soldier's Maneuver is arguably the best team defense buff in the game with large radius, defense-to-all and cheap endurance cost.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Sorry for raising this thing up from the grave, my MM's zombies weren't accepting their rez. 
The reason I'm bumping this is because I17 is coming, and the option to play unlockable ATs when having a toon at lvl 20 on that side. I know I don't have a 50 hero, best I have is a 32 shield tank that I've shelved. I can't wait to try out a kheld, in addition of the soldier I'm leveling up now.
I felt this is a topic soldiers like myself need to see and take note of.
me, I wont tell them they must take it. I'll ask why they didn't, and explain the benefits. If they don't take it then, their loss. Heck, I met a mastermind who at level 40 hadn't taken either pet upgrade power, and had no plans to take them either. I explained what they did, and he said he hadn't realized they gave additional attacks to his henchmen. He just saw the end costs and thought them useless.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Wow! That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! What dummy takes the time to look into the info of a power, and only reads half of it!! This isn't directed at you Madam, just the guy you are talking about. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
me, I wont tell them they must take it. I'll ask why they didn't, and explain the benefits. If they don't take it then, their loss. Heck, I met a mastermind who at level 40 hadn't taken either pet upgrade power, and had no plans to take them either. I explained what they did, and he said he hadn't realized they gave additional attacks to his henchmen. He just saw the end costs and thought them useless.
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Anyways, I'm brand new to VEATs and I know TT:M is very valuable. I'm level 10 as of today, but i'm picking up all the team buffs ASAP. So if you want to play with a real SoA, i'm on Freedom server. My SoA is called Captain Vell. Join me if you want to live!
Even a widow/fortunata with mindlink I think should take the tactical trianing powers.
more defense is always good.
my IO build is going to end up with me getting close to about 80% defense of melee and range with all my toggles/mind link running.
trust me, teams will love you for life if you can boost their defense and offense alot.
throw in a kin with fulcrum shift on top of all that and let the epicness begin.
but...it's all up to people's personal tastes, some people don't like toggles.
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
That's the thing. Even people who really hate teaming and have their "never accept invites" flag up would benefit from TT toggles. Increased hit, damage, AND defense for dirt cheap toggles? Even if they're solo they're a team of 1, and team powers benefit them 
All my VEATs run Maneuvers. When they first came out I had pointed out that it was out of all of the powers "The One". I do come across teams where I have the ability to buff others and make them look good but it's not reciprocal, due to them having builds that make them look good too. It can mean that with some peoples dynamics and non reciprocal support that I can't unleash everything I got and so I don't particularly have the fun I should have as a VEAT. Not rushed I just play something else with other people or find other people in order to achieve what does amount to fun. Normally I don't do fun but in this case I make an exception.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.