Was I in the wrong here?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-30 09:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Tells like "Can I join ur team?" forced me into permanent /hide from searches.
Once on sub 40 minutes RSF, i got 5 tells asking "Can I join ur team?", and, I think, twice from the same person even after replying "No, on SF"
Other times I've got simlar tells while waiting for team set up for ITF, LGTF or during RWZ raids. In all cases these tells were from players in 14-18 level range
(do they ever look what zone is it?) My RUDE response was "Sure, You need to be in zone to get invite: mixed team". Finally, after getting more than 20 of such tells during just few days, I gave up and went into permanent hide.
Quote:
Don't insult us, GG.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Maybe he was RPing a villain?
 |
It ain't nice
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
In modern times, sure. Several decades ago it was common courtesy to let a stranger stay the night if you had room for 'em |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Still not really, as you're odds of someone letting you stay are pretty much zip.
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
Your analogy is substantially worse, because comparing teaming in a public place to YOUR OWN HOME borders on absurd to such an extent I have trouble accepting this is coming from you, Lemur. Come on, man, that's hyperbole and you know it.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
The restaurant tables analogy doesnt really work. It's more like knocking on people's doors and asking if they have room for you to stay. You have no idea if they have a spare bedroom, you have no idea what they're up to, but you come along and ask anyway, hoping someone will say sure stay.
|
If you want to draw a proper analogy, draw it from context. People online exist in a public space, doing things together, but not segregated from the public. That, and you need to pick an event that doesn't come with a significant negative stigma attached to it. Letting a stranger crash on your couch for free is unrealistic, so you need an event where perfect strangers are acceptable to join mid-way through, both by invitation and at random.
And, right now, I can't think of a good analogy for such a thing. The restaurant table analogy is loaded, because people don't go out of their way asking strangers to sit at their table. The house analogy is even more absurd, because NO-ONE goes out asking for people to crash on his couch, and since team members pay no upkeep or admission, you can't really justify it for rent.
I guess if you found some mystic little town where people all build cars and are willing to house anyone who can help them with it, then the analogy would be valid. But then, you'd have an argument both for people going out asking for help and offering a spare bedroom just as you'd have one for people knocking on doors and asking people if they have a car they need help with. The key here is that it's a loaded analogy if you start with an event that has a social stigma against it, because that's instantly loaded towards the anti-social. But teaming is not like having a stranger sleep in your house. And if you go with an analogy where this event is accepted and expected, then you can't drive an argument that it's expected to occur only in one way.
Think of it this way - bosses need people to work for them, and people need jobs. It's not out of the ordinary for a boss to phone people from employment agencies and interview them, just as it's not out of the ordinary for people to apply for jobs and ask to be interviewed.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Actually, I think the Restaurant analogy is fairly accurate- It's a Restaurant (It's CoH). We all go there for the same reason, to eat. (We all play CoH). Some of us don't mind sharing our table with strangers (Inviting strangers to our team), while some of us only want to eat with the people we came with (our current team), even if that was nobody else (Soloing).|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
The restaurant tables analogy doesnt really work. It's more like knocking on people's doors and asking if they have room for you to stay. You have no idea if they have a spare bedroom, you have no idea what they're up to, but you come along and ask anyway, hoping someone will say sure stay.
|
Well, except at a restaurant, we can all see if my Scrapper is hovering protectively over her chicken mcdeadlets, or my Controller is handing out samples, or my Controller is letting whoever walks by sample his wares. (The Blaster and the Tank are both in the parking lot, looking for a fight)
And I can also see wether that table is full of teenagers, a wedding party, or a bunch of gamers playing Magic...
In fact, you're right, It doesn't work- I'd actually be much more likely to approach a stranger's table at a restaurant than I would try inviting myself to a team.
Quote:
Actually, there's only as many tables as there are people online. The number isn't actually infinite.
|
Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
Except it's not a full McD's, there are an infinite number of tables. and a pile of people standing around who'd like to share tables. Plus a ton of other people standing around waiting for someone else to take the initiative to choose a table...
|
Quote:
While *I* agree with you that his example is silly, some people actually see it that way. I've seen people say it before and there are others here in this thread. Some people really believe that reverse-invites are a huge imposition, and if they hold that belief there's not much you can do except be aware that they exist and you might run into one. Too, some teams aren't just loose bands of people, but buddies or a tight SG group, who are not interested in even unwitting intruders, and they forget that it's not blaringly obvious.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Your analogy is substantially worse, because comparing teaming in a public place to YOUR OWN HOME borders on absurd to such an extent I have trouble accepting this is coming from you, Lemur. Come on, man, that's hyperbole and you know it.
|
I personally never reverse-invite myself, but I don't care if I get asked. My response is always one of two: "We're full.
" (if that's the truth) or "Will ask." I don't like leading so I'm never the one to make a decision like that, but I certainly will pass along the message. I always try to treat others as I myself would like to be treated. (Usually the leader really is looking for more, by the way.)
I dislike it when people try to invite themselves to my team.
I always answer, "NO".
And if they say anything other than, "ok thanks"...
I put them on global ignore.
Quote:
So if I say "OK then." I'm going on global ignore? |
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
And if they say anything other than, "ok thanks"...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
I have to say, this analogy is deeply flawed. asking to stay at someones house is asking for a significant accomidation on the part of the people you are asking, not to mention a risk that the petitioner could do bodily harm to you once allowed in. asking to join a team in a video game, particularly one designed to be played in teams is a minor inconvenience and carries no risk. provided they are polite, some peoples severity of reactions is simply baffling, just say no, if they persist orr are rude, that's a different story, but beyond that it is far from a significant inconvenience.
|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
The restaurant tables analogy doesnt really work. It's more like knocking on people's doors and asking if they have room for you to stay. You have no idea if they have a spare bedroom, you have no idea what they're up to, but you come along and ask anyway, hoping someone will say sure stay.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
Actually, I think the Restaurant analogy is fairly accurate- It's a Restaurant (It's CoH). We all go there for the same reason, to eat. (We all play CoH). Some of us don't mind sharing our table with strangers (Inviting strangers to our team), while some of us only want to eat with the people we came with (our current team), even if that was nobody else (Soloing).
Well, except at a restaurant, we can all see if my Scrapper is hovering protectively over her chicken mcdeadlets, or my Controller is handing out samples, or my Controller is letting whoever walks by sample his wares. (The Blaster and the Tank are both in the parking lot, looking for a fight) And I can also see wether that table is full of teenagers, a wedding party, or a bunch of gamers playing Magic... In fact, you're right, It doesn't work- I'd actually be much more likely to approach a stranger's table at a restaurant than I would try inviting myself to a team. |
maybe an ok analogy is if you are at a basketball court playing a game with your friends and someone comes up and asks to play. the analogy has limits because uneven numbers of players are generally avoided, but at least it covers the fact that this is a setting where people do approach one another and getting together, while not required, still nets different rewards than just shooting baskets by yourself.
and to head off this old chestnut before it takes root, I am not saying that everyone needs to team, i solo often myself, but i am saying that this kind of game does carry the implication of teaming, and getting pissy about it is silly given the nature of the game genre. so long as everyone is polite you are not being put out by typing "no, sorry"
Quote:
Oh, I've seen plenty of people holding the same feeling, and much as I appreciate the sentiment, it's just not enforceable on the Internet. The moment you set foot online, you are setting foot out of your house, off your property and into the public domain. There are still ways to remain private, obviously, but steps need to be taken to ensure that, because it's not the default stance. Neither the game nor a team is like the sanctity of your own home, by virtue of you being in a shared, public space. People who feel that it should are always going to be disappointed, because even WITH all the measures there are, you can never completely wall yourself away from other people. The game uses a persistent word for the express reason of putting people inside a shared experience. As someone who hates shared experiences, I can tell you that you can go a long way towards avoiding other people, but you can never hide from them completely.|
Originally Posted by Primal
While *I* agree with you that his example is silly, some people actually see it that way. I've seen people say it before and there are others here in this thread. Some people really believe that reverse-invites are a huge imposition, and if they hold that belief there's not much you can do except be aware that they exist and you might run into one. Too, some teams aren't just loose bands of people, but buddies or a tight SG group, who are not interested in even unwitting intruders, and they forget that it's not blaringly obvious.
|
Quote:
|
I personally never reverse-invite myself, but I don't care if I get asked. My response is always one of two: "We're full. " (if that's the truth) or "Will ask." I don't like leading so I'm never the one to make a decision like that, but I certainly will pass along the message. I always try to treat others as I myself would like to be treated. (Usually the leader really is looking for more, by the way.)
|
In the end, it's a question of using your words. In a public space, you're gonna' get people talking to you. Instead of being offended or scared, just use your words to solve the problem and, if the person isn't receptive, just ignore them. Unlike in the real world, here you can pretty much make another person just about not even exist, so there's no reason to be upset at anyone.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I always find a team this way and I ask very politely. I even say what level I am and what my primary and secondary is. Yet I do get some very rude tells back which seem to mirror what some people think in this thread.
I am in no way inviting myself to your team. I'm asking if you have a spot and if you would like another to join you. I am not aware that you wish to keep the team small or that you would like just team with your friends, in which case I would have to ask how you got your friends in the first place if you only ever team with people you know. (No, I would not -actually- ask that.)
If you don't want me there, say so, or don't respond at all. I don't mind if you don't want me, nor do I mind if you don't answer at all. Just please don't assume I'm trying to purposefully annoy you and intrude on your team. I can't read your mind.
There are also some very bad examples going around. Would you really find it rude if I asked if I could sit and chat with you at McDonalds? Not in a creepy way, just in a "No other table will have me and I don't feel like eating alone, do you mind if I sit with you (guys) and talk, or we could just eat and not talk, I just enjoy the company." Would you really sit there and ignore me and tell me "No, you are being rude, I don't want anyone eating with me, you should have known that."
Asking to stay in someone's home is a very bad example as it goes from being a public area to being a private area. Public areas (MMO) have public interactions.
Then again I'm a pretty social person who enjoys the company of others and meeting new people who could be my potential new best friend. If I only teamed with people I knew and enjoyed, how would I have found anyone to begin with?
Well, I don't mind people asking for an invitation to a team I am in. Often it is the best method to keep a team going. With the least stress for the teamleader as well. The teamleader wants to play as much as everyone else. They don't want to spend hours looking for willing teammembers either (The reason why so many people hate being a teamleader). So by all means keep asking.
Yes you were. So was he, and I'll get to that in a moment, but I'm going to fly in the face of most posts here and claim that the bigger offense was on your side.
He made his position clear to you. Aggravated tone notwithstanding, he wasn't rude. Not polite, certainly, but far from crossing the line into rudeness. You might not agree {and for that matter, neither do I}, but that's beside the point - considering that his opinion didn't intrude on your affairs it should have been, if not respected, then at least acknowledged and accepted. And while you should have let him be, you decided to escalate the conflict for no practical reason, leading to the exchange you provided, further annoying and alienating another player which might have invited you into his team under different circumstances in return for no beneficial results for either of you.
As for his argument, it is my experience that leadership can be perceived as a burden when one would prefer to simply relax thus preferring to follow instead, as is the fact that in some cases such initiative, i.e. tracking down a specific type of character in lieu of simply broadcasting can be seen as a positive trait. However, this was demonstrably not the case on this particular occasion.
Quote:
It's different then that. You go to McDonalds to eat. Your intent is food. In such a setting it'd be totally out of line.|
Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
I'm really not a big fan of "reverse invites", to me it's akin to walking up to a stranger's table at McDonalds and having a seat. That being said, this guy overreacted a bit. Can't say for sure if he was really a jerk or just had his fill for the day- theres no real way to know if he's always like that, or if you were the 217th person to ask him that hour.
|
But you log on to CoH to play a game, a public game that promotes teaming. Which is why I'd tend to look at it more like a pick up game of basketball. And IMO, it's a bold thing to do, but not out of line to ask a team if they need another member. It's a game, teamings part of the game, some people are more proactive then others.
But again, that's who i feel. YMMV.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
Quote:
You do if there's a search comment. I hope you read and respect search comments.|
Originally Posted by Vinique
I am not aware that you wish to keep the team small or that you would like just team with your friends,
|
Quote:
| Would you really find it rude if I asked if I could sit and chat with you at McDonalds? |
The basketball analogy works best, and /hidesearch is the equivalent of playing on your personal basketball court, not one in public.
Quote:
| If I only teamed with people I knew and enjoyed, how would I have found anyone to begin with? |
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
Quote:
I've heard this before. If someone were to try that these days, 99.9 percent of people asked would probably not answer the door, let alone let a stranger stay. (And for good reason......the rate of murderers, thieves, rapists, et al seems to have shifted to overdrive these days. I don't blame anyone who doesn't let a stranger stay overnight in this Iron Age.)
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
In modern times, sure. Several decades ago it was common courtesy to let a stranger stay the night if you had room for 'em
|
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
Quote:
The difference boils down to your INTEND at said location. |
Originally Posted by Heartbreaker
Actually, I think the Restaurant analogy is fairly accurate- It's a Restaurant (It's CoH). We all go there for the same reason, to eat. (We all play CoH). Some of us don't mind sharing our table with strangers (Inviting strangers to our team), while some of us only want to eat with the people we came with (our current team), even if that was nobody else (Soloing).
Well, except at a restaurant, we can all see if my Scrapper is hovering protectively over her chicken mcdeadlets, or my Controller is handing out samples, or my Controller is letting whoever walks by sample his wares. (The Blaster and the Tank are both in the parking lot, looking for a fight) And I can also see wether that table is full of teenagers, a wedding party, or a bunch of gamers playing Magic... In fact, you're right, It doesn't work- I'd actually be much more likely to approach a stranger's table at a restaurant than I would try inviting myself to a team. |
If i'm at a restrant, i want to eat and relax. No strangers nessessiry. Asking to be included is just odd in said location for said intent.
If i'm at the gym, and a guy wants to work in a set or two with me cause i'm on a mechine he wants to use, or he needs a spot, well, in that situation, it's not an unsual request. I've made it myself.
CoH is a public, gaming location (in cyberspace). Your playing a game that by nature encourges interaction with others. To be offended by said interactions is, IMO, kind of silly. What are you expecting, it's a giant game world? Were you never a little kid who asked if he could join in the kick ball game at recess? it's not much different then that.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
You do if there's a search comment. I hope you read and respect search comments.
|
Search comments are a fickly thing. They don't always show up for me 9 times out of 10 anyways, and half the time are out of date, and don't refelct how many people you HAVE on your team at current anyways. About the only comment you can make that's reliable is, "i only team with friends" or "soloing". That's assuming they show up when you search for a teammate.
I'm not saying you should ignore them, but they'er hardly reliable. (In my expearince) I've been chasticed a few times for not reading search comments there weren't there...
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
Quote:
I don't like it because I consider it intrusive. |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Out of curiostiy, why do you dislike it? It's no worse than you inviting someone else to your team. If you have a spot they could fill (depending on AT etc if you are a player who likes a specific make up) what do you have to lose?
I do agree with the /ignore if they persist. |
Since the thread has been looking for a good analogy and failing, try this one.
A team is like a group of buddies in a bar. They can either be open to meeting new people, or quite satisfied with their current company and not wanting more. Bars are certainly pubic venues and places in which to meet people. However there is an etiquette by which you can get the idea of whether you want people to join your group. You can ask them. Alternatively some group can simply seem gregarious, talking to all (that would be a LFM flag). There is, however, contrary to Sam's claims, no expectation that you have to be intruded upon. It can happen in such a setting, but let's be honest, how many times have you had someone simply walk up to you in a bar and ask to drink with you?
If I saw a table full of buddies sitting there at a table, drinking and telling old stories, I'd be not even vaguely inclined to intrude. If, they were standing in a cluster at the bar, it might be different. There are cues which can convey this sort of information.
The game lacks the accepted MMO means by which to give these cues. The LFT is available and can be used, but LFM is lacking. As such the self promotion you used is understandable, but that doesn't mean I have to like it nor respond to it at all.
Too many alts to list.
Quote:
Nope, that's not out of the ordinary, but someone standing outside the factory asking every worker on their way in if they can come work too would be. That's what we're dealing with in this case. It's solicitation, and most establishments will tell you to stop or move along if they catch you engaging in it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Think of it this way - bosses need people to work for them, and people need jobs. It's not out of the ordinary for a boss to phone people from employment agencies and interview them, just as it's not out of the ordinary for people to apply for jobs and ask to be interviewed.
|
This is where it steps over the line from reasonable to (slightly) intrusive. Blind Invites are generally considered bad, because they have no consideration for what the person is doing. Blind asking without consideration for who is leading, what the activity is, etc is the same kind of intrusion. In a way, it's even worse because it's not limited to a the subset of people that can be invited. It's largely indiscriminate.
I understand that the searcher has no way to know who the leader is, and who else is on the team, but that doesn't excuse it. That's an admitted flaw in the game (one I've tried to get improved more than once), however it's still bothersome when it comes at the wrong time. It hampers people's fun when a well oiled team each has to stop in turn and answer the same question from the same person over and over.
If it were simply a matter of one person interacting with one person, and using their words, I'd be ok. However it's one person getting the same fruitless answer from everyone on the team. When that's the case, you can't be surprised or bothered if your shotgun approach yields the full gamut of possible responses.
I'll accept my analogy as flawed, but so is the restaurant one. They both imply circumstances that are not in play here, and knowledge that isn't in the possession of people trying to find a team.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
Still the analogy fails because when you go to the bar you can see it's a group of friends, and people usually go with friends rather than go hoping to meet a random group. A party would be a better bet, where a lot of random people with a similar friend or friends in common are there. If you are at a party you are more likely to join in a conversation with random people and more likely to allow people into your converstation, but sometimes you will get cliques that don't want people in. However, you can still often see in the attitude of the group which way they will go. As you said at the end (didn't want to quote the whole thing) COH lacks that ability. The only way you can find out is by asking.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
I don't like it because I consider it intrusive.
Since the thread has been looking for a good analogy and failing, try this one. A team is like a group of buddies in a bar... <Snip> If I saw a table full of buddies sitting there at a table, drinking and telling old stories, I'd be not even vaguely inclined to intrude. If, they were standing in a cluster at the bar, it might be different. There are cues which can convey this sort of information. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
This is where it steps over the line from reasonable to (slightly) intrusive. Blind Invites are generally considered bad, because they have no consideration for what the person is doing. Blind asking without consideration for who is leading, what the activity is, etc is the same kind of intrusion. In a way, it's even worse because it's not limited to a the subset of people that can be invited. It's largely indiscriminate.
|
Quote:
Nope, it is nothing like a party. It is a public place in which I do business (or rather purchase as service). I didn't invite you to COH. Nobody we mutually know invited us to COH. We both decided to visit a public place by choice. There is no common ground guaranteed other than we happen to play the same game. |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Still the analogy fails because when you go to the bar you can see it's a group of friends, and people usually go with friends rather than go hoping to meet a random group. A party would be a better bet, where a lot of random people with a similar friend or friends in common are there. If you are at a party you are more likely to join in a conversation with random people and more likely to allow people into your converstation, but sometimes you will get cliques that don't want people in. However, you can still often see in the attitude of the group which way they will go. As you said at the end (didn't want to quote the whole thing) COH lacks that ability. The only way you can find out is by asking.
|
A party implies that at some level of connection, we have common friends. That is not necessarily so here by any means. COH is populated by people from all over the place with very different backgrounds. I could just as easily abhor you as want to deal with you. There's no means by which to express that.
Too many alts to list.
Quote:
Granted, but a team isn't always like a group of mates. For you it may be, to which I reply hide from searchs if the /tells bother you that much. PUGs are common, and rely on random strangers communicating. Somehow I think we are going to have to agree to dissagree as it's clear we approach this game in very different ways.
|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Nope, it is nothing like a party. It is a public place in which I do business (or rather purchase as service). I didn't invite you to COH. Nobody we mutually know invited us to COH. We both decided to visit a public place by choice. There is no common ground guaranteed other than we happen to play the same game.
A party implies that at some level of connection, we have common friends. That is not necessarily so here by any means. COH is populated by people from all over the place with very different backgrounds. I could just as easily abhor you as want to deal with you. There's no means by which to express that. |
I don't mind people asking, but I'm usually on a TF so I just tell them such.
The ones I don't like are the attempts at sneaky reverse invites.
-> Want to join my team?
<- Sorry. I'm already on one. The names that aren't in white are already on a team.
-> Can I join yours then?
<- No.
-> Why?
<- I'm on a task force.
-> ...