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this remains my assessment of elm/sd leveling.|
Originally Posted by Nemo_Utopian
normal leveling up till 37,when both nukes are fully slotted.
after that amazing.harvest lucks and go to town nuking everything in sight.i went from 37-40 in a flash,nuking freaks in crey's folly.after that i did eight man missions against carnival of shadows(though i did keep bosses turned off).was shocked when i got the illusionist badge so fast,had to go back and do the rest of the prerequisite's for the archmage accolade. |
nothing special one way or the other early on,but mid thirties on should go in a flash
This thread is all good and well but isn't SC in for a nerf dropping its Damage by half to three feet then to 1/5 for the remaining area. Wont this change the farming equation back in the favor or the other builds ?
"if you ever get offered a burger from a clown and its not ronald mcdonald don�t eat it, I learnt that the hard way"
yeah, it's in for a nerf, don't know the exact numbers, but Castle has said flat out that it is overperforming by a lot
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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It wasn't THAT huge of a nerf, and he didn't say that he would nerf it. He just gave numbers for what he had originally intended the power to do vs. what it was actually doing, then ran off with a migraine. I'm personally expecting a nerf eventually. This will affect farming. How much remains to be seen.
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Originally Posted by Borris_Black
This thread is all good and well but isn't SC in for a nerf dropping its Damage by half to three feet then to 1/5 for the remaining area. Wont this change the farming equation back in the favor or the other builds ?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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wish i could remember the thread offhand, but iirc, he said to expect a nerf in the future.
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Originally Posted by Werner
It wasn't THAT huge of a nerf, and he didn't say that he would nerf it. He just gave numbers for what he had originally intended the power to do vs. what it was actually doing, then ran off with a migraine. I'm personally expecting a nerf eventually. This will affect farming. How much remains to be seen.
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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here is what Castle said|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
wish i could remember the thread offhand, but iirc, he said to expect a nerf in the future.
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Good catch. I was looking at the original power, as I designed it, rather than the reworked version that was done later. For scrappers, it is scale 3.6 on the Minion_Pet table, which is a far cry from the scale 1.4 on the Minion_Pet table I originally designed for it. I vaguely remember someone (Synapse? Sunstorm? I'd have to dig into check in notes to see) asking me if they could update it to include AT Mods in the damage scales and saying yes. Hmm...yeah, ok. I can very easily see what happened here. Shield Charge when released was set for a scale 1.7 damage to all targets within 20' of impact, with 0.7 scale bonus within 3' of impact. When the change to allow AT scaling was made, the bonus damage was rolled into the overall damage, for a scale of 2.4 to all targets in a 20' radius. At the same time, instead of have Brutes getting a mod of 0.75 applied, they were treated as the base. So, instead of: Brutes 3' scale 1.8, 20' scale 1.275 Tankers 3' scale 2.04, 20' 1.445 Scrappers 3' scale 2.7, 20' scale 1.9125 We get: Brute 20' scale 2.4 Tanker 20' scale 2.712 Scrapper 20' scale 3.6 That REALLY sucks. |
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You're right. I did use .85 instead of .8 for the math. I always think of tankers having a .85 mod for some reason. I've been making that same mistake for years. Thankfully, the game applies the mods instead of me having to pre-calculate things, so it's not as bad as it COULD be. FWIW, nothing is going to be done about this for now. It's too big and widespread of an issue for me to unilaterally decide on how to approach it. I'll give folks a heads up on what is decided as soon as I know. |
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
Nice to see they never test code changes. One use of Shield Charge would have shown the issue.
If they nerf shield charge back before to the levels where they put the AT modifiers back in, it will *still* be a viable farming build.
My fire/shield can kill effectively with FSC and fireball without touching shield charge, and I was farming with her even before shield charge got buffed. To me that was gravy.
The only thing it will mean for me is the application of perhaps one more AoE after shield charge which is honestly no big deal.
The effect of any nerf to shield charge is going to effect efficiency not viability. It's not going to "wreck" the build.
Can ELM/FA out damage ELM/SD when the scrapper is completely IO'd out?
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My guess is no. There is no way I can think of that blazing aura + fiery embrace can keep up with AAO and shield charge, all other things being equal.
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Originally Posted by talzyon
Can ELM/FA out damage ELM/SD when the scrapper is completely IO'd out?
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I have to disagree with elec/shield being the fastest farmer. Yes it does phenomenal burst damage. But the cooldown kills it. I feel as if my Spines/Invuln out performs elec/shield by a long shot. I also dont think the secondary you use with spines matters. If youre jumping above the mob to use your Throw spines correctly, then your second damage aura wont really matter. I would be willing to run the same map on the same settings against an elec/shield and im confident i would finish first. Spines/***** > Elec/Shield for farming more than 1 mob.
For +0/x8 diff, I'm changing my vote to Claws/FA.
You don't need massive mitigation at +0. You just need enough. FA would provide "enough." Then you get Followup, Fiery Embrace, Blazing Aura, Spin, Eviscerate.
Kill speed will be obscene.
Be well, people of CoH.
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On a perma Hasten or at least very high recharge build, that cooldown isn't all that long, and you have two nukes to swap back and forth between, and you have other AoE. I'm not big into farming, but I think that recharge would make a huge difference for Electric/Shield's farming speed.
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Originally Posted by SuchANewb
I have to disagree with elec/shield being the fastest farmer. Yes it does phenomenal burst damage. But the cooldown kills it. I feel as if my Spines/Invuln out performs elec/shield by a long shot. I also dont think the secondary you use with spines matters. If youre jumping above the mob to use your Throw spines correctly, then your second damage aura wont really matter. I would be willing to run the same map on the same settings against an elec/shield and im confident i would finish first. Spines/***** > Elec/Shield for farming more than 1 mob.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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First off, welcome to the forums. I hope you'll find it an enjoyable experience. Getting into debates sometimes is what makes the forums in general, and the scrapper forum in particular, interesting and engaging.|
Originally Posted by SuchANewb
I have to disagree with elec/shield being the fastest farmer. Yes it does phenomenal burst damage. But the cooldown kills it. I feel as if my Spines/Invuln out performs elec/shield by a long shot. I also dont think the secondary you use with spines matters. If youre jumping above the mob to use your Throw spines correctly, then your second damage aura wont really matter. I would be willing to run the same map on the same settings against an elec/shield and im confident i would finish first. Spines/***** > Elec/Shield for farming more than 1 mob.
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The one thing you should know about this particular forum is that people will be quick to call you on something if you're stating an opinion either based on limited experience or misinformation.
With that said, I don't think you've experienced what a fully IO'ed electric/shield can really do. Based on your experience, I'm sure your spines/invuln would seem superior. However, I can assure you that your assumption about cooldowns is incorrect.
I threw this together quickly this morning as a demo. I'm not thrilled about the quality of the video and the fact the sound seems to be messed up, but it will serve our purposes well enough.
http://www.wegame.com/watch/fell-fen...eldsoul-brute/
That's my electric/shield/soul brute. Pay attention to how fast shield charge and lightning rod are available. One or the other, most times both, are available every spawn. By the time, I've moved onto the next group, herded them a bit (both to soak up AAO and to maximize number of targets), the nukes are available. I'm running at around 60-80% fury through the mission.
Bear in mind that scrapper shield charge does *more* damage than what my brute can do. And would wipe out entire groups with one application.
It's a demo and I used whatever settings I happen to be on which is +1/x8/no bosses (purple farming settings).
Having played for 4 years and experienced most AT's, I have to say Elec/Shield scrapper is certainly the best farmer at this point. At +2 x8 I'm raking in a fortune, thanks entirely to Fury Flechette's 'very expensive' build. Superb recharge, unbeatable damage, excellent defense. Just waiting for that elusive and ridiculously expensive 'Gladiator's Armor' enh to pop into my WW shopping basket to complete the build.
Muchos Gracias, Fury.
So...
Returning player, going to make my level 41 Spines/Dark my MA farm/ebil marketing character. What build should I be using for this? I have no problem using generic IOs then overwriting them as I build sets.
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I'd say aim for around 25% melee defense and as much recharge and recovery as you can get. Slotting for passive regeneration would mostly be wasteful due to having Dark Regeneration.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Occult
So...
Returning player, going to make my level 41 Spines/Dark my MA farm/ebil marketing character. What build should I be using for this? I have no problem using generic IOs then overwriting them as I build sets. |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
What about Claw/SR, Spin does pretty nice AoE and is up pretty fast "What if a Armagandon proc is Spin would it be good? "
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You mean two spawns every 30. Personally I have two EL/SD builds. One is a scrapper and the other is the equivalent tank. I dont use any maps with "perfect spawns" There is always a couple on the outskirts I have to talk into getting a bit cozy. It takes a few seconds to get their attention and by that time the bosses I dragged from the last spawn are already on me. Dragging leftover spawn to me is a very viable way to keep active and keep the xp per hour/minute high. TS works way better then most folks would think it does. I use it to soften up bosses especially if my two nukes are not up. (I dont have any +recharge slotted yet)|
Originally Posted by Silas
t Aliana, That is exactly my point. If you're dragging stuff around to take advantage of the recharge times you are limited by the recharge times. You can be far faster around a map bound by a 5-7second recharge (FSC, Footstomp) than 2 26 second ones.
That would give you much higher constant damage (more competetive with Footstomp/FSC) as well as not being huge overkill on the minions/lts. You're also much less restricted by the recharges, as you're only waiting about 13 seconds between nukes rather than the full 26. Killing a spawn every 15-20 seconds (nuke + clean-up) is much, much better than one spawn every 30. Edit: aaaand all this talking about it is making me want an elec/sd. Noooooo |
However this debate over which is faster/better for farming is totally pointless if you dont have the numbers to back it up. Whatever happened to herostats? Doesn't it still work? Ultimately only damage per hour or minute is going to mean anything.
Then all we have to consider is that some of us are more passive farmers who get a snack, answer the phone, check on the kids, get a drink of water. While others are more focused and intense not letting anything interrupt them. It doesnt take a genius to figure out who is going to have the most damage per second.
Another point that should be clarified by people bragging how fast and easy something is , is to explain what they are actually farming at. +4 spawned for 8 is much different then +1 spawned for 8 or even +0 spawned for 8. Even con minions and lt's will be gone(mostly) in one LR. Based on my experiance that is the only way you are going to get away with one nuke per 8 man spawn. I usually run +1 or +2 spawned for 6 or 8. I will double nuke two groups spawned for 8 all the time. I am over my aggro limit and over the limit for what my first nuke can hit. By the second nuke and TS im down to bosses and a few lucky LT's.
I haven't used herostats in a long time so not sure what my damage by time is but its decent compared to the other farms ive assisted on.
Now if I could just run as fast on +4's as that plant/kin I ran with the other day id have it made.
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Duo with an emp if you can or other buffer with a heal. Even at low levels once you get TS you can do pretty good on a small farm just the two of you. |
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
DO IT! you know you want to! Its worth it, besides, a simple elec/shield you can still farm yourself even if on only +1s its still worth it and you can build up your cash fast. Heck even duoing with a friend you'll be able to do a lot.
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Soloing you just rely on converting stuff to purples to keep your defense up. only LB and DE can really mess you up but thats mostly higher levels.
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No it's more like "her plant kin does better!"
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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Reading breifly through this thread I still stand by this statment. I've yet to meet a full built electric/shield scrapper who wasn't drooling over how powerful shield charge + Lighting rod actually is compared with anything else they'd ever played.
Try this question: Has anyone out there built an elec/shield scrapper up completely and then said.. ."nah... my __/___ does better?" |
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Bleh.. Im probably going to regret not reading the rest of the thread first BUT, why would I need SO acc slotted? I never use it without Buildup. Generally buildup provides enough tohit for what Im doing. 3 damage 3recharge in SC 3 recharge in hasten and 3 recharge in BU.
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Originally Posted by Chaos_String
Just to stop you here for a moment: in an SO build, the enhancement values you're specifying for Shield Charge leave no room for accuracy enhancement.
Not that I disagree with your line of reasoning; I also think Shield Charge is more powerful than a damage aura. I'm just trying to keep it real. |
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I hadn't heard that.. But it makes complete sense. It has to be nerfed because players liked it. Everything the devs dont like is overpowered. The devs dont like popular builds. Both my cousins quit playing because builds they spent a lot of time working on got nerfed one way or the other. The devs dont care because to them players quitting can be mitigated by figuring out clever ways to get more players to join.|
Originally Posted by Borris_Black
This thread is all good and well but isn't SC in for a nerf dropping its Damage by half to three feet then to 1/5 for the remaining area. Wont this change the farming equation back in the favor or the other builds ?
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Castle is a prime example of a dishonest person. He lies a lot. When shields was about to be released live from test, I doubt he said, "Well shield charge is way overpowered but we are going to release it anyway so people can see how cool it is then we will cut its throat later"
It works the way it was designed to and Castle knew how it worked then when they fully tested it.
Personally this is the kind of thing that can really makes me unhappy with the game. The devs roam around nerfing peoples work of art till its subpar or average. With many excuses thrown in. I think reality is they want to force people to make new builds.
I have vented, you may have been joking though history says you aren't. People may be inclined to flame. Don't bother. I wont be back to read it.
The next thread should be, "What farming build is safest from being nerfed."
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Well darn it was working and then it just changed itself to overperforming. I bet the devs wish powers they create would quit doing that.. Must be a gremlin running around in their code.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
yeah, it's in for a nerf, don't know the exact numbers, but Castle has said flat out that it is overperforming by a lot
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However, less noticeable at 52 and then very noticeably at 53-54, the telenukes prove just how incredibly ridiculous they are. Spines/fire at full fulcrum has slowed down, but it hardly even phases a elec/shield, the higher base damage means it scales much higher up with each +%damage and of course shields usually have the highest applicable damage buff (since FE is down half the spawns). Both LR and SC Also provide knockdown which means enemies often never get a shot off before they die, which is another a reason it scales up so well.
Playing with shields now and then just reminds me that shield charge/AaO is way overpowered compared to other the other secondaries (as far as AoE is concerned). The combination of a crashless nuke that is comparable to a blasters, and the huge damage buff, and the damage mitigating knockdown along with an already reasonable defense and even team buff is just over the top.
So I'm putting my vote in at spines/fire +0,+1 [] Elec/shield > +2
While I have never played an Elec/Shield Scrapper, I agree that for my Spines/Dark, the best results are +0/+1...which he is extemely efficient. I literally don't have to stop going from one group to another. It's fast, safe, and quite fun. Using occasional inspirations, I don't even need Dark Regeneration with mobs practically melting before me.
That said, I will say that leveling him was often a pain. Squishiness and endurance woes were rather constant until I had some good IO slotting. I've no idea how leveling an Elec/Shield is....although I'm tempted to try that combo now!