Best scrapper build for farming?

That challenge is really interesting information but unfortunately its all vendor pricing. You have to toss in roughly 5K~10K/minion (using 1 purple drop/3000 minions) for purple drops and another amount I have been too lazy to try and calculate for pool A and commons.

Reading breifly through this thread I still stand by this statment. I've yet to meet a full built electric/shield scrapper who wasn't drooling over how powerful shield charge + Lighting rod actually is compared with anything else they'd ever played.

Try this question:

Has anyone out there built an elec/shield scrapper up completely and then said.. ."nah... my __/___ does better?"

I've been in this argument before, AAO + shield charge is no more overpowered than AAO + a damage aura would be. the damage aura is consistent, where shield charge is burst. Not available every group until you get mega recharge, or are in general killing too slowly.

Now, due to the larger radius and target cap, and fact that, it uses build up more efficiently than a damage aura would, it just pulls ahead, but its nowhere NEAR the big gap that you are mentioning overall.

Shield charge, is in no way overpowered. If you ran the numbers, instead of just looking "ooo boom pretty" you'd see that, hence why it was just re-aligned to provide proper damage for the scrapper and on a small note tanker versions. Its right where it should be right now.

That's not what Katten is saying, but I'll take that argument.

1/

Assuming the best case scenario for damage auras and worst case scenario for Shield Charge, that is, running on SOs with no recharge bonuses or Hasten [edit : note as Chaos String pointed out below, this is only true for +0/+1 foes, over that SC needs accuracy slotting. That means I'll also have to go over all values and multiply by 0.95 for maximum tohit chance.]

Blazing Aura (highest damaging damage aura) does 13.76 base damage every 2 seconds, or 6.88 base damage per second, in a 8 feet radius and hits at most ten targets. Assuming a +297% damage buff from full AaO, damage slotting and Build Up averaged to +22% damage (46s recharge with 3 recharge SOs), that's 20.43 damage per second to one target.

Max is 10.
Total damage : 20.43 * 10 * 0.95 = 194.1 per second.


Shield Charge does 200.2 base damage with a 90 second recharge, in a 20 feet radius and hits at most sixteen targets. Its animation time adjusted for server ticks is 1.716s.

With +95% recharge in it, that's 200.2/(46 + 1.716) = 4.2 base damage per second. Assuming a +375% damage buff from full AaO, +95% damage slotting and using BU with SC (same timer), that's 15.75 damage per second to one target.

Max is 16.
Total damage : 15.75 * 16 * 0.95 = 239.4 per second.

That's right, in pure damage Shield Charge is better than damage auras with SOs, in a scenario where damage auras would be in the same set as AaO and would have ten targets in range at all time. That means no travel time at all and nothing at more than 8 feet, ever, compared to SC which only needs the targets in range for a few seconds every 46. That also means for Blazing Aura you'd have to have new mobs jumping in everytime the previous mobs die, otherwise the damage figures would be lower.

Again for emphasis : this is the absolute best case scenario for Blazing Aura. Such conditions actually CAN'T happen in real gameplay for Blazing Aura ; we're comparing theorycraftland Blazing Aura to real CoH gameplay SC, and SC still does ~23% more damage. We're not considering the AoE KD SC gets, we're not considering the greater radius SC has, it's just pure damage and SC wins. Period.

[Edit : Against +2s/+3s, SC needs one Accuracy SO to stay at 95% tohit with BU ; removing one damage SO, as removing recharge SOs would decrease the damage more than that due to the absence of Hasten.

Final damage : 4.2 * 3.42 * 16 * 0.95 = 218.3

Much closer to the hypothetical BA, but still significantly better.

[Against +4s, two Accuracy SOs ; down to one damage SO, as with BU and AaO it's still more efficient than removing recharge.]

Final damage : 4.2 * 3.09 * 16 * 0.95 = 197.2

"Ahah", I hear you say. "SC isn't that much better than BA afterall".

Well, yes and no. We're talking about hypothetical BA fueled by AaO that hits 10 targets at all time in a 8' radius, and against +4s... Oh, look at that. BA can't keep a 95% tohit chance against +4s on SOs.

39% chance to hit base, goes to 76% with 3 accuracy SOs.
Total damage : 20.43 * 10 * 0.76 = 155.3

Still far below alright. /Edit]




2/

Now using IOed out values, still under the impossible assumption that Blazing Aura will have ten targets in range at all times. Assuming Hasten is a few seconds away from perma, giving SC and BU an averaged 30s recharge time, with +15% damage bonus from sets.

Blazing Aura : 6.88
Damage mod : 1 (base) + 0.95 (enhancements) + 0.33 (BU on a 30s timer) + 0.80 (maxed AaO) + 0.15 (set bonuses) = 3.23
Final damage = 6.88 * 3.23 * 10 = 222.2 per second.

Shield Charge : 200.2 / (30 + 1.716) = 6.31
Damage mod : 1 (base) + 0.95 (enhancements) + 1 (BU) + 0.80 (maxed AaO) + 0.15 (set bonuses) = 3.9
Final damage = 6.31 * 3.9 * 16 = 393.7 per second.

Best case scenario for Blazing Aura when comparing IOed out builds, SC does ~77% more damage.

--

That should be enough, for that particular argument. Now I'm just going to run numbers based on my own experience, playstyle and datamining, which can be completely different for other people so I'm not using this as a data point.


3/

Same IOed out values as above, assuming "realistic" situations for me :
- Blazing Aura hits 5 targets on average, as opposed to the potential max being 10.
- Shield Charge hits 12 targets on average, as opposed to the potential max being 16. AaO still gets all 10 targets.
- Travel time takes 10% of the total time (killing groups in 27 seconds, taking 3 seconds to go to the next group, for example). That's time during which BA doesn't do damage.

Blazing Aura : 6.88
Damage mod : 1 (base) + 0.95 (enhanc) + 0.33 (BU 30s) + 0.15 (set bonuses) + 0.41 (Fiery Embrace on a 60s timer) = 3.51
Final : 6.88 * 3.51 * 5 * 0.9 (10% of the time is spent traveling) = 108.63 damage per second.

SC : 6.31
Damage mod : 3.9 (same as before, nothing changes in that regard)
Final : 6.31 * 3.9 * 12 = 295.3 damage per second.

Making SC do 272% as much damage as Blazing Aura over time.

--


In conclusion, SC is stronger. Even if you don't consider the KD. Even if you don't consider the radius. Even if you use SOs. Even if you're comparing it to a hypothetical powerset that has AaO on top of a damage aura, in a hypothetical situation where that damage aura hits ten targets at all times in a 8' radius.

When you actually consider the KD, the greater radius, the advantage of burst over DPS here and the fact that SC is in the Shield powerset, yes, SC is most definitely overpowered.

Yawn.

Tanked on my ElM/SD from 21 to 27. Soloed +2/x8 from 27 to 47. All of which on SOs/common IOs except for a Steadfast, all of that was easier than on my other alts (played all secondaries to 50 except DA) on SOs/common IOs save for invulnerability.

You gotta love the back-and-forth on Shield.

"OMG Shield Charge isn't OPed you just look at the big damage numbers ingame but math shows it's different"
*proves SC is actually stronger*
"OMG Shield isn't that good you just look at spreadsheets ingame it's different"
...

If you ask me, my experience tells me Shield is far, far above any other secondary for most situations I'll encounter playing. I use numbers to objectively support what I already experienced and to provide a basis for discussion with other people, not to make up for a supposed lack of experience with the powerset.

The most obvious thing showing something might be too good in the Shield world is the amount of people vehemently arguing against the idea, though.

Just to stop you here for a moment: in an SO build, the enhancement values you're specifying for Shield Charge leave no room for accuracy enhancement.

Not that I disagree with your line of reasoning; I also think Shield Charge is more powerful than a damage aura. I'm just trying to keep it real.

You're also not factoring slows, the fact of what happens when SC is recharged before you need to use it again, and when going to another mob having the mob half dead before SC is recharged, meaning you wait till the next mob to use it as well. Meanwhile, BA is working 100% of the time, even for the stragglers that are still alive, its still helping out. I didn't say SC was less than a damage aura, but the difference is nowhere near as large as you "prove" it to be.

You're also making the same mistake someone else did in your last scenario, this is regarding a damage aura, vs SC, you HAVE to have AAO boosting the damage aura as well as SC, that's what the argument is.

As mentioned, you do need serious IO investments for shield. Its part of the game balance, with just SOs shield is seriously lacking IMO. 21.25% base defense, with 17.5% resistance and 19.5% max hp with no self heal is an extremely weak defense set. ITs only with IOs that it even becomes playable outside of teaming or wretched use of inspirations. Granted if you IO it out its pretty good, but that fact right there, is the whole reason where it gets all the publicity, AFTER its IOd out, to which many other sets can say the same thing.

You mean during travel time ?

Sure must be nice to have a 800' radius on BA, but on my version of CoH it's only 8'.

You're also making the same mistake someone else did everytime I make a long post with numbers, they quote it while not even reading it.

Quoting myself with some emphasis added :

That should be enough, for that particular argument. Now I'm just going to run numbers based on my own experience, playstyle and datamining, which can be completely different for other people SO I'M NOT USING THIS AS A DATA POINT.

And again, I played it with SOs. I tanked with SOs. I tanked before SOs actually (level 21). To say it requires IOs to be playable is a flat-out lie.

"Wretched use of inspirations" ? What is that, losing the argument so you switch to a new excuse you didn't use before ? I use inspirations as they drop, just like I do with other powersets. I had a better and easier experience while on SOs/common IOs with Shield than with other powersets.

No no, what i was saying, was we were comparing SC to a damage aura, so AAO has to be present for both in all situations.

As to the SO question, With no self heal, a very latent click res/hp power, and lower DDR, even with tough/weave shields is pretty weak on survival. And at that point you are sacrificing so much to get tough/weave as well. That's why positional based sets DO get the biggest boost from IOs, cause they are much weaker in comparison prior. This was part of the devs way of not so much fixing the sets, but creating a band-aid for the problem that will suffice most people.

Well, VERY minimally, during herding time but i'm not even talking about that. What I was referring to was in all situations of melee combat, which includes bosses, tough lts that survived etc, where you would certainly not waste shield charge on them, a damage aura would continue to be useful and help move things along.


Which sounds like "all is heresay to what I think, ignore the data I just presented"

fail, we were comparing SC to a damage aura, IE as if to replace SC with one or vice versa. When comparing two powers, which is what the whole discussion is about, all outside sources are equal, in other words, both would have, or have not, AAO. If you wanted to compare SETS, you could say that, but we are not, we're comparing POWERS.

Your comparison is moot. IE, pointless, petty and useless, like your snarky tone.

And FYI, the topic is "Best scrapper build for farming." So regardless of whatever you've decided "the whole discussion is about," the powersets and their synergies, internal and external, are relevant to the topic.

I answered your argument with the first two points. I specifically said so. I then specifically said I was going to run other numbers for my own use, and that I wasn't using them to support my point in this conversation. The reasons I posted the third set of numbers is because it can eventually give insight to other people who have the same playstyle as me, and other people can eventually give me insight if I'm making mistakes in my calculations.

I mean, again, what ? Are you seriously trying to handwave the detailed math proving you're wrong after you've asked for detailed math to prove you wrong by pretending you're dense and focusing on something that is irrelevant to the argument simply because it is on the same post, despite a disclaimer clearly stating it isn't meant to be included in that argument ? You're not stupid so stop trying to pretend you are, you're embarrassing yourself by doing so. Stick to saying you disagree with the math for X and X reasons (i.e. such as slows not being considered) rather than playing dumb with semantics.

Not the message that was being replied to though, regardless of post name.

I'll restate exactly what i was saying to clear this up for you, you said:

What I was saying, was yes, shield charge IS better. But what I was saying on that note, is its not nearly that big of a difference. You have to factor in gameplay. You might not have full enemies in a damage aura, yes, that can still happen with SC as well (thankfully less likely though) However, the damage aura is working in all melee instances, and there are vast times when you don't use SC right as its recharged, regardless of whatever recharge you can achieve from it, due to that fact that depending on the mob-fights, the timing is off. So you are either left not using it until you get to a group worth using it (ie even just waiting for a herd etc). You can also factor in procs in damage auras, as they get much better use in a damage aura. I'd still probably say regardless that SC is better, but i'm saying it greys the line that much more.

Also a major factor that is left out of the eqation is that Fire is a lot less resisted than Smashing.