Tell me how it was grandpa...
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2009-11-19 12:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Probably a bit of both. |
Originally Posted by Hallowed
I'm not sure if this is throwing BaBs under the bus (again) or giving him credit...
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Here's some of the things that I wrote up that didn't didn't make the cut (good or bad, you decide):
- Splitting the reward up using the soon to be added invention system, so that you had to be there for the whole raid to get all of the components to make an HO of your choice. Idea here was to discourage people from just showing up at the end for the reward. That got axed long before the details could be hashed out
- Originally, the raid was designed to instance at 75 and cap at 100 players. That got lowered by programming to 40/50 for server performance reasons (particularly for Masterminds).
- Originally designed as a co-op raid, with both sides having access to The Hive. That got veto'd in lieu of impending Rikti War Zone/Invasions and stealing some of the co-op thunder from them. That in turn prompted The Abyss being built.
- Number of GMs needed to spawn Hami was much lower. The basic idea for this was that players could trigger a raid rather than waiting around for Hamidon's spawn timer. It also gave people something to do rather than waiting around for "minimum" number of raiders to show up.
- I don't believe Essence of the Earth (hambrosia) was my idea. I can't remember if that was added before or during beta. But that in turn prompted Monster Island being built and futzed with the GM/spawn formula even more.
- More blooms than asked for. Technically, it's the maximum (I wrote down "2-3", they scripted 3 plus the starting bloom...so 4 total). Total time-wise, 4 blooms ended up being about where we wanted it to be but in a much more repetitive way.
Me personally writing up a re-design aside, Hamidon was going to change and change radically for Issue 9. And if there's one thing I've learned in the time I've been here it's that any change will be perceived by some people as a good change, others as a bad change, and most as the wrong thing to mess with entirely.
The revamped raid is better in some ways of course, the number cap certainly did cut down on epic lag, for example.
It's also a tad less fun to a lot of the old raiding groups, but you can't please everyone, as you're acutely aware.
PS, how are those new alternate War Mace animations coming? ;]
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Your forum avatar is epic sir.
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Originally Posted by Acemace
The revamped raid is better in some ways of course, the number cap certainly did cut down on epic lag, for example.
It's also a tad less fun to a lot of the old raiding groups, but you can't please everyone, as you're acutely aware. PS, how are those new alternate War Mace animations coming? ;] |
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This made me laugh.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
And if there's one thing I've learned in the time I've been here it's that any change will be perceived by some people as a good change, others as a bad change, and most as the wrong thing to mess with entirely.
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Yep, I'd have to agree that 1.77Mb of avatar is pretty epic in size...
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Originally Posted by Cthulhufan
Your forum avatar is epic sir.
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Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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That's something I never knew, and functionally speaking, I'd have to say that is one of the killers right there. It may be taking as long as you'd intended, but having to do the same thing 4 times running (along with repeatedly lowering Hamidon's health bar to trigger the spawns) is probably the most disappointing aspect technically.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
[*]More blooms than asked for. Technically, it's the maximum (I wrote down "2-3", they scripted 3 plus the starting bloom...so 4 total). Total time-wise, 4 blooms ended up being about where we wanted it to be but in a much more repetitive way.[/LIST]
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If Hami were ever to be revisited, I'd say cut out one wave, or make 2 of the waves somehow different whether it be mito configuration or a Giant Monster ambush, or something.
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| Also, one big thing that never gets enough credit for the change in perception, all of this happened at the same time that Invention Origin enhancements were added to the game. So it's difficult to say how the new raids would be perceived if they were still giving out the end-all, be-all, best enhancements in the game. |
If the reward for the raid was somehow special enough, I feel people would come back and raid on all servers. (maybe make HOs, Hydra-Os, and Titan-Os into nonfading and nonscaling enhancers or guarantee a Purple drop for completing Hami or something).
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I full heartedly have to agree with everything you said here Lemur. Hami raids used to be the game's "Purples" and when IOs came out Hami felt rather pointless. purple recipes would feel like the more suited reward than the current. one might argue that it would lower the market value on the purps in game now but tossing that to the "market analyzers" out there I think that would actually be a good thing for the market in general.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
This is something that has been brought up a lot. HOs were already being marginalized by the fact that sHOs had a much lower barrier to entry. The LRSF and STF were easier to set up and run. The population as a whole just wasn't willing to listen no matter how much the Pro Raid folks told them that a Hami Raid could take the same amount of time and net HOs for a lot more people. Inventions just pushed the raid even farther into the shadows. The drop table was the same as the STF/LRSF, or the merits were "not enough" to a lot of people.
If the reward for the raid was somehow special enough, I feel people would come back and raid on all servers. (maybe make HOs, Hydra-Os, and Titan-Os into nonfading and nonscaling enhancers or guarantee a Purple drop for completing Hami or something). |
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I'd be happy if they just made it where Hami raids allowed you to choose which Hami-O you got while STFs / LRSFs still gave random ones. That way people would have incentive to raid but could still (eventually) get the same rewards from TFs if they preferred (or were on a low population server with few raids).
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I'm not a market analyst, but I've been advocating Hamidon dropping purple recipes as a "solution" since... well. About the same time purple recipes entered the game. |
Originally Posted by Du Hast
I full heartedly have to agree with everything you said here Lemur. Hami raids used to be the game's "Purples" and when IOs came out Hami felt rather pointless. purple recipes would feel like the more suited reward than the current. one might argue that it would lower the market value on the purps in game now but tossing that to the "market analyzers" out there I think that would actually be a good thing for the market in general.
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Also: BaB's: can we go on blaming Jack for the final implementation of the I9 Hamidon raid then? I'd really hate to take that off of my list of things to illogically rant at a single person about list :P
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53 merits in an hour is a substantially compelling reason for me to attend.|
Originally Posted by Silver_Streak_NA
So, why have I never participated in raids post-i9? Well, I keep meaning to, just to try out the experience, but there's no real compelling reason to do it anymore!
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Because of this, I obviously am not fond of the idea of that being lowered unless the reward drop that comes with it is very impressive. Despite some HOs still being desirable and valuable (I still use them in my high-end IO builds), the drop weighting would have to change for me to want an automatic HO to meaningfully reduce my merits.
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American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I don't think having Hamidon raids drop purples is reasonable. There's a huge jump in power between HOs and purples, because HOs don't grant set bonuses, and the set bonuses are the reason the overwhelming majority of people who want purples want them. The only time someone would not think purples were a big deal compared to HOs is that they wouldn't benefit meaningfully from the bonuses people look to purples for, such as +recharge.
I don't disagree that HOs languish in a very niche place that causes very few people to seek them out (which in turn is making the ones with consistent demand very expensive). I do think this could use improvement. I don't think purples are the fix for that. (Indeed, it would make it worse - who would choose an HO over a purple?) I am not fond of the idea that purples need to be "easy" or even just "easier" to obtain. There is a category of gamer who likes to have hard to obtain things to chase after, and I think purples are for them. I say leave that be.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Probably a bit of both.
Here's some of the things that I wrote up that didn't didn't make the cut (good or bad, you decide):
Me personally writing up a re-design aside, Hamidon was going to change and change radically for Issue 9. And if there's one thing I've learned in the time I've been here it's that any change will be perceived by some people as a good change, others as a bad change, and most as the wrong thing to mess with entirely. |
But you can judge the effectiveness of a change by results, and hami raids became almost non-existant after the change. I wish the devs would be less stubborn in some instances and be willing to realize when a change is clearly for the worse and be willing to reverse themselves.
Why not set up a zone that runs the hami event in the old style, even if it's only temporary to determine if it drums up more interest and gets played more than the new style? And if you only want to go with one style, then why not go with the style that gets more play? Granted, the old version wasn't perfect, but again, if it gets more play, that would certainly indicate a preference in your customer base, and one that would benefit everyone if you catered to it. I would argue for the same thing in regards to pvp, set up a duplicate alternate pvp zone with the old rules, even if it's just to determine which set of rules are preferred.
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The one change I was hoping for with the advent of IO's: Restoring HO's to the 50% enhancement they once had. IO sets could easily replace HO in strength plus the set bonuses. Also with ED, the 50% isn't quite as nasty as it once was.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Probably a bit of both.
Here's some of the things that I wrote up that didn't didn't make the cut (good or bad, you decide):
Me personally writing up a re-design aside, Hamidon was going to change and change radically for Issue 9. And if there's one thing I've learned in the time I've been here it's that any change will be perceived by some people as a good change, others as a bad change, and most as the wrong thing to mess with entirely. |
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Hold on, I disagree with this intensely.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
But you can judge the effectiveness of a change by results, and hami raids became almost non-existant after the change. I wish the devs would be less stubborn in some instances and be willing to realize when a change is clearly for the worse and be willing to reverse themselves.
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The old raid was composed of /follow + autofire. As long as the leaders showed up, no one else had to have more than about 2 brain cells to "contribute". This, and you walked away with one or more of the best enhancers in the game. (Or at least hoped you did, if you had certain powersets.)
They replaced this with something that actually requires more active participation, and you think it's a failure because less people showed up?
I hate to tell people this, but Hamidon raiding isn't hard in a mechanical sense. It's not like they replaced a beer drinking contest with a MENSA membership exam. The reason it's "hard" is that it requires people to pay attention and act like members of a team. It required people to learn new strategies, or at least listen to (and follow the instructions of) people who'd already figured it out.
How hard does it sound for a Tanker to go to a particular mito and taunt it from a distance? Yet people fail this instruction time and again. They go afk. They taunt in the mito's face, meaning its splash damage is all over the other people who come to defeat it in melee. The new Hamidon is "hard" because it requires more than two brain cells, and not eveyone is willing to devote more than that to the activity. Combine that with drama kings and queens who turn leading raids into some sort of social ranking contest (and let that spill into other arenas like forum flamewars) and you have all the pieces for people to throw up their arms and go run some TF instead. At least that only takes 8 people, right?
The devs did the right thing. They took an activity that was really boring and easy in a really dumb sense, and made it into something that takes a wee bit of attention to detail to do right. Its not on their heads that huge swaths of people don't have that attention to spare, and would rather go do something "easier". I disagree completely that they should always cater to that sort of mindset.
I rag on the devs for quite a few of their attempts at making things "difficult", but the ones I hate are the ones that either you can't do anything about, or for which the solutions are completely metagame, such as bringing a MM and Stalker to the BSF just because they get temp powers that make the SF so much easier. Hamidon is the right kind of "difficulty" - it mostly just takes paying attention, and I think they did an excellent job of making just every AT have something worth doing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think your reasoning is sound here, but the reward for Hamidon needs a buff. Personally, I would do so by giving HOs themselves attributes that are different than purples but still very good.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't think having Hamidon raids drop purples is reasonable. There's a huge jump in power between HOs and purples, because HOs don't grant set bonuses, and the set bonuses are the reason the overwhelming majority of people who want purples want them. The only time someone would not think purples were a big deal compared to HOs is that they wouldn't benefit meaningfully from the bonuses people look to purples for, such as +recharge.
I don't disagree that HOs languish in a very niche place that causes very few people to seek them out (which in turn is making the ones with consistent demand very expensive). I do think this could use improvement. I don't think purples are the fix for that. (Indeed, it would make it worse - who would choose an HO over a purple?) I am not fond of the idea that purples need to be "easy" or even just "easier" to obtain. There is a category of gamer who likes to have hard to obtain things to chase after, and I think purples are for them. I say leave that be. |
I would rescind the ancient nerf to HOs that lowered their 1.5x bonus (i.e. 1.5 x what an equivalent SO gives) to 1.0. I would also allow HOs to keep their bonus at all levels. Finally, I would allow some level of choice over HOs. Probably via making the drop from Hami some kind of token that you trade in for the HO you want.
The reason for the nerf to HOs (that the raid was considered too easy) relates to a raid that no longer exists. And it also doesn't take into account ED or Inventions which would minimize the impact of such a change.
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The 50-player cap is the reason why I don't do Hami anymore. Either the zone fills up too quickly and I can't get in, or at a client crash I restart the game and appear in The Hive 2 and am unable to rejoin. The day the game keeps track of what instance a character was in and puts me back there when I reconnect after a crash, I'll try Hami again. That, or suddenly enjoying 100% connection stability with the NCsoft servers, which just won't happen being 10,000 kilometers away.
Secondary reason is that it's just too darn repetitive. I enjoy the mini-raid in the Lady Grey TF a lot because there are no blooms, you just beat him up once and you're done. Two blooms would be good. Three might be okay. Four are really boring. Maybe if they were spiced up with monster ambushes to ease the repetitiveness of it; first mito bloom, crystal+rock monster ambush, second mito bloom, fungi+grass monster ambush, dead hami+bunch of hami buds. I actually miss the hami buds a lot, they were a fun bit to right on the big event was over.
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I'd agree with this, and here's a thought. Leave the Synthetic HO's from STF/RSF at the current levels and only boost the "genuine article" HO's back to the issue 4 levels. That gives incentive for running Hami instead of the STF/RSF.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I think your reasoning is sound here, but the reward for Hamidon needs a buff. Personally, I would do so by giving HOs themselves attributes that are different than purples but still very good.
I would rescind the ancient nerf to HOs that lowered their 1.5x bonus (i.e. 1.5 x what an equivalent SO gives) to 1.0. I would also allow HOs to keep their bonus at all levels. Finally, I would allow some level of choice over HOs. Probably via making the drop from Hami some kind of token that you trade in for the HO you want. The reason for the nerf to HOs (that the raid was considered too easy) relates to a raid that no longer exists. And it also doesn't take into account ED or Inventions which would minimize the impact of such a change. |
I'd much prefer increasing the zone cap to get back some of the feel of the old raids but a HO change would aid the fairly moribund event in gaining popularity.
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And then you're left wondering what to do with all the other surplus fingers.|
Originally Posted by Lady Arete
Can only speak from Union.
Since the new hamidon I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times there has been a Hamidon raid. |
I can see that Hami needed changing but the implemented change really did kill off a regular event on the EU servers (especially Union).
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't think having Hamidon raids drop purples is reasonable. There's a huge jump in power between HOs and purples, because HOs don't grant set bonuses, and the set bonuses are the reason the overwhelming majority of people who want purples want them. The only time someone would not think purples were a big deal compared to HOs is that they wouldn't benefit meaningfully from the bonuses people look to purples for, such as +recharge.
I don't disagree that HOs languish in a very niche place that causes very few people to seek them out (which in turn is making the ones with consistent demand very expensive). I do think this could use improvement. I don't think purples are the fix for that. (Indeed, it would make it worse - who would choose an HO over a purple?) I am not fond of the idea that purples need to be "easy" or even just "easier" to obtain. There is a category of gamer who likes to have hard to obtain things to chase after, and I think purples are for them. I say leave that be. |
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I think your reasoning is sound here, but the reward for Hamidon needs a buff. Personally, I would do so by giving HOs themselves attributes that are different than purples but still very good.
I would rescind the ancient nerf to HOs that lowered their 1.5x bonus (i.e. 1.5 x what an equivalent SO gives) to 1.0. I would also allow HOs to keep their bonus at all levels. Finally, I would allow some level of choice over HOs. Probably via making the drop from Hami some kind of token that you trade in for the HO you want. The reason for the nerf to HOs (that the raid was considered too easy) relates to a raid that no longer exists. And it also doesn't take into account ED or Inventions which would minimize the impact of such a change. |
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'd agree with this, and here's a thought. Leave the Synthetic HO's from STF/RSF at the current levels and only boost the "genuine article" HO's back to the issue 4 levels. That gives incentive for running Hami instead of the STF/RSF.
I'd much prefer increasing the zone cap to get back some of the feel of the old raids but a HO change would aid the fairly moribund event in gaining popularity. |
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Is server performance still limiting this to 50 or could it be extended upwards?|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
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And couldn't the Hami raid be made co-op now - since the thunder of introducing co-op has long since echoed into silence.
Upping the player zone limit could help entice back some of those that don't even try for fear of DC'ing midway and not being able to rejoin, and making it co-op would increase the potential pool of players on lesser populated servers.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
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And the ability to trigger the Hami spawn is possibly one of the best things about the changed Hami. Though on servers with low population it can be somewhat frustrating doing the Hambrosia farming and spawning Hami when still not sure if enough people will turn up to make a raid realistic.
Or at least: I remember that it used to be so - so long since a saw an EU raid...
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They became almost non-existent after the change, but the question you should be asking is is this BECAUSE of the change, or does it merely coincide with it. I can tell you for a fact that all the hypocrites who claimed they were into the raiding for the "fun" of it and absolutely, positively not for the rewards would have jumped ship if nothing happened to the raid at all, once equivalent or BETTER rewards became more easily available elsewhere.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
But you can judge the effectiveness of a change by results, and hami raids became almost non-existant after the change. I wish the devs would be less stubborn in some instances and be willing to realize when a change is clearly for the worse and be willing to reverse themselves.
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Yeah, yeah, I know some people did indeed enjoy the event for the event's sake. I dare say the BULK of the people arguing against the old reduction to the power of Hamidon enhancements were either fooling themselves or fooling us when they said this, however. Time and again I've heard the argument that something is SO MUCH FUN, yet the second something turns out to give better rewards, and the "fun" becomes a "grind" even though not a lot actually changed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I just want to add a comment for all the "new raid killed all interest on X server" people:
Please look at the bigger picture before you specifically blame the changes for killing interest. When old Hami became popular, it was largely because that was one of the only interesting and valuable things to do. This inflates the perceived "importance" of the old raid.
However by the time of I9 and the revision, there was more to do, and a lot more coming soon after, that began to sap people's attention. LRSF, STF, and the simple fact that ANY tf could now get your a recipe roll. That means every other piece of content got value added in the eyes of any 50 looking for something to do.
I beg you all to be completely honest with yourselves. I know on Pinnacle even before the change, we were raiding Hami less often. If you think about it hard, I expect you'll realize it was getting that way everywhere (not counting the surge of nostalgia raids right before the new issue).
Once inventions hit and people could do 2-4 Quick Katies, or a few Speeden runs in the same amount of time, can you really blame them for not wanting to spend 3hours on learning the new raid, in the hopes that in the times after that they'd get it down to an hour? Are you really going to keep blaming the raid for that?
Water runs downhill, and players are fickle. We as a playerbase have shown time and time again that when two options are put in front of us, we'll gorge on the one we see as easiest and most rewarding.
Yes, the raid has flaws. It requires attention and learning the first few times. With practice it's just as easy as anything else in the game. However the fact of that doesn't change that on the whole, people are lazy, and almost all the people who were good at organizing and motivating the general population to raid have moved on to games where that is rewarded with lots of different raids.
I'll always believe the flaws in the attitude of the community were a bigger contributor to the unpopularity of the new raid than any of the technical flaws of the raid itself.
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Agree totally... in general... |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I just want to add a comment for all the "new raid killed all interest on X server" people:
Please look at the bigger picture before you specifically blame the changes for killing interest. When old Hami became popular, it was largely because that was one of the only interesting and valuable things to do. This inflates the perceived "importance" of the old raid. [snip] I beg you all to be completely honest with yourselves. I know on Pinnacle even before the change, we were raiding Hami less often. If you think about it hard, I expect you'll realize it was getting that way everywhere (not counting the surge of nostalgia raids right before the new issue). Once inventions hit and people could do 2-4 Quick Katies, or a few Speeden runs in the same amount of time, can you really blame them for not wanting to spend 3hours on learning the new raid, in the hopes that in the times after that they'd get it down to an hour? Are you really going to keep blaming the raid for that? |
Though we european-server players never did raid as much as the tales from the US boards suggested you Americans did... And on Union and Defiant we hadn't been running regular successful raids for very long (maybe several months iirc).
Without the same size playerbase as some US servers and correspondingly fewer hardcore raiders we'd taken the time to learn the ropes and get a raid that worked...
The seperation of server lists coupled with very few (none that I can recall) players running both EU and US accounts meant that we didn't have anyone experienced in US raids - so our own limited trial and error and the odd US forum post/guide was all we had to go on.
But we did get there eventually. There was a period where Defiant and Union were in fairly regular, good natured competition and it was still never guaranteed that a raid would work.
There were a few attempts after the change - but they tended to end up as 5-7hrs of repeated death before it became clear that it wasn't going to work.
Sure it would probably have died a death (or at least become less popular) in time as newer challenges and rewards became popular, but I'm pretty darn sure that overnight the change made it nigh-on impossible for a small server population (isolated from the US population) with few hardcore raiders.
We could have got there eventually - but I don't think that our fairly casual players were enamoured by the prospect of spending 7hrs every week or fortnight not really knowing what they were doing, repeatedly faceplanting, and risking DCing out of the event and all with probbaly no reward at the end (other than experience of what didn't work).
With that scenario quickly being seen as the probable outcome the raids were bound to quickly die off once a critical mass of raiders couldn't be gathered.
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This is the exact reason I don't do Hamidon Raids anymore. I think the new version is vastly superior to the old version, but I don't like open content in general because I end up having to force my silver-age style heroes into teaming up with -STRYK.ER and Spicy McHooters to get the job done, which kills my immersion (I'm here for the multiplayer superhero game aspect, not the general MMO socializing aspect). The only thing that will motivate me to do that is unique rewards, and I generally won't be happy about it.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Also, one big thing that never gets enough credit for the change in perception, all of this happened at the same time that Invention Origin enhancements were added to the game. So it's difficult to say how the new raids would be perceived if they were still giving out the end-all, be-all, best enhancements in the game.
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So uh, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think you're right, and I think the new encounter is more fun, but as long as it takes more than 1 team of 8 to complete and I can obtain the rewards in other ways, I won't be doing it more than once every 6 months or so. I'd be happy with any changes you might make, including adding unique rewards, as long as people can sell those rewards on the market.
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