Tell me how it was grandpa...
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2009-11-19 12:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Ah, Masterminds. Is there anything we can't blame on you? |
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
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So perhaps some type of reward could be attached to each bloom? Even something token like 5 merits per bloom would make the repetitive process feel a little bit more satisfying.
"And texting? 'How R U?' Wow! English is just getting its [censored] kicked. In two generations, that's going to be on chalkboards. And do you know what you get from that? You don't get Ernest Hemingway."
- Henry Rollins
It has been at least several months since I can remember anyone even talking about Hami raiding on any of the public coordination channels in my home server (Victory). I would show up for one --- if only to bestow the EoEs sitting in my SG storage on people who were interested in sticking it out to the bitter end.
I've participated in the new versions once or twice. I never stayed until the end. They tend to drag on for hours as a result of coordinating the next assault on the blooms, with its requirements for specific characters to attack specific colors, and the need for massive coordination. After two or three hours, several raid wipes, and unreplaced attrition, my attention simply can't be sustained by the event. I will cede my spot in the hive to another.
Running short of EoEs has also been an issue when I've run it. You daren't leave the zone to buy more, either.
I think that some servers can get enough people together with the experience to know what they are doing and what they need to bring. Mine apparently does not have that. I could run two or three Statesman TFs in the time we spent sitting around, coordinating, wiping, and regrouping. If I want Hami-Os that's the way to get them. Actually raiding Hamidon is dull and inefficient.
(The time would depend on how long it takes to find the right Security Chief. But if you've been around long enough to remember the old Hami raid, killing Security Chiefs is its own reward.)
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
With no intent to impune the raiders on Victory, EoEs are mostly a crutch for inexperienced raiders, or raids where you can't get enough people, or Villain raids, where there isn't such a thing as Empathy/Regen Aura. If you pile enough people together and stack enough Regen auras on them, they don't need EoEs. If those people then go foth and own face on their respective mitos, then no one else needs massive Regen Auras once the initial wave of them wears off.
Note that you can achieve the same thing on villains with the use of Warburg Biological Nukes, but it's sort of onerous to expect people to come to raids with enough of those to emulate having 4+ empaths on deck. On the upside, the +damage buffs on the Bio Nukes helps significantly with the face owning of mitos.
Well, you know, except for the part where they don't have faces.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'd be happy to join a Victory Hami raid if one was planned when I could attend. Mind you, my 50 scrapper on Victory is SR, which I understand is not at its best against Hami. ^_^ On Virtue I usually run my regen scrapper, which is a defense set very well suited for Hami.
My experience with Hami is virtually all via scrappers, but I understand some of the concepts for what other ATs are doing. I think. I really ought to bring my tank and my troller to a couple of these so I get a more rounded picture of what they would be doing.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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This is a very important point - the change didn't happen in isolation. Suddenly the former 'best' reward in-game was replaced and the raid went from "show up and hit a target for a reward" to "you have to be actively involved". |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I just want to add a comment for all the "new raid killed all interest on X server" people:
Please look at the bigger picture before you specifically blame the changes for killing interest. When old Hami became popular, it was largely because that was one of the only interesting and valuable things to do. This inflates the perceived "importance" of the old raid. |
I remember lots of complaints about players who would start to flood the zone the closer the Hami got to defeat because they were just there for the Hami-O. It was very easy to be social from a place of complete safety, just waiting for the final few hit points to be taken off.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hold on, I disagree with this intensely.
The old raid was composed of /follow + autofire. As long as the leaders showed up, no one else had to have more than about 2 brain cells to "contribute". This, and you walked away with one or more of the best enhancers in the game. (Or at least hoped you did, if you had certain powersets.) They replaced this with something that actually requires more active participation, and you think it's a failure because less people showed up? I hate to tell people this, but Hamidon raiding isn't hard in a mechanical sense. It's not like they replaced a beer drinking contest with a MENSA membership exam. The reason it's "hard" is that it requires people to pay attention and act like members of a team. It required people to learn new strategies, or at least listen to (and follow the instructions of) people who'd already figured it out. How hard does it sound for a Tanker to go to a particular mito and taunt it from a distance? Yet people fail this instruction time and again. They go afk. They taunt in the mito's face, meaning its splash damage is all over the other people who come to defeat it in melee. The new Hamidon is "hard" because it requires more than two brain cells, and not eveyone is willing to devote more than that to the activity. Combine that with drama kings and queens who turn leading raids into some sort of social ranking contest (and let that spill into other arenas like forum flamewars) and you have all the pieces for people to throw up their arms and go run some TF instead. At least that only takes 8 people, right? The devs did the right thing. They took an activity that was really boring and easy in a really dumb sense, and made it into something that takes a wee bit of attention to detail to do right. Its not on their heads that huge swaths of people don't have that attention to spare, and would rather go do something "easier". I disagree completely that they should always cater to that sort of mindset. I rag on the devs for quite a few of their attempts at making things "difficult", but the ones I hate are the ones that either you can't do anything about, or for which the solutions are completely metagame, such as bringing a MM and Stalker to the BSF just because they get temp powers that make the SF so much easier. Hamidon is the right kind of "difficulty" - it mostly just takes paying attention, and I think they did an excellent job of making just every AT have something worth doing. |
"They replaced this with something that actually requires more active participation, and you think it's a failure because less people showed up?"
Yeah, if they create something in-game that rarely ever gets used, I'd definitely call that a failure. Especially if it replaces something that got used a lot more than the new creation.
Granted, other factors may be in play in terms of the massive drop off in hami-raids, like merits for example, and obviously there will be some who prefer the new raid style to the old one. And the devs might put the two versions out and they both might get equally low usage.
But again, if you put the two styles next to eachother, and more people play the old style, then it would benefit the game to provide what more players want, even if you don't prefer the old style. Why? Because the more players that play this game, the better for everyone.
Now to address your difficulty argument. Nothing in this game is rocket science. But clearly the new raids are more difficult to set up and run. Some people prefer the added difficulty, but judging by the massive drop off in play, I think it's safe to say these people, including yourself, are in the minority. If the devs want to play to the minority, that's up to them, but I don't think that's in the best interests of the game. And it's not some kind of mortal sin to prefer simplicity over complexity in a video game. The old raids weren't about 'leet skillz', they were about socializing, getting some loot and being part of the server 'community'. And yeah, they weren't perfect either, but again, they sure seemed to get a lot more play than the new style.
If you disagree that's fine. But I would hope we can all agree that the more people who play this game, the better it is for the game, for obvious reasons. And removing popular features and replacing them with less popular ones, will not be good for the game, for obvious reasons. My suggestion was to simply offer both styles and look at the results. If one ends up being massively more popular than the other, it would be flat out foolish to offer the less popular one, and eliminate the popular one.
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I've already acknowledged the possibilities you suggest. The only way to determine for certain which would be perferred overall is to put them next to eachother and see which one gets more play. That's all I suggested.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
They became almost non-existent after the change, but the question you should be asking is is this BECAUSE of the change, or does it merely coincide with it. I can tell you for a fact that all the hypocrites who claimed they were into the raiding for the "fun" of it and absolutely, positively not for the rewards would have jumped ship if nothing happened to the raid at all, once equivalent or BETTER rewards became more easily available elsewhere.
Yeah, yeah, I know some people did indeed enjoy the event for the event's sake. I dare say the BULK of the people arguing against the old reduction to the power of Hamidon enhancements were either fooling themselves or fooling us when they said this, however. Time and again I've heard the argument that something is SO MUCH FUN, yet the second something turns out to give better rewards, and the "fun" becomes a "grind" even though not a lot actually changed. |
Say what you will, the fact remains that the new hami raid gets very little play. I would hope the goal of the devs with their creations is to create things that get a lot of play. If that is the case, then the change was a bad one, for several possible reasons that we've gone over already. I conceed the possibility that reverting to the old style might not alleviate that. I only suggested offering both and looking at the results.
I keep hearing about this 'evil' situation where players play things based on rewards. I hate to break it to you, but that's just human nature. If the devs want to encourage more hami-raid participation, then they could go the easy route and just increase the rewards. But really, the biggest problem with hami raids is the fail rate compared to other offerings that offer similar rewards, that become ridiculously better when factoring in fail rates.
I know that most of those who post here on the boards are above average players, but the game is filled with average to poor players. And there is nothing wrong with that, even the worst players contribute money to this game that pays the devs who offer us the goods. But the more players you need to complete something, the more likely the overall skill level of the group will be diminished, which increases the chances of failure. That is why I would argue the devs should save complexity and difficulty for tasks that require smaller teams, and stick to simplicity for tasks that require thirty players or more. Or you end up with things that rarely ever get played...
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Create a new, better, unique reward? It would be relatively easy to do and would almost certainly increase participation. Actually, even just allowing players to choose the HO they want (or fixing the drop rate - I'm pretty sure the market is covered for dmg/range...) would accomplish that.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I think your reasoning is sound here, but the reward for Hamidon needs a buff. Personally, I would do so by giving HOs themselves attributes that are different than purples but still very good.
I would rescind the ancient nerf to HOs that lowered their 1.5x bonus (i.e. 1.5 x what an equivalent SO gives) to 1.0. I would also allow HOs to keep their bonus at all levels. Finally, I would allow some level of choice over HOs. Probably via making the drop from Hami some kind of token that you trade in for the HO you want. The reason for the nerf to HOs (that the raid was considered too easy) relates to a raid that no longer exists. And it also doesn't take into account ED or Inventions which would minimize the impact of such a change. |
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Translation: I'll admit it's silly to look at two things in isolation and make a judgement call, but I'm going to do it anyway because that way I get to be right.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
"They replaced this with something that actually requires more active participation, and you think it's a failure because less people showed up?"
Yeah, if they create something in-game that rarely ever gets used, I'd definitely call that a failure. Especially if it replaces something that got used a lot more than the new creation. Granted, other factors may be in play in terms of the massive drop off in hami-raids, like merits for example, and obviously there will be some who prefer the new raid style to the old one. And the devs might put the two versions out and they both might get equally low usage. But again, if you put the two styles next to eachother, and more people play the old style, then it would benefit the game to provide what more players want, even if you don't prefer the old style. Why? Because the more players that play this game, the better for everyone. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Here's a little tweak that would make me more inclined to participate in the current version of the Hami Raid.
Step 1: Kill monsters to spawn Hami.
Step 2: Clear the mitos.
Step 3: Defeat Hami.
Step 4: Here's your HO, and aren't you glad you don't have to repeat step 2 three. more. freakin'. times.
I would seriously like the Hami raid to be re-visited, as BAB mentioned, the social aspect is what makes these raids fun!
I personally attended one of the old style raids, which I have to say I regularly enjoyed, even as a scrapper, we found something to do (had some issues with griefers pulling in GM's to the trollers) but I do conceed that the Phantom Army thing must have been boring.
I do however prefer it in every way, shape and form to the new raid. I much prefer Rikti Raids to Hami, yes you don't get reward merits, but you actually feel like you are kicking some serious tail.
I would have liked to see Hami evolve into much more of an encounter where you are perhaps fighting ON and IN a huge biological entity that comprises the various DE GM's rather than just a huge blob. Think Leviathan, but fighting more than just the eye, crossed with Terra from the Hamidon story arc and you get the idea, but...
- Respawning enemies that can 2 shot groups aren't fun especially when they outnumber you.
- Make it interesting, calling in GM's like the Lord Winter encounter is MUCH better than just respawning what you've just taken ages to defeat.
- Lets get some Lusca style moving when injured action going as well perhaps?
I know its extra work, but on the old forums I threw up a whole paged writeup on revamping the DE in the same way the Rikti got a facelift. they are supposed to be the biggest threat to Paragon ingame, but we don't see them used much!
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
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You know, I really hate the idea of improving rewards to get players to use content. I've spent years in various MMOs following slightly more appetising carrots hanging from long sticks through boring content and it's not the brilliant fix some of you think it is.
The Mothership Raid has a non-uber reward and plenty of people do that because its a fun little community gathering. It follows that if Hami was fun then people would also be turning up to wade through his jelly and pop his little glowing balls on a regular basis.
Oo-err, that sounded a bit rude 
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How do you know that? Are you the one in the tree with the binoculars? Leave me alone!!! |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I know that most of those who post here on the boards are above average players, but the game is filled with average to poor players.
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What they replaced was something that was such a complete failure as functional content that it was replaced by an almost entirely social event for probably 90 of 100 attendees. That was not a success - that was a functional failure that people participated in anyway because it gave what, at the time, was the best-reward in the game.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
"They replaced this with something that actually requires more active participation, and you think it's a failure because less people showed up?"
Yeah, if they create something in-game that rarely ever gets used, I'd definitely call that a failure. Especially if it replaces something that got used a lot more than the new creation. |
This was replaced by something that was actually functional and thus took more active participation to do. As a result the people who were, effectively, leeching a reward while chatting all stopped coming. The new raid appealed to the sort of people who were key to the old raid, and didn't just pseudo-leech it. If this is a failure I hope we keep on failing like this more.
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| But again, if you put the two styles next to eachother, and more people play the old style, then it would benefit the game to provide what more players want, even if you don't prefer the old style. Why? Because the more players that play this game, the better for everyone. |
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| Now to address your difficulty argument. Nothing in this game is rocket science. But clearly the new raids are more difficult to set up and run. |
That may sound very harsh, but the fact is that failed raids are the result of people who lack the focus to act as a team or knowledgeable leadership on what to do. It probably sounds very complex to get 35-50 people to act as a team, but it's not, if each person can follow instructions (or already knows what to do). Working strategies are well known. People just have to care enough to pass on the instructions, and the people they are passed on to have to care enough to carry them out.
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| Some people prefer the added difficulty, but judging by the massive drop off in play, I think it's safe to say these people, including yourself, are in the minority. If the devs want to play to the minority, that's up to them, but I don't think that's in the best interests of the game. |
Can the raid be improved? Absolutely. I agree very much with people here who have said that the current reward probably doesn't appeal enough to those I branded "ADD monkeys" to get them to overcome those tendencies and carry out a mass raid rather than a simple TF. I would bet you real world money that if Hami gave the best possible rewards in the game again, an awful lot more people would execute raids. In fact, I would predict a need for redsign in short order because, franky, those of us who do run it have it down pretty well.
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| And it's not some kind of mortal sin to prefer simplicity over complexity in a video game. |
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| The old raids weren't about 'leet skillz', they were about socializing, getting some loot and being part of the server 'community'. |
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| If you disagree that's fine. But I would hope we can all agree that the more people who play this game, the better it is for the game, for obvious reasons. |
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| And removing popular features and replacing them with less popular ones, will not be good for the game, for obvious reasons. |
In summary, your conclusions are based on overly simple interpretation of multiple overlapping game changes, I think your views on the effect of easy or hard content are pretty exaggerated, and your link between having people raid and the health of the game are overstated. That's a lot of degrees of wrong. I don't think this just comes down to opinions that can agree to disagree. You're basing your position on several "facts", and I think you have your facts out of whack.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It's less about giving it better rewards just to get people to go than it is giving it upgraded rewards to put it back at the proper spot on the spectrum, in comparision to other, easier content that has been added since.|
Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem
You know, I really hate the idea of improving rewards to get players to use content. I've spent years in various MMOs following slightly more appetising carrots hanging from long sticks through boring content and it's not the brilliant fix some of you think it is.
The Mothership Raid has a non-uber reward and plenty of people do that because its a fun little community gathering. It follows that if Hami was fun then people would also be turning up to wade through his jelly and pop his little glowing balls on a regular basis. |
Revamped raid should have gotten revamped rewards. Especially in light of all the rewards that were already in the pipeline when the revamp went through. All we're doing is reminding the devs that rectifying that mistake wouldn't be a horrible idea and wouldn't be as hard as coming up with Hami mk. 3
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Agreed. Hami raids were the biggest waste of 1-2 hours I could think of, and I only tended to go when I was otherwise completely bored and everyone I knew was there and not interested in doing anything else.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Popular and high volume are not the same thing. I contest that old Hamidon was actually popular. It was simply there, it was easy if you rode on the backs of the core leaders, and people socialized while they did it. I knew big chunks of the raiding attendees at old Hamidon raids who hated the raid intensely, but came because it was easy to get a HO.
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Just like running AE farms isn't particularly fun but tons of people went because that was the best way to get the shiny, old Hami wasn't much fun as an actual activity, but it had a nice shiny.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Translation: I'll admit it's silly to look at two things in isolation and make a judgement call, but I'm going to do it anyway because that way I get to be right.
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Better get your translator looked at, lol. I'm suggesting putting the two styles up against eachother in-game to see which is preferred. Obviously I have an opinion on the matter, but the fact I'm suggesting we test them against eachother should clearly show that I'm not claiming to know for a fact what the results would be.
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Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem
You know, I really hate the idea of improving rewards to get players to use content. I've spent years in various MMOs following slightly more appetising carrots hanging from long sticks through boring content and it's not the brilliant fix some of you think it is.
The Mothership Raid has a non-uber reward and plenty of people do that because its a fun little community gathering. It follows that if Hami was fun then people would also be turning up to wade through his jelly and pop his little glowing balls on a regular basis. Oo-err, that sounded a bit rude How do you know that? Are you the one in the tree with the binoculars? Leave me alone!!! |
Ha, I said 'most'. I would think that 'most' who post on these boards have a higher than average interest in the game. If you don't fit this description, then it's a good thing I didn't use an absolute like 'all' or 'everyone'. And just because I like to hang out in trees with binoculars doesn't mean you have to get all nasty about it. Close your curtains showboater.
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I think you do probably know what the results would be.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Better get your translator looked at, lol. I'm suggesting putting the two styles up against eachother in-game to see which is preferred. Obviously I have an opinion on the matter, but the fact I'm suggesting we test them against eachother should clearly show that I'm not claiming to know for a fact what the results would be.
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If the devs gave us the option to level the old fashioned way or using boss farms in the AE, which do you think people would choose? The old raid was an easy path to reward. Of course more people would choose to attend it. That doesn't mean making it an option is the right course to follow.
As a completely off topic edit, the tags on this thread are awesome.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I see your attitude a lot in this game. You like to play the game your way, and that's fine, but any aspects of the game you don't like, you want removed, even if other players enjoy them, and even if they don't directly affect you. That's bad for the game, because it inevitably hurts subscription numbers, and again, the less people who play this game, the worse off the game becomes. And I guarantee you that the amount of people who enjoy participating in the 'coh event' determines whether or not this game is a 'success' and whether or not it continues or is cancelled. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
What they replaced was something that was such a complete failure as functional content that it was replaced by an almost entirely social event for probably 90 of 100 attendees. That was not a success - that was a functional failure that people participated in anyway because it gave what, at the time, was the best-reward in the game.
This was replaced by something that was actually functional and thus took more active participation to do. As a result the people who were, effectively, leeching a reward while chatting all stopped coming. The new raid appealed to the sort of people who were key to the old raid, and didn't just pseudo-leech it. If this is a failure I hope we keep on failing like this more. Really? I guess we should go back to letting everyone power level to 50 in 4 hours (or less). Clearly that was wildly popular. I explained this. The only reason this raid is harder is because you have to keep the herd of cats in line much better. Justice has a long-standing successful raid community for no other reason than that the majority of the people who come to the raid aren't some sort of ADD monkeys who can't be trusted to follow simple directions. That may sound very harsh, but the fact is that failed raids are the result of people who lack the focus to act as a team or knowledgeable leadership on what to do. It probably sounds very complex to get 35-50 people to act as a team, but it's not, if each person can follow instructions (or already knows what to do). Working strategies are well known. People just have to care enough to pass on the instructions, and the people they are passed on to have to care enough to carry them out. I think you are lumping together too many changes that happened at the same time and falsely attributing the end result to one of them. Can the raid be improved? Absolutely. I agree very much with people here who have said that the current reward probably doesn't appeal enough to those I branded "ADD monkeys" to get them to overcome those tendencies and carry out a mass raid rather than a simple TF. I would bet you real world money that if Hami gave the best possible rewards in the game again, an awful lot more people would execute raids. In fact, I would predict a need for redsign in short order because, franky, those of us who do run it have it down pretty well. To a point. I believe you've crossed that line and carried that perspective to an outrageous extreme. That's not a raid. We can do that under the statue of Atlas. If the devs want to give us tools that promote such socializing, that's cool. A raid where you have the time for the degree of pure socializing we had at the old raid is not a raid. It's a farce. Worse, it was socializing on the backs of people actually organizing and doing what paying of attention was required. You actually needed 5-10 people who weren't just using CoH as a chat interface during a raid, and everyone else was essentially having their good time on those people's dime. The connection between number of people playing the game and number of people going to raids is tenuous at best. Anyone who would actually leave because of the change in Hamidon was clearly here on the most tenuous of bases already. Frankly, having a few hard to do things keeps people here too, and the people who didn't actually care if it was hard still have plenty of easy things to do. Dragging in the idea that "easier is good for the game" feels like a major smokescreen to me. Popular and high volume are not the same thing. I contest that old Hamidon was actually popular. It was simply there, it was easy if you rode on the backs of the core leaders, and people socialized while they did it. I knew big chunks of the raiding attendees at old Hamidon raids who hated the raid intensely, but came because it was easy to get a HO. In summary, your conclusions are based on overly simple interpretation of multiple overlapping game changes, I think your views on the effect of easy or hard content are pretty exaggerated, and your link between having people raid and the health of the game are overstated. That's a lot of degrees of wrong. I don't think this just comes down to opinions that can agree to disagree. You're basing your position on several "facts", and I think you have your facts out of whack. |
I've already conceeded the possibility that the drop in play could be attributed to other reasons outside of difficulty. Which is why I have suggested offering both styles and/or revisions to the new raid to see if interest in raids could be improved and/or rekindled. That would certainly demonstrate a more open mind than simply claiming the old raid was garbage and unusable, and dismissing any argument in support of even testing the two raids against eachother.
Implying that my facts are 'out of whack' and that I'm exaggerating, while implying anyone who might have preferred the old raid over the new one are 'ADD monkeys' and that the old raid only took 5-10 people to pull it off is pretty ironic at best. It's like saying you only need two people to do a STF - sure it can be done, but not by the majority of coh players, and if this game is going to remain successful, it better cater to the majority, not the top few.
You clearly prefer the new raid to the old one, and that's fine. I've simply suggested putting the two styles in play against eachother for a month or two to see which is preferred by the majority. If you are correct, the old one would get virtually no play, and the devs could just toss it out. But what if the old one received far more play than the new one and revived interest in hami raids? Should the devs ignore what their customers would clearly prefer? Should the devs cater to the majority or the minority?
I participated regularly at the old raids, and I know they weren't perfect, but they were fun and got a lot of play. I hated when people griefed them, but at the same time, it really made things intersting. And I didn't like the idea of people just logging in and 'leetching', but why throw out the baby with the bath water?
Maybe hami raids are just dead and gone for the most part simply because the game has changed. But that doesn't mean we can't talk about how to revive them. And you can claim the new raids are fine for the most part all day long, but the fact remains hami raid play has dropped off significantly the very moment the new raid was introduced. Sure there were other contributing factors, but the design of the raid is clearly one of them, even if a small minority (judging by participation numbers) disagrees. Ultimately, what is the harm in simply testing the two styles against eachother? The only thing I could see being damaged is pride...
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Please explain why you feel offering a hami raid that customers clearly prefer over the new raid is not the 'right course to follow'.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think you do probably know what the results would be.
If the devs gave us the option to level the old fashioned way or using boss farms in the AE, which do you think people would choose? The old raid was an easy path to reward. Of course more people would choose to attend it. That doesn't mean making it an option is the right course to follow. As a completely off topic edit, the tags on this thread are awesome. |
If your only answer is 'it's too easy', keep in mind that is from your point of view. Secondly, easy compared to what? The new raid that nobody plays? Easier than running some task forces with 4-6 people? Ultimately, rewards in this game are based on the amount of time you sink into it, so claiming something is too easy is silly, imo. I don't think I've ever failed an ITF run, yet I remember many old version hami raids going south after wasting quite a while on them.
If you want to change Hamidon's rewards, increase the number of S/HOs that are available to drop and like already suggested, make HOs something you can choose.
I would love for there to be a Recharge/Endurance HO. Or Accuracy/Recharge. Or [fill in the blank].
We need more variations that aren't tailored to Invulnerability, Empathy, and Radiation. And if you're flagging things like Centrioles into resistance powers as being an exploit...then give us the alternative to make the exploit unnecessary. I like the option of Resistance/Range. It makes buffing on the applicable powers much less irritating. You don't even need new names, just generic associations of say, Cytoskeleton Exposure to defense enhancement and make Cytoskeleton Exposure α, β, or γ, etc.
I'm also a big fan of the return to the i4 values for HOs. Hell, even SHOs if you're feeling generous--if you can choose the specific HO and SHOs are random with the greater number of options I've suggested, the disparity would already be wide enough. And if I could get away with two Resistance/Recharge HOs for ~90-95% resistance/recharge enhancement in a power like World of Pain, or any applicable Tier9, as opposed to 4 Resistance/Recharge IOs, I'd be ecstatic.
Anyway.
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And people keep saying nobody raids the new Hamidon? Guardian sometimes gets regarded as one of the "dead" servers and they have a scheduled Hamidon raid. If you're having issues getting people to start raiding Hamidon, the various server forums and global channels exist for a reason. Get it going, lead, and it'll work out.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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They do directly affect me. People always take the easy route. Give people the autofollow raid for the same rewards, and you'll bleed away attendance from the harder raid. People will do what's easier even it it's less engaging.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I see your attitude a lot in this game. You like to play the game your way, and that's fine, but any aspects of the game you don't like, you want removed, even if other players enjoy them, and even if they don't directly affect you.
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| That's bad for the game, because it inevitably hurts subscription numbers, and again, the less people who play this game, the worse off the game becomes. |
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| And I guarantee you that the amount of people who enjoy participating in the 'coh event' determines whether or not this game is a 'success' and whether or not it continues or is cancelled. |
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| That would certainly demonstrate a more open mind than simply claiming the old raid was garbage and unusable, and dismissing any argument in support of even testing the two raids against eachother. |
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| Implying that my facts are 'out of whack' and that I'm exaggerating, while implying anyone who might have preferred the old raid over the new one are 'ADD monkeys' and that the old raid only took 5-10 people to pull it off is pretty ironic at best. |
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| It's like saying you only need two people to do a STF - sure it can be done, but not by the majority of coh players, and if this game is going to remain successful, it better cater to the majority, not the top few. |
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| Should the devs ignore what their customers would clearly prefer? |
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| Should the devs cater to the majority or the minority? |
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| And I didn't like the idea of people just logging in and 'leetching', but why throw out the baby with the bath water? |
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| And you can claim the new raids are fine for the most part all day long |
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| Ultimately, what is the harm in simply testing the two styles against eachother? The only thing I could see being damaged is pride... |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You mean the new raid that Justice was raiding three times in the last week, two of which were led by a guy who'd never done it before?|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
If your only answer is 'it's too easy', keep in mind that is from your point of view. Secondly, easy compared to what? The new raid that nobody plays?
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"Hard" is relative. I've explained this. Apparently you understanding my explanation is also "hard".
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| don't think I've ever failed an ITF run, yet I remember many old version hami raids going south after wasting quite a while on them. |
*We've raided new Hami with around 25 people. It wasn't easy, and I wouldn't recommend it in general, but it did work.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
It was 25 characters but only about 15 people. A lot of us were dual boxing. | *We've raided new Hami with around 25 people. It wasn't easy, and I wouldn't recommend it in general, but it did work. |
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
I'd still like to see the Hamidon Raid revamped to be more like the Rikti Mothership Raid, to give that same feeling of fighting overwhelming numbers of tough enemies with progressive goals/rewards, and to make it easier to run on the lower population servers. Sure, Hamidon should be more than a speedbump (like U'Kon Gr'ai often is), but I'd go with similar principles so that folks are encouraged to attend the whole raid and enjoy it. The Mothership Raids are run weekly on Union and Defiant (or at least they were a couple of months ago when I last played before my arm injury) because they're fairly straightforward and they're fun, regardless of rewards.
I've had a lot of ideas today for how I'd revamp the raid, plus how I'd change the HO reward mechanic to be more like Vanguard/Reward merits (so you could progressively save up for specific HOs or random roll for them at cheaper cost) - which I see some of you have mentioned.
However the idea is far too long to post here, as well as being slightly off-topic in terms of the OP, plus it would be somewhat egotistical of me to foist a wall of text on you guys here, so I've made a post on the Suggestions forum at this link, for anyone who cares to read it and comment.
Perhaps the bragging rights of being able to say that you helped reduce debt across your entire server for a couple days would add sweetener to the encounter. Maybe the buff could be randomized and include interesting but not game-breaking buffs. Things like 10% movement buff, 1% recovery, 2% accuracy, 0.5% damage, stuff like that. Just thinking out loud.
I'd love to suggest a +5% or +10% xp/inf/prestige buff for 12/24 hours, as that would aid most players on most characters. While that doesn't seem game-breaking to me (not when compared to rested time, day jobs bonuses and dxp weekends) I suspect the Devs might disagree if you stacked up multiple sources - though I guess it could be made exclusive, such as how rested xp doesn't work as a bonus on dxp weekends.