Tell me how it was grandpa...
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2009-11-19 12:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
I thought it was around 21-22 toons but I can't remember exactly how many, but it didn't feel like there was a real chance of failure.
|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
It was 25 characters but only about 15 people. A lot of us were dual boxing.
 |
Quote:
JL beat new Hami with 17 characters (plus a couple of dual-box extras on the rock for wipe recovery) and I think the strat would work with a very specific 14, but holy **** was it ever slow killing mitos one at a time.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
It was 25 characters but only about 15 people. A lot of us were dual boxing.
|
I'm not particularly impressed by doing the same thing 4 times, but it's better than the old autofire lagfest.
Also, I think the reason why it took so long to develop the "no evac" strategy is that we TRIED that on test in the early days and it went so badly we wrote it off. Basically the yellows spawned and instantly fired one shot each before anyone could possibly react (there were tanks in position to try and taunt them), and that volley wiped the main group. At the time there just wasn't the level of practice required to coordinate buffs and get around that problem when we were working on getting the raid done at all.
Quote:
I like these ideas. Ideally speaking I would prefer a full on Raid Leader mode that lets a leader and deputies handle invites and team shuffling, as well as keeps the zone under control such that if someone leaves or DCs they can come back. However barring that, a field hospital would be ideal.
|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
[*]Zone 'invasion' after a Hami defeat. It would also make sense that all the DE would go bonkers after Hami has been defeated.
Having all the DE in the open zones act more aggressively and possibly debuffed would also add a sense of accomplishment to finishing a raid.[*]Put a field hospital near the entrance but only rez to a sliver of health, and mezzed just like a tier 1 awaken. This would help for people who mistakenly click out of the zone while others are trying to get into a full zone. Not a big deal for experienced raiders but always sad to see someone who clicks out and loses their spot.[/LIST][/FONT] |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
But "balance" isn't automatically better. If you create a perfectly balanced game and everyone avoids it because they hate it, then you have failed on an epic scale.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm dismissing it because it's a stacked "test". It's result will not determine which content is "better". It will determine which is less well balanced. Just like powerleveling to 50 in four hours, just because everyone did it does not make it "better".
|
We get that you prefer the new raid. Can you even IMAGINE that the people who prefer the old raid are not all greedy scum only after the reward?
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Please, God, no. I appreciate everyone that steps up to a leadership role in a raid but I don't want any one person to hold the keys to the Hive.
|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Ideally speaking I would prefer a full on Raid Leader mode that lets a leader and deputies handle invites and team shuffling, as well as keeps the zone under control such that if someone leaves or DCs they can come back.
|
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
Well clearly in those circumstances, the Hive wouldn't be a true zone nor would it be a true instanced map. Someone may take control, but it would be just as easy for someone else to start their own raid.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Please, God, no. I appreciate everyone that steps up to a leadership role in a raid but I don't want any one person to hold the keys to the Hive.
|
However I do think it's important to come up with some way to handle things so that A) it's easier to manage teams and B) disconnects don't instantly mean you're SOL when you were there for the whole raid but someone else was clicking on the gate when you DC'd.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
Yes, I can. You would probably know that if you weren't busy twising my words into something I didn't say.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
We get that you prefer the new raid. Can you even IMAGINE that the people who prefer the old raid are not all greedy scum only after the reward?
|
Do you think that everyone that ran through boss farms was greedy scum? How about everyone that got PL'd in the AE, or ran a ticket farm? Of course they weren't. They were players chasing shinies that suddenly rained from heaven.
But even if we don't villainize those players, how many people here think that giving them access to that was actually a good idea? I don't mean what was intended, but what actually happened?
If we gave that PLing and farming ability to them again, do any of you actually believe they wouldn't go back to using it? I believe they'd be back at it in a New York minute. Taking the easy route is simple human nature. It's why games have rules and limits, and why the devs are on a never ending quest to close loopholes and exploits. People seek out the easy routes. Does everyone? No, but an awful lot of people do. Enough of them that keeping them from constantly taking routes far more easy than intended is an ongoing quest by the devs of every game.
The old Hamidon raid was a very easy route. The social scene was a symptom of how easy it was combined with how boring it was. The easy reward attracted people, and the presense of a lot of people doing something boring produced a social scene. People enjoyed that social scene, and that's laudable, but it was only possible for it to spring up in that form because there was something wrong with the underlying mechanics. Seriously, can anyone point to any content that they think the devs intentionally designed to be performed on /follow with a power on autofire? If you can't, do you really think that what was the game's only end-game content - the hardest challenge it offered - was supposed to be executed that way?
This isn't about whether or not I liked the old raid or like the new one. It's about simple common sense regarding whether or not the old one was a functional challenge. Anyone trying to defend this notion of comparing the new and old raid and seeing which is more "popular" are completely sidestepping that question. The old raid was broken, plain and simple. Almost all the "good things" people remember about it were community add-ons that didn't actually have anything to do with the actual raid or the mechanics.
The old raid was a slog that people did because it yielded the best reward, and they socialized because slogging isn't fun. That doesn't mean a slog is a good idea.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I'm with you on wanting a way to manage DCs and accidental exits, but I'm with Flea in not wanting to see someone with full power akin to a team star on a Hamidon raid. While it is a completely sensible idea from an organizational perspective, there is far too much risk of excessive drama from people who think much too highly of themselves.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Well clearly in those circumstances, the Hive wouldn't be a true zone nor would it be a true instanced map. Someone may take control, but it would be just as easy for someone else to start their own raid.
However I do think it's important to come up with some way to handle things so that A) it's easier to manage teams and B) disconnects don't instantly mean you're SOL when you were there for the whole raid but someone else was clicking on the gate when you DC'd. |
Depending on how much backing they have from a clique of allies, this may not be a self-correcting situation the way having a lone rogue would be. After all, if some lone guy's a jerkwad all the time, people could just boycott his raids. But if you get on the wrong side of a big ego who's part of a crew that manages raids, now you've got a problem.
It's one of those "this is why we can't have nice things" problems. As much as it'd be nice to be able to have the control to do things like kick leeches and the like, I think the open structure of the current raids (both Hami and RWZ) is far less drama prone.
That doesn't mean I don't want to see any improvements. I'm just leery of certain powers the raid leader(s) could have.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
*Grabs the conch and kicks Uber*|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's one of those "this is why we can't have nice things" problems. As much as it'd be nice to be able to have the control to do things like kick leeches and the like, I think the open structure of the current raids (both Hami and RWZ) is far less drama prone.
That doesn't mean I don't want to see any improvements. I'm just leery of certain powers the raid leader(s) could have. |
Justice tends to be lite on drama.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm with you on wanting a way to manage DCs and accidental exits, but I'm with Flea in not wanting to see someone with full power akin to a team star on a Hamidon raid. While it is a completely sensible idea from an organizational perspective, there is far too much risk of excessive drama from people who think much too highly of themselves.
Depending on how much backing they have from a clique of allies, this may not be a self-correcting situation the way having a lone rogue would be. After all, if some lone guy's a jerkwad all the time, people could just boycott his raids. But if you get on the wrong side of a big ego who's part of a crew that manages raids, now you've got a problem. It's one of those "this is why we can't have nice things" problems. As much as it'd be nice to be able to have the control to do things like kick leeches and the like, I think the open structure of the current raids (both Hami and RWZ) is far less drama prone. That doesn't mean I don't want to see any improvements. I'm just leery of certain powers the raid leader(s) could have. |
The same could be said about the dangers of team leadership, only applicable on a larger scale. People have to work things out once given the tools for grouping.
The way around the problem of unjust leadership is to have the players present in the zone elect the raid leader by voting, in a similar fashion to a group-kick in a first person shooter. There would have to be a quorum set by the devs to initiate the raid setup through player action, and then all in the raid listing would be transported to the instanced Hive/Abyss.
Then again, they already have a workable setup in game they could adapt for the raid: Arena.
"When heroes fail, the Angels will save you."
MASTERMIND NUMERIC KEYPAD PET CONTROLS
HAMIDON NUKE RAID GUIDE
Quote:
The thing is, if you don't like a team, it's extremely lightweight to leave that team and either find or form another. That's not true of a raid. Even on a server that raids regularly, you're not likely to find another raid to go to for at least a day, and on most servers, it'll be the same crew running it the next time. Even if you're so ambitious as to go about running one yourself, you're not likely to get the raiders to come until the next day, being very optimistic. So while I agree with the theory of what you're saying, I don't think it's that realistic in practice.|
Originally Posted by Sandolphan
The same could be said about the dangers of team leadership, only applicable on a larger scale. People have to work things out once given the tools for grouping.
|
Quote:
| The way around the problem of unjust leadership is to have the players present in the zone elect the raid leader by voting, in a similar fashion to a group-kick in a first person shooter. There would have to be a quorum set by the devs to initiate the raid setup through player action, and then all in the raid listing would be transported to the instanced Hive/Abyss. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
It's true. My concerns are actually mainly based on another server's past raid drama, which spilled pretty visibly onto their board forum (or I never would have known about them).
|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Justice tends to be lite on drama.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I always thought the Hamidon would be a nice supergroup raid. Start it through that SG mission computer thing, get your own instance, have fun. Coalition members could join in, but the whole thing would be invisible to outsiders. It might exacerbate existing sg drama, but that seldom impacts the rest of the game very much.
Yes, it's unfair to people like me who aren't in the kind of sg that would run the raid, but I still think it's a reasonable thing to have in the game. Right now we have content which is scaled for individuals, and content that is only suitable for teams, and content which an entire server can join in on, but nothing that's really designed for supergroups.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
I think folks hit the nail on the head with the reward. If it were a better reward you might see more people come. 53 merits might seem like alot, but it's not when you consider how fast folk can speed tfs nowadays.
I don't even count hami enhancements as worth anything, period. Not since certain IOs like the +7.5% recharge, miracle, numinas rec/regen and purples, nd 2 billion inf pvp ios, came into existence.
As each new speed tf came out (and teams posting ridiculous speed times), and each of the rewards I listed above came out, Hamidon enh became less and less important . . . and thus for some servers Hamdion became more and more irrelevant.
/shrug.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Private raids have been done already. Just use /hide to make sure no one sees you in the hive/abyss, although people log in and out of the area frequently enough that it won't ever be fully private.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
I always thought the Hamidon would be a nice supergroup raid. Start it through that SG mission computer thing, get your own instance, have fun. Coalition members could join in, but the whole thing would be invisible to outsiders. It might exacerbate existing sg drama, but that seldom impacts the rest of the game very much.
Yes, it's unfair to people like me who aren't in the kind of sg that would run the raid, but I still think it's a reasonable thing to have in the game. Right now we have content which is scaled for individuals, and content that is only suitable for teams, and content which an entire server can join in on, but nothing that's really designed for supergroups. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think folks hit the nail on the head with the reward. If it were a better reward you might see more people come. 53 merits might seem like alot, but it's not when you consider how fast folk can speed tfs nowadays.
I don't even count hami enhancements as worth anything, period. Not since certain IOs like the +7.5% recharge, miracle, numinas rec/regen and purples, nd 2 billion inf pvp ios, came into existence. As each new speed tf came out (and teams posting ridiculous speed times), and each of the rewards I listed above came out, Hamidon enh became less and less important . . . and thus for some servers Hamdion became more and more irrelevant. /shrug. |
Quote:
The ability to speed 2-3 tfs and get the same amount without having to rely on 49 other folks to me is always more appealing that he merits or the hami, which has a high chance of being worthless.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Private raids have been done already. Just use /hide to make sure no one sees you in the hive/abyss, although people log in and out of the area frequently enough that it won't ever be fully private.
Not all hamis are worthless, although the chances of getting a decent hami doesn't make it worth choosing the hami over the merits for me. |
I don't mind corralling 7 other folks. Relying on 49 others for a half-***** reward is my issue.
If I'm looking for a coordinated high other player number activity I'll stick to my rikti mothership raids, especially since there is double the chance to get more people, with it being co-op.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I've been to just one hami raid since it was revamped. We didn't win and it wasn't near as much fun as the old one to me.
|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
I went to several of the old hami raids. If I was playing and one was announced, I was there. Sure, it was a mess. But it was a FUN mess.
The new one? I think I've been to one - maybe two - since the new version went live. |
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
Quote:
I've done a private raid with ~20 peeps in about 45 minutes. I think I got a centriole for my troubles. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The ability to speed 2-3 tfs and get the same amount without having to rely on 49 other folks to me is always more appealing that he merits or the hami, which has a high chance of being worthless.
I don't mind corralling 7 other folks. Relying on 49 others for a half-***** reward is my issue. If I'm looking for a coordinated high other player number activity I'll stick to my rikti mothership raids, especially since there is double the chance to get more people, with it being co-op. |
If you round that up to an hour for gathering, setup, etc., I suppose you'd say that the 53 merits for hami is pretty competitive with 2-3 TFs but everyone in the zone has received those merits.
I got yet another reminder why the new hami raid is, to be blunt, crap, and why I hadn't done it in years and I won't be doing it again unless some changes happen.
Raid forms on the Hive 1. People wait around half an hour while teams form. We fight the giant monsters, we spawn hami... and the leader disconnects.
The raid leader then sees that 10-20 people are trying to get into the Hive 1, calls it a lost cause, and calls his buddies to start the raid on Hive 2. By the time Hive 1 starts moving to Hive 2, it's already full. A lot of people who waited half an hour and worked to get the raid started in the first instance get screwed.
The leader then claims "anyone could have taken over to lead Hive 1, I did nothing wrong"; except by having people follow them to Hive 2, there's not enough people in Hive 1. It's dead dead dead.
And after Hive 2 raid finishes, said raid leader heads back into Hive 1 to raid the spawned Hami quickly, leaving the reward box up to get the reward the next day. Double "screw you" to everybody who started the raid in Hive 1.
I'm still very angry at the raid leader for deciding right away to start Hive 2 instead of letting Hive 1 have a chance to lead without them; by starting Hive 2 right away, Hive 1 was immediately short on people, since everybody "followed the leader".
Until some mechanic is in place to treat Hami like a big instance where people who get in STAY in, I'm giving up on it again for another seveal years.
www.SaveCOH.com: Calls to Action and Events Calendar
This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
Quote:
Wow, looks like a bunch of bad politics going on there. On Justice there isn't a shortage of qualified raid leadership so a single DC by a leader or the organizer doesn't cripple the raid, and getting people to leave H1 for H2 isn't very cool. I've known more than a couple of people who've volunteered to leave raids to make room for raid leaders who've DC'd just as a matter of principle.
|
Originally Posted by Leandro
I got yet another reminder why the new hami raid is, to be blunt, crap, and why I hadn't done it in years and I won't be doing it again unless some changes happen.
Raid forms on the Hive 1. People wait around half an hour while teams form. We fight the giant monsters, we spawn hami... and the leader disconnects. The raid leader then sees that 10-20 people are trying to get into the Hive 1, calls it a lost cause, and calls his buddies to start the raid on Hive 2. By the time Hive 1 starts moving to Hive 2, it's already full. A lot of people who waited half an hour and worked to get the raid started in the first instance get screwed. The leader then claims "anyone could have taken over to lead Hive 1, I did nothing wrong"; except by having people follow them to Hive 2, there's not enough people in Hive 1. It's dead dead dead. And after Hive 2 raid finishes, said raid leader heads back into Hive 1 to raid the spawned Hami quickly, leaving the reward box up to get the reward the next day. Double "screw you" to everybody who started the raid in Hive 1. I'm still very angry at the raid leader for deciding right away to start Hive 2 instead of letting Hive 1 have a chance to lead without them; by starting Hive 2 right away, Hive 1 was immediately short on people, since everybody "followed the leader". Until some mechanic is in place to treat Hami like a big instance where people who get in STAY in, I'm giving up on it again for another seveal years. |
Well, I used to participate in the old raids, but I haven't actually succeeded in any attempts at the new Hami. 3 tries. Victory server.
Alas, I like running the STF better, if I wanted a HamiO. I miss the silliness of the old raids, but the 8-man teaming is funs.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Quote:
It was 19, on the a private that I've been in on.
|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
I thought it was around 21-22 toons but I can't remember exactly how many, but it didn't feel like there was a real chance of failure.
|
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
Quote:
Yes, but we don't have the ego on Justice. Raid leaders actually care about the raid participants, above their own ego.
|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Wow, looks like a bunch of bad politics going on there. On Justice there isn't a shortage of qualified raid leadership so a single DC by a leader or the organizer doesn't cripple the raid, and getting people to leave H1 for H2 isn't very cool. I've known more than a couple of people who've volunteered to leave raids to make room for raid leaders who've DC'd just as a matter of principle.
|
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
Lots of great replies in the thread...not going to put in a lot of 'me too' in it, but when Hami was the premiere thing to do it was a much more exciting atmosphere when everyone could just hop in and have a mass party in the Hive, regardless of how rote the raiding truly was...which it is now again (Justice).
- Increase the zone population limit and upgrade the hardware to accommodate for it (I can dream can't I?)
- Have Hamidon scale to the raid size. With each successive wave, a couple of more mitos or even special mitos could appear based on current hive/abyss raiders, or even some Giant Monsters running in to help Hami.
- Change the Hamidon itself to have some 'layers/shells/coatings' on him for each wave that is necessary. Add merit rewards for the layers so then there isn't an all or none aspect to finishing Hami.
- Give the players a chance to fail. One of the most exciting things about old Hami was yellow dawn.
- Zone 'invasion' after a Hami defeat. It would also make sense that all the DE would go bonkers after Hami has been defeated.
- Make centrioles less of a booby prize.
- Put a field hospital near the entrance but only rez to a sliver of health, and mezzed just like a tier 1 awaken.
A few things I'd like to see where the new Hami could be improved is:
As well, scaling would allow for a smaller first wave, which would help lower population servers get raids started.
It would require people to actually attend the entire raid to get all the merits, and anyone who DC'd during the raid wouldn't feel entirely ripped off for not being present during the final blow. Something like a 7/11/15/20 Merit scheme for each successive wave. You'd only get the Hami option if you got all the merits from each wave...kind of a KHTF badge mechanism would work.
Always winning = eventually boring. I really enjoyed watching the hold stage of the old Hami, especially when he literally disappeared and you had to target through pets. Sure it was a poor mechanic, but the idea of the final moment is like the climax of any good story.
Win or lose, the culmination of a moment. New hami doesn't have that. There is no build up to a climax, it just is...there. If Hamidon was under threat of imminent defeat, wouldn't it make sense that all the Devouring Earth would come to his aid? Reuse the Hami buds for attackers for this or something.
Of course, this then opens up the possibility of griefing raids again.
Having all the DE in the open zones act more aggressively and possibly debuffed would also add a sense of accomplishment to finishing a raid.
This would help for people who mistakenly click out of the zone while others are trying to get into a full zone. Not a big deal for experienced raiders but always sad to see someone who clicks out and loses their spot.