Everybodies Kung Fu Fighting!

That's the head-scratcher though. In theory if there was some gas on a far away planet that gave humans super strength, would that be natural? I mean ANY human that gets exposed to science-gas gets superpowers. So that's natural? Is Hulk natural cause you could take any human and expose them to that radiation and they'd gain powers? Are Trolls natural?

To me, it's not natural BECAUSE there's an outside source involved. Any Kryptonian can gain superpowers, but not without a yellow sun. In the same way that any human can be a Troll, but not without Superadine.

There's an outside source which is causing the powers, and that outside source is either going to be magic, science, or technology. Inside sources are mutation and natural. The way I rationalize them, anyway. Not saying that's correct or even canon; that's just how I consider them when I make new characters.

Why am I still derailing this thread with Superman's origin when I said I wouldn't? vv

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Hulk needs constant contact with Gamma Rays to maintain his powers? Since when?

Maybe I should elaborate this. Most Science origins originate from strange laboratory experiments or accidents or weird chemicals. You have a normal dude who's suddenly imbued with superpowers for the rest of his life. The effects can be entirely random from what I've seen. There've even been redshirts who've died from such things.

Not so with Superman. Superman, is a Kryptonian, and Kryptonians have this weird physiology that is affected in specific ways when encountering the rays of a yellow sun. It happens to ALL of them. and they ALL get the SAME powers. They are all affected by Kryptonite in the same ways. It is a very Natural aspect of their species.

Now this gas of yours, do the humans lose their powers once they return to Earth, or do they retain them? If they lose them, then it's just the Natural way a human body reacts to the gas. If they retain them, however, they are irrevocably transformed and it is indeed a Science origin.

Huh? Where exactly does the "one time vs constant exposure" part factor into whether it's natural or science? I've never heard that reference in-game. If it's there, I missed it. I've never considered whether they only need it to happen once or all the time to matter. Does it really matter if their powers come from a scientific on-switch or a scientific feeding tube?

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

You're doing it because it's fun

But anyhoo ....

I generally would say that if some hypothetical gas on some distant planet gave any human that came into contact with it, without altering a human's natural biology in any way a set of (reasonably) predictable superpowers that had fairly little variance from human to human ... that would be a natural aspect of human physiology and not some sort of weird science effect. To me a science origin would have to change the natural makeup of a person/alien/whatever in order to move it from natural.

If you've been reading at all, Superman needs constant exposure to yellow sunlight. He loses his powers after he's been away from a yellow sun for some time. Instantly if he encounters a red sun.

I know that. What I'm asking is why the duration of the effect changes whether it's science or natural. If a human is exposed to deadly radiation that gives them superpowers forever, it's science, but if a human is exposed to deadly radiation that gives them powers as long as they're in the beam, that's natural? The origin story itself is what should matter, now how long they keep the powers for. Either way, it's deadly radiation, drugs, sunlight, or crazy gas giving them the powers. What does it matter how long it's for?

And what if it gives them powers for 30 years and then stops? Science or natural? Five years? 30 minutes? 18 seconds? Where's the cutoff?

EDIT: Anyway, soooo derailed. I'm ashamed at myself for still doing so. Please continue with kung fu!

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I don't think you're grasping the difference in CHEMICAL CHANGE and NATURAL BODILY REACTION.

yup unlike in Champions where there are 1231323 soopermans and wulverines.

Hourman takes a Drug to have superpowers that still be Science there nothing saying science is forever, either works.

There is no clear cause and effect for the Yellow sun, why Superman's body reacts they way it does to my knowledge. For all we knoe it could be the result of some science adption that Kyrptonians need to have when their sun, change from one colour to another. it even possible that it actaully and Adptation created from when their star became a red Giant or something.

Doom/Batman in 2012

The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!

Humans can get incredibly strong with good food and proper exercise. Strong enough to be shot with a cannonball to the chest, strong enough to pull trucks, strong enough to lift cars, strong enough to break concrete bricks. That is pretty unambiguously natural.

To move farther away from reality, humans have an innate energy called chi. If they learn to control it and train their bodies, they can use their chi to shield themselves and put more force in their strikes. And, apparently, if they train hard enough, they can fly, shoot beams of energy and turn their hair blond. That, as well, is very much natural.

SuperMan is very much natural because he is no different from any Kryptonian. His skill with his powers is his training and the yellow sunlight is his food and fuel. Unlike humans, he doesn't die without yellow sunlight, but like humans, he grows weaker and weaker without it. Just because a power source is Natural doesn't mean that power shouldn't require fuel to work. For humans it's food. For Kheldians that's a host and his own strength, which then depends on what fuels his own body. For SuperMan that's yellow sunlight.

If humans travelled to some distant planet where some weird gas gave them super strength WITHOUT harming their bodies or mutating their physiology, then yes, that would be very much normal. Just the same way as a man travelling to Mars would be super strong and able to lift giant heavy objects by virtue of nothing more than the environmental difference.

Unless a character is CHANGED in some way or has ITEMS giving him powers, it's Natural. SuperMan has neither been changed, nor ever required any sort of focusing item to give him his super powers.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The problem occurs not because of what Natural means as an origin, but rather because there's a rather large gap between JUST Natural and Natural HUMAN. If you try to make a natural human and don't want to go into mysticism or the hidden power of the human spirit, you are highly restricted in terms of what you can do (in fact, most natural humans would break their ankles just from the height of a regular jump, landing as we do). That's really what causes the debate about travel powers - people want something that at least looks like an average person can do it, at least with enough training and dedication.

Personally, I like to go the "No! Jump good!" route of arguments, but Samurai Jack's ability to jump and roll is still far from human, especially in the episode in question, and while that's OK in the outlandish settings of post-Aku Earth, it's not something that would work for a Natural Human.

Well, because of all these limitations and because of the power levels inherent in the enemies we meet, I try to avoid natural humans as much as I can, personally.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

You've never heard of kyujutsu?

I really liked the Super-Science booster - especially for the goggles/masks - but I'd rank it behind the others because it didn't provide any full costumes (not that I ever use full costumes on a single character anyway, so I wasn't bothered, but it's nice to have new pieces for every costume location). The Cyborg/Tech booster has been the most use to me personally (especially the shoulder pieces), but I think the Magic booster has been the best value for costumes as it has the most intricate/classy costume pieces with a very wide variety of uses (especially the high collar cape).

That's exactly how I see it too. The only problem I have is with cyborgs/robots - I have a cyborg who is science origin, mainly because the technical pieces added have fundamentally changed his existence, effectively making him not human anymore (plus it was an evil experiment that changed him), but a player did once tell me I'd got it wrong and the character should have been Tech origin. I disagreed (and still do), because I see Tech as something the character can "put down" (or "take off" in the case of power armour) and then just be a normal member of their race. However if/when I create a pure robot character I can't see I could give them any origin but Tech, which would clash with how I have defined Tech origin in the past.

Then there's the case of technical prosthetic replacement - to what degree does it need to progress before you change origin? Fortunately my only character with prosthetic replacement (he has cyborgised arms, because his arms were cut off as punishment), an Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker, is magic origin because he is a Mu descendant who can manifest magical Mu electricity where his arms used to be (hence his primary powerset) and he uses that to power his cyborg arms.

Yeah I own several Batman Elseworlds stories, including that one, which was why I specified main continuity

Having a "background in the sciences" does not make you science origin, though, no more than being a car mechanic makes you tech origin. To be science origin the character themselves must have been altered by a scientific process which grants them their powers - CoH is fairly explicit about that - in fact Science is probably the second least ambiguous origin (after Mutation), its parameters are so clearly defined.

I can't say I agree with you completely on where the border between science and technology lies. I don't want to discuss existing characters, but let me put it like this - just the ability to remove the tech piece is not enough to serve as a distinction. Cybernetics are an extreme example, granted, but something as simple as an arm cannon sewn into your hand would still be Technology, because you're using technology to shoot things. Science, at least as presented in the game, is more genetic engineering, enforced mutations and so on. When you start grafting machines to the body, you're slipping into the realm of Technology.

And, of course, as with most origins-related discussions, this is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Actually, the blond hair thing is only a Sayan thing (and only few of them can do it). They can also change to a giant monkey by staring at the moon (or something that emulates it). Those are a natural abilities of that race, like Kryptonian's powers from the yellow-suns light.

I was just joking about that But even if I were serious about human potential, even the humans fly around and shoot fireballs in that show. They're just constantly one power level lower than the aliens.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, Positron is tagged technology, but his powers are actually mutant. He emits radiation by himself, but his powersuit amplifies and canalizes it.
I think Tech and Natural origins are very ambiguous and wide range in this game.

I thought that Positron didn't always emit that radiation, though. Some accident or other...

Just checked ParagonWiki, the description is kinda ambiguous. Doesn't specify if the bolts of anti-matter he generates are from the suit itself or from his own natural/mutant abilities...

From here:

One can hope.

it's only "a hell of a lot faster" when stacked with Sprint and Swift. No one has yet gien pure NR stats on their own.

don't be hatin'

On a related note, most of the technology SO's are described as being cybernetic augmentations, not bits of strapped-on tech.

Regarding the Superman portion of the discussion: As for Superman being natural, not sure if it is/was canon, but i recall reading somewhere years ago that Kryptonian metabolism is partially fueled by solar radiation, and exposure to the light of more energetic stars supercharged their metabolism granting them capabilities far greater than normal. i think that might have been part of the Byrne interpretation of Superman, but i'm not sure. As for the spectrum of a red sun instantly suppressing their powers... i have no idea how that was rationalized in comic book science. But then consider the whole thing about the various colors of Kryptonite. Um, a wizard did it?