Killing pigs


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero View Post
Which reminds me of another problem I had in a certain Blizzard MMO which was resolved in CoX...You can safely attack enemies while they are helpess to retalliate due to terrain. I recall in WoW getting pissed off because I couldn't attack enemies when they were unable to reach me. Nowadays I hover around and laugh as I rain lightning upon Freakshow Slammers scrambling around to reach me.
Oy, don't get me started on terrain. It's one of the reasons I ... don't think I've fired Guild Wars up more than twice this year. (if I've hit an hour of playtime on that this year, I'd be surprised.)

"Yes, you're powerful, dangerous, and skilled. You're also defeated by any rise higher than two inches in the land. Hope everyone's mowed their lawns."


 

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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
Being better than three dumb, poorly armed gang members (Hellions) isn't terribly uber, like being better than three psychotic, cybernetic anarchy-machines (Freakshow), or three twisted horrors of nature gone berserk (Dev.Earth).
But still you're starting out as better than the average joe. The hero of your own story. And that's a good thing.
And that's just it. A big part of the game is about going from "better than your average Joe" to "Superhero". Not everyone is an alien given super powers by the very sun and doesn't really have to work to know how to use his abilities best.




Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint

 

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Originally Posted by Primal View Post
Heh, no need to take a swing Sam, it's just a matter of opinion. I happen to not see much difference when the end results are similar, just a different way of getting there. Fighting large spawns in CoH is fun with certain characters, like my Fire/Storm, but other characters are not made for that, they actually do better in single combat. In Aion it's similar, some have skills and spells for crowd control and/or damage, others are single-target specialists. (And one in particular is absurdly good at both, and only getting better, while another that was already iffy is getting cooldown times increased, not that I'm bitter.)
To be fair, I added this for emphasis. I'd never take a swing at another person

But, honestly, large-scale battles are what makes a game for me. As I've detailed elsewhere, every fight being a veritable boss battle with strong, dangerous opponents all the time is just depressing from a conceptual point of view. I'm supposed to be super strong, damn it! Why am I kill frogs, one frog at a time?

I'll grant you that not all characters are slated for massive AoE, but you know, I actually enjoy taking on large groups with them, anyway. My ideal is something akin to what happened in the old Phobia game. You have a big, mean stationary chaingun with aliens coming in front and centre. Your job is to shoot them dead before they reach you. That's sort of what I like about single-target specialists taking on large spawns. Especially with a Blaster, it's possible to pot-shot probably half a 6-minion spawn before it comes anywhere near you, and then one-punch-kill much of what's left. By that time, the last minion is usually running away, ideal for a snipe to the back.

It really comes down to visuals. A large-scale battle where enemies drop fast is exciting. A small-scale battle between a tough hero and a tough monster is interesting as a plot point, but as a spawn-to-spawn occurrence, it just GRATES. It feels like hard work, really, and that's not what I play games for.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Eisenzahn View Post
The standard MMO formula is... kind of like an abusive relationship. People may hate certain things, but if they're not offered alternatives until they've become accustomed to those things, they may become convinced that those things are actually positive.

When I quit FFXI for this game, some of my old guildmates actually argued that things like quick travel times, solo gameplay, flexible build options, mild penalties for death, lack of competition over outdoor spawns, and a loot free (at the time) system of character improvement were bad ideas.

And yet... these were the same people who would complain constantly over Linkshell Chat about having to wait 20 minutes for the airship to show up, or ride a Chocobo for half an hour to reach some obscure camp in the middle of nowhere. Or about the number of hours they'd spent sitting around in Jeuno trying to get a team going. Or about the number of months it took them to obtain all of the gear, spells, level-cap unlocks, secret zone unlocks and faction reputation necessary to be considered worthy of team invites within even a 5-10 level span. Or how much of a hassle it was getting a good camp location where you could effectively fight the monsters you were grinding for EXP without having to compete with a dozen other teams over the same spawns. Or the Notorious Monster system, which encouraged all kinds of ridiculous griefing and drama, and was the main way most players encountered RMT farmers in game. Or about how many times they'd died enough to de-level entirely, and how wary that made everyone of trying out any new content without following someone else's fine tuned strategy to the letter. Or the incredibly low drop rates of the high-end raid content, where you could go for months at a time without successfully completing an event, and even when you did, your chances were less than 1 in 100 of actually getting a reward. Or about how we'd been camping King Ranperre's Tomb for six hours, but some other guild was able to get the Vrtra legendary dragon spawn because they were using taunt bots, or because of server latency, or because it's just crummy design to put something like that on a 3-4 day timer and then load it with some of the best loot in the game, if you don't want players getting pissed at each other over it.

What they didn't seem to realise was that these problems could all be summed up as Time Sinks. The game developers needed to keep subscriptions going by making everything as time consuming as possible. There was a lot of excellence and beauty in that game, but it was clear that it only existed to provide a minimum effective incentive to put up with the rest of it.

This game... the developers seem to respect our time. And more importantly, they get involved. I haunted the official FFXI forums pretty much around the clock, and I didn't even know the names of any of the developers. Maybe that's because they were focused on communicating with their core audience, the Japanese players, but it's still a pretty unfavorable contrast to the way the developers here operate. They respect us and they listen to us. They may not agree with what they hear, but they bother to check in the first place.

...

That said... MORE STORY CONTENT IN ISSUE 17, INDEPENDENT OF WHAT'S CONTAINED IN THE PAID PORTION OF GOING ROGUE, PLEASE!!!
Damn...and I was THIS close to buying FFXI instead of CoH. Seriously, I was holding both boxes in my hands while my Mom tapped her foot behind me.


 

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Originally Posted by Mr_Squid View Post
Damn...and I was THIS close to buying FFXI instead of CoH. Seriously, I was holding both boxes in my hands while my Mom tapped her foot behind me.
Heh... you lucked out. Don't get me wrong, it's a seriously beautiful game, an amazing artistic achievement in many respects. I've dabbled in over a dozen MMOs, and none compared with that one's ability to occasionally floor me with the haunting majesty of the setting. I still have literally hundreds of screenshots saved. That, and I really loved the way combat was set up, with the element of team cooperation and strategy in the Skillchain and Magic Burst systems, where you would have two or more team members combo weapon skills together to create a period of weakness to a specific element for your Mages to exploit. But after the 400th time in a row using the exact same optimized tactic with clockwork precision on an identical crab in some grimy tunnel without gaining a level, the appeal often diminished...


@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
It doesn't work any better the other way around, either.
How else do I get "Living Tattoo" salvage. It's clearly printed on something.

Unless Hellions wear rub-on tattoos. In which case they're about as hardcore as my three-year-old son.


 

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The way I've always heard FFXI described was as follows: wonderful game, IF you already knew who you'd be teaming with before you logged in. RL friends or family, or just people who were really personable and able to hook up with strangers easily, then befriend them. Applies to some other games of the time too, I'd imagine. Soloists and those who are really slow about meeting people need not apply. It took me about three months to realize I was playing the wrong game.

I actually picked up CoH to tide me over until WoW came out. By the time it did, I didn't care about it at all. Still don't.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
It really comes down to visuals. A large-scale battle where enemies drop fast is exciting. A small-scale battle between a tough hero and a tough monster is interesting as a plot point, but as a spawn-to-spawn occurrence, it just GRATES. It feels like hard work, really, and that's not what I play games for.
And that's why everyone should have at least one badass scrapper to pull crazy stunts with. It does a body good!

http://www.walkiry.com/CoH/Freak%20Madness/index.html


Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!

It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...

The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013

 

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Originally Posted by Primal View Post
The way I've always heard FFXI described was as follows: wonderful game, IF you already knew who you'd be teaming with before you logged in. RL friends or family, or just people who were really personable and able to hook up with strangers easily, then befriend them. Applies to some other games of the time too, I'd imagine. Soloists and those who are really slow about meeting people need not apply. It took me about three months to realize I was playing the wrong game.

I actually picked up CoH to tide me over until WoW came out. By the time it did, I didn't care about it at all. Still don't.
i nearly didnt play this game BECAUSE of ff XI. It had ideas, and i dont hate the art style, but there were decisions made that caused me to rage-quit so hard that i left a crater. pity because i really liked my linkshell, a really nice group.


 

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Originally Posted by peterpeter View Post
In Star Wars Galaxies, they made me fight butterflies. Butterflies. Seriously.

Granted, they were big butterflies, but still... How do you explain to the medic that you got killed by a butterfly?
Ahh, SWG. Slaughtering butterflies, frogs, and fleas. How Star Warsy.


 

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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
I'm trying out Aion for the first month, and this isn't a compare and contrast thread, but I realised today something that CoH does really well.

The tutorial and the early levels don't have us defeating rats or pigs or insects, but humans (or zombies or robots) with at least the appearance of active sentience. I think this avoids the new player thinking 'I just got killed by a pig? and quitting in annoyance.

There's also the 1player=3mobs thing, which also helps us think we're uber right from the start.

I just can't understand why CoH doesn't have 7 million players. It's just so good! Why can't everyone see the truth!

Eco.
It's because people secretly like being killed by pigs. Why do you think there's so much doom and gloom hype around swine flu?


 

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Originally Posted by Harry_Canyon View Post
For the same reason that you can find more Hyundai vehicles on the road than Mercedes.
CoH is outrageously priced?


 

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The MMO community mostly consists of trend slaves and masochists. People thought Everquest was everything a MMO 'should' be and are afraid of anything different. Then WoW came along and made most people assume it's the only MMO worth knowing.


 

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agreed, in a way i think its a retroactive justification for playing the games because people derive some enjoyment from mmos (usually due to the social elements, or the occasionally amazing art, or sometimes the fun competitive gaming), despite them having a number of fundamental and glaring flaws of the genre. the time you thank the developers for a kill 10 mission, is the time they need not fear you anymore


 

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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire View Post
The MMO community mostly consists of trend slaves and masochists. People thought Everquest was everything a MMO 'should' be and are afraid of anything different. Then WoW came along and made most people assume it's the only MMO worth knowing.
That's why I'm glad I started MMOs with Ultima Online and not Everquest. Starting out with a system where using a sword made you better at it and cooking food made you better at it and there was no spawn camping (usually) and such made me enjoy what an MMO could be. Then Everquest came around and while I was initially floored by how MASSIVE everything was and exploring... I quickly became bored of the gameplay because I just found it boring. I dabbled in DAoC and that was fun and have played most MMOs from AO to SWG to WoW, I have found that CoH is the only one that is able to capture my attention as much as Ultima Online did.

The main things that make CoH fun for me:
1) Scale/Combat: Fighting numerous bad guys all at once and then sending them flying off a rooftop only to have one knock me off that same rooftop is fun.
2) Customization: From costumes to powers. The fact that even within an AT you can have three toons that each play completely different from eachother. Compound that with what Invention Origin Enhancements add to the table and you've got an end game for me.
3) Pace: I don't feel like I need to play a million years to get level-capped with the best gear. But just because I can get to the "end" pretty fast doesn't mean it's over... because of #2.

I think the main reason there aren't a million people playing this game is because of how much it's IMPROVED over the years.

When a game starts out somewhat weak, it can turn people away from ever trying it again. I tell people to play the game and they always say things like, "Oh, yeah, that was a fun game. It seemed cool to fly around. It just seemed to get boring fast." I think IOs were the one main thing missing from the game during launch. A form of end-game. No end-game and a bunch of stuff getting nerfed off the bat prevented this game from becoming a huge contender, in my opinion. (At least subscriber-wise)


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
And, yeah, I have to echo the "killing pigs" sentiment. I HATE it when an MMO starts me off killing cockroackes, rats, bunny rabbits, bats or any other kind of vermin.
Even more satisfying is to progress 50, 60 or 70 levels and entering some lost temple of an ancient powerful race or the extradimensional planar realm of a deity and finding... "Frothing temple rat" and "Shimmering planar cockroach".


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Even more satisfying is to progress 50, 60 or 70 levels and entering some lost temple of an ancient powerful race or the extradimensional planar realm of a deity and finding... "Frothing temple rat" and "Shimmering planar cockroach".
"Whee! New instance! Ahn'Qiraj? Sounds funky... Ooh look, the final boss of the 20-man raid is a giant Anubis-lookalike that serves an insanely powerful ancient god! Can't wait!"

"Well, sure, but most of the instance is about killing bugs."

"Bugs?"

"Bugs."

"As in... Bugs?"

"Wasps, beetles, maggots... There's a giant centipede boss, a giant beetle boss, and a giant wasp boss."

"Well... That... Bugs?"

"They're giant bugs though. Well, just kinda big actually."

*Facepalms*

A couple of the boss fights in that instance were good, and for some of the regular mobs they went through the effort of trying to at least make them look like cool insectoid-like bipedal warriors of some sort, but... I was fighting plain, slightly big bugs most of the time.

Bugs!

Seriously, I just couldn't get past that. After the fine and acceptable trolls in Zul'Gurub (the previous 20-man raid at the time, yay apostrophes!), AQ and its bugs I hated.


Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!

It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...

The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013

 

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I'm firmly in the 'fighting lots of enemies is good' camp. Back in the olden days when there were lots of rumblings that CoH was going to be thoroughly rebalanced until the whole 'every character is equivalent to about three minions and bosses are team challenges' thing, I repeatedly swore I'd leave the game if they ever made that true. It remains one of my big problem with pretty much every other MMO out there.

Well, okay, forced teaming is a big too.

And I hate raids with a passion.

And I like that our combat animations actually look like we're attacking the enemies and not just waving swords at them or making them glow slightly with magic pain.

And I hate long travel and downtimes after combat.

... um. Well. Okay, about the only thing I miss from every other MMO combined is that I liked being able to beat stuff up and then cook it in EverQuest.


Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.

 

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Killing pigs
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
But still you're starting out as better than the average joe.
The irony of the thread subject and the first replier is not lost on me.

--NT


They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

 

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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire View Post
The MMO community mostly consists of trend slaves and masochists.
It's true. Even in Tabula Rasa (rest its soul), your character, a human turned military draftee, had to kill pigs for one of your quests, as opposed to doing something more militaristic like going on patrol. Also, your guild equivalent in TR wasn't called anything militaristic like a platoon or a company - it was called a clan, just like every other FPS game on the market. There was a game so stuck in clichéd trends that it ended up pleasing no one for most of its existence. I felt sorry CuppaJo got saddled with the deservedly negative feedback from that community.


 

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Originally Posted by NuclearToast View Post
The irony of the thread subject and the first replier is not lost on me.

--NT
The thread title definately caught my eye. I had to stop and look.


 

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I find it odd that in these sort of threads boars are so often placed in the same list of unworthy foes as rats and roaches. A wild boar is not some harmless piglet. We're talking about a large, aggressive animal with a nasty pair of tusks that will eat almost anything and can charge at high speeds. Their preferred method of attack is referred to by the verb "to gore". Historically, boar hunting was done with a hefty spear fitted with a strong cross-piece to prevent the boar from running down the shaft and taking you with it.

Boars are pretty much the scrappers of the animal kingdom.


 

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You know, I'm going into game design, and the more I look at other MMO's the more things I see bafflingly wrong about them, and the more things I see CoH doing right. If I ever get around to designing an MMO (and I hope to do so, look for it around November 2035), here is my big list of designer commandments.

1. Make the player feel special, powerful and IMPORTANT.
2. Playing in groups should be encouraged, and players should WANT to play in groups, but grouping should never be REQUIRED.
3. Never put a brick wall between a player and his real life friends. If two characters want to play together, they should be able to, level and skill differences be damned.
4. At the level cap the player should feel more powerful than 80% of the foes in the game.
5. Customization should only be as deep as a player wants it to be. If they want to tweak every nuance of their character, let them. But if they just want to forget about customization and play, also let them.

I might think of more, but these five are a good start.


 

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Originally Posted by LordSquigie View Post
Historically, boar hunting was done with a hefty spear fitted with a strong cross-piece to prevent the boar from running down the shaft and taking you with it.

Boars are pretty much the scrappers of the animal kingdom.
I know a guy who used to hunt them with a bow. He carried a .44 magnum pistol in case he missed and the boar charged him.

(Although I figure if anyone could handle a boar in hand-to-hand, it would be this guy. He sat at a computer all day and was built like Charles Atlas and was a competition power-lifter.)


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

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Originally Posted by Mr_Squid View Post
You know, I'm going into game design, and the more I look at other MMO's the more things I see bafflingly wrong about them, and the more things I see CoH doing right. If I ever get around to designing an MMO (and I hope to do so, look for it around November 2035), here is my big list of designer commandments.

1. Make the player feel special, powerful and IMPORTANT.
2. Playing in groups should be encouraged, and players should WANT to play in groups, but grouping should never be REQUIRED.
3. Never put a brick wall between a player and his real life friends. If two characters want to play together, they should be able to, level and skill differences be damned.
4. At the level cap the player should feel more powerful than 80% of the foes in the game.
5. Customization should only be as deep as a player wants it to be. If they want to tweak every nuance of their character, let them. But if they just want to forget about customization and play, also let them.

I might think of more, but these five are a good start.
I think that those five are pretty good.
Maybe that's why I've stayed with CoH so long.

I also think you have room to come up with more, regarding things like:
*Rate of progress should be steady. Not like grinding through quicksand, but not so fast that you hit the cap the first week and ask "Okay, now what?"
*PvP should be......<description>. Now define that description before you start and stick with it.
*Be willing to listen to your players. They have good ideas to improve the game they love and they are your customers. Conversely, know which of thier ideas are bad and will be detrimental in the long run.
*Keep communications open. Let the players know what is going on.