I can hear the howls now
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-10-31 10:07 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
TBH my strategy for normal missions is the same for both sides... I just jump in and kill stuff and if I'm on a squishy toon I hope my team is behind me.
The anal people who inherently ***** all the time because their teamates won't play the game exactly how they want them to play, will continue to *****. The good teamates who adapt to what their teamates are doing and just play the game to the best of their ability without worrying too much about how others play their toons, and realize this is just a video game, will continue to do that. Ultimately the same deal, with a few minor twists in that you'll be mixing at's more and mixing roles/playstyles, but then we already see that in cim and rwz.
Considering we've had co-op zones for a long time in Cim and RWZ leads me to believe that neither side is that clueless about the other.
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
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This.
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Originally Posted by TwinBlades_01
TBH my strategy for normal missions is the same for both sides... I just jump in and kill stuff and if I'm on a squishy toon I hope my team is behind me.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Uh, i play mostly blueside, and generally with people who are very experienced with the game, but i almost never see that behavior. The "hey, let me try something" or "hey guys watch this!" is far more common. Actually, it's more like the team pauses to assess the enemy, and then the debuffs and controls get thrown as the Tanker (if any) and other melee types charge into the fray. Lather, rinse, repeat. Particularly tough enemies or rooms may cause a longer pause to plan or pull a few groups, but it's hardly the norm.
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Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
It just occured to me, while thinking about Going Rogue and switching sides, how different the most common mission team tactics are between red and blue sides.
Blue: Recruit Fender and all follow Tank interspersed with the rare "hey, let me try something" or "hey guys watch this!". |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Amen to that.
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Originally Posted by TwinBlades_01
TBH my strategy for normal missions is the same for both sides... I just jump in and kill stuff and if I'm on a squishy toon I hope my team is behind me.
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So basically, people who are drama timebombs will continue to be drama timebombs, and the rest of us will carry on.
The Bacon Compels You.
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Indeed. Though time in Cim may give Brutes a bad rap. Too many unplanned speed-ITF's (meaning one or two people decide it will be a speed run without informing the rest of the team) with Brutes left a bad taste in my mouth. It's not that they weren't capable; the problem was the squishies left behind often were ambushed and flattened while someone rushed the crystals. It's all well and good to keep your Fury going, but if 3/4 of the team is dead it might be time to rethink things.|
Originally Posted by Chill_Out
Considering we've had co-op zones for a long time in Cim and RWZ leads me to believe that neither side is that clueless about the other.
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Though I'm more than willing to say that's a problem with ITF speed runs more than anything, I've never had trouble with Brutes in the RWZ.
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Oh? really? I think some of the D3 Tankfenders I've known would argue that. And the toggle-pulling defenders/controllers. And... |
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
Blue: Recruit Fender and all follow Tank interspersed with the rare "hey, let me try something" or "hey guys watch this!".
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Seriously, "Need tank and healer" (as I'm assuming that's what you *really* mean by "Defender") is so... "some other MMO." And so unneeded in this game, outside of "So I joined a PUG. I knew it was going to be bad when..." stories. What I generally see is "Group takes a spawn or two to work out mechanics, then either rolls or falls apart."
Well, maybe I just have inordinately bad luck with teams always wanting a Tank + "Healer" because their alternative tactics suck, but I doubt it's as uncommon as people seem to make it out to be. Or maybe, being vastly irritating, they just stick in my mind more.
Or maybe because I have been going through a rash of lowbie content lately with a lot of new characters. *shrugs*
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
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Could be all those things. i expect my experience is different because even on lowbie teams i usually end up teaming with skilled players drawn from four global channels. The tank+healer types are usually a minority of the team who tend to express surprise or outrage when they see how the team works without using the expected (to them) strategies. The ones who express surprise tend to join in after a few fights, and a surprising number of the outraged players quit because we're doing it wrong. It doesn't even seem to matter that we're rolling through the enemies at a good pace either.
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Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
Well, maybe I just have inordinately bad luck with teams always wanting a Tank + "Healer" because their alternative tactics suck, but I doubt it's as uncommon as people seem to make it out to be. Or maybe, being vastly irritating, they just stick in my mind more.
Or maybe because I have been going through a rash of lowbie content lately with a lot of new characters. *shrugs* |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I disagree. I think Brutes will be very popular with people who like a fast, energetic pace to missions, and get annoyed at Tanks that play like tortoises rather than armored spearheads.
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Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
Brutes especially, I predict, will get a bad rep from some people who don't realize WHY they are in such a hurry.
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You know, I play both sides of the fence, and I've seen both behaviors on both sides. Usually when I form redside teams they go pretty smooth. I tend to get one or two Brutes (often, I'm one of the Brutes), 2-4 Corrs, some Doms, and whatnot. As long as the Brutes are intelligent and the Corrs are supporting, there's no crazy nonsense and miscommunication. A good Brute, especially with Corrs backing them, can lead as well as a Tank can.|
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
Red:
Everyone enters mish and in a disorganized blob goes forth until they find a spawn. People spend all of 2 seconds tabbing through the enemy to see wth is there. The Stalkers slink up and find the Boss or Lt or potential problem dude and get ready. A MM might engage first, a Brute wanting to show off, a Corrupter who thinks he's hot stuff or a Dom with a new power he just HAS to try out now, or everyone just blasts/stomps/stabs pretty much all together. Make no mistake, most people know what their doing and know how to play their characters, but...it just feels much different than Heroside, more loose, more seat of the pants kinda play usually. Quite fun. Blue: Recruit Fender and all follow Tank interspersed with the rare "hey, let me try something" or "hey guys watch this!". |
On the other hand, I've also been on teams blueside where the Tank keeps doing stupid things and getting himself or other people killed. Or there is no Tank. Or heck, maybe there is a Tank but people don't feel the need to follow him.
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| All because (generalizing again) Heroes = specialists, Villains = generalists. |
But the thing that draws me to red ATs more is that every red AT deals good damage. Every red AT is designed with damage in mind, and every red AT added to a team is a damage dealer. Only two blue ATs are made with damage in mind.
That being said, my favorite ATs to have on a team are Brutes, Scrappers, Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, and Dominators.
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| Brutes especially, I predict, will get a bad rep from some people who don't realize WHY they are in such a hurry. Stalkers...people will be mindlessly following the guy and get mashed by a huge mob (done that myself once, sad to say), MMs will get yelled at (as usual) for blocking doorways and aggroing other spawns too probably. |
Scrappers will be questioned because who needs a Scrapper when you have a Brute, amirite? Same goes for Tanks. Brute does both jobs, tanking and damage dealing. Don't need those silly blue ATs, eh?
No need for Defenders. We've been doing fine with Corruptors for ages, so there's no need to reduce our damage out put to add in someone who buffs better.
What's a Blaster for? All they do is damage. Hey man, every AT we have already does that. Learn to do other stuff too, newb!
In a nutshell, blueside people will wonder what's up with those redsiders, and redside people will wonder what's up with those bluesiders. Lots of us have already interacted in RWZ, Cim, and Pocket D. This will mesh things together more and give us more of a chance to see what ATs are the nicest to have on a team, and which ones just aren't needed.
I'm excited for the AT-combining stuff. I want to start building teams that have Controllers, Corruptors, Brutes, Scrappers, Doms, and Blasters. I won't turn down the other ATs of course, but those are my favorites and I enjoy watching them work together.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yep. Like the folks that "have to do all of the banners at the same time" in a fully loaded zone because they need all of the badges NAO for an event that goes on for weeks. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
The anal people who inherently ***** all the time because their teamates won't play the game exactly how they want them to play, will continue to *****.
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Seriously, this banner event can't end fast enough for me. If I wanted to hear drama every few hours, I'd watch Oprah.
My main problem I know, will come from Fire/Fire Brutes wanting to burn down everything in sight. Or even worse, Masterminds dying on alpha's due to "I usually tank all the time" followed by "this never happens". Even so I hope many will learn that the tactic is the same.
I'm hoping both tanks and Brutes will work together to either pull bigger groups, or work to shred through enemies. I don't doubt that many a rad/rad or Ill/anything will try to be frontrunners with stories of glorious tanking ability. Either way I never bother to knock any tactic that makes me win. Just tired of dealing with ego's.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
I enjoyed the post and I agree- there are some hardcore bluesiders who will be surprised at the different play-styles that most of the red ATs offer. I don't think most of those players read the forums, so I wouldn't expect many here to see this happening personally, but I know it will happen to someone.
I still see Heroes (that have several Vet badges) that will say they have never teamed with a stalker or MM before. Sadly, they always assume that brutes are tanks too... Grr. I am NOT a tank. I suppose that is another thread entirely... heh
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
... all my blueside teams look like your descriptions of redside teams...
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Good point.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
But from the other perspective:
Scrappers will be questioned because who needs a Scrapper when you have a Brute, amirite? Same goes for Tanks. Brute does both jobs, tanking and damage dealing. Don't need those silly blue ATs, eh? No need for Defenders. We've been doing fine with Corruptors for ages, so there's no need to reduce our damage out put to add in someone who buffs better. What's a Blaster for? All they do is damage. Hey man, every AT we have already does that. Learn to do other stuff too, newb! |
Another point of interest might be:
Remember how hard it was to get your Stalker into a LRSF back in the day, or some Doms? If you were lucky you could sometimes get the pity spot though. Hell, I even encountered that while in my Elec/Elec Brute once, while inquiring of my VG LRSF about to happen!
"Sorry dude, we need a Stony or another Corrupter". I think they got one from Coalition. I won't burden you with my response. Come to think of it, a Stone tank will probably still be in demand no matter what or where.
I imagine everyone here has been excluded at least once or twice due to archetype preference and, I submit, if you havent then you just aint played enough. : ]
Anyway it will be interesting to see what the LRSF and the MSTF preferential dream team ends up being and who the latest red headed step children are (Stalker, PB, Offender, for instance) to those types of min-max dream team players.
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
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I'm obviously doing far too many PUGS, one of the evils of having my own SG/VG I guess.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
... all my blueside teams look like your descriptions of redside teams...
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Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
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Great post- I don't think scrappers will quite be in danger of being swapped out for brutes though. In my opinion, scrappers stack much better than brutes do. I don't halfway mind being one of many scrappers on a team. I do, however, mind being one of many brutes. I pretty much won't join a team with more than three brutes. I don't want to be competing for aggro *that* much just to maintain a respectable amount of fury. On teams like that, I will just swap to a different AT before I roll with one of my brutes.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
You know, I play both sides of the fence, and I've seen both behaviors on both sides. Usually when I form redside teams they go pretty smooth. I tend to get one or two Brutes (often, I'm one of the Brutes), 2-4 Corrs, some Doms, and whatnot. As long as the Brutes are intelligent and the Corrs are supporting, there's no crazy nonsense and miscommunication. A good Brute, especially with Corrs backing them, can lead as well as a Tank can.
On the other hand, I've also been on teams blueside where the Tank keeps doing stupid things and getting himself or other people killed. Or there is no Tank. Or heck, maybe there is a Tank but people don't feel the need to follow him. Usually what I see when I look at ATs is that heroes only do one thing, but do it really well. Villains tend to do more than one thing, and do it good enough. That's basically what you said. But the thing that draws me to red ATs more is that every red AT deals good damage. Every red AT is designed with damage in mind, and every red AT added to a team is a damage dealer. Only two blue ATs are made with damage in mind. That being said, my favorite ATs to have on a team are Brutes, Scrappers, Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, and Dominators. That may be a fair comparison of what BLUESIDE people will be thinking of the REDSIDE people when they come over. But from the other perspective: Scrappers will be questioned because who needs a Scrapper when you have a Brute, amirite? Same goes for Tanks. Brute does both jobs, tanking and damage dealing. Don't need those silly blue ATs, eh? No need for Defenders. We've been doing fine with Corruptors for ages, so there's no need to reduce our damage out put to add in someone who buffs better. What's a Blaster for? All they do is damage. Hey man, every AT we have already does that. Learn to do other stuff too, newb! In a nutshell, blueside people will wonder what's up with those redsiders, and redside people will wonder what's up with those bluesiders. Lots of us have already interacted in RWZ, Cim, and Pocket D. This will mesh things together more and give us more of a chance to see what ATs are the nicest to have on a team, and which ones just aren't needed. I'm excited for the AT-combining stuff. I want to start building teams that have Controllers, Corruptors, Brutes, Scrappers, Doms, and Blasters. I won't turn down the other ATs of course, but those are my favorites and I enjoy watching them work together. |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Oh, I agree on Scrappers. The thing with them is they don't have any gimmicks to do damage. A Brute who can't build fury does pretty crappy damage, as I can attest having played many non-lead Brutes. I got tired of playing "Scrapper" Brutes and started playing "Tank" Brutes a long time ago, so all my higher level ones are built to withstand high damage from lots of foes while maintaining high aggro. I have some nice WP, Inv, and Shield Brutes.|
Originally Posted by magikwand
Great post- I don't think scrappers will quite be in danger of being swapped out for brutes though. In my opinion, scrappers stack much better than brutes do. I don't halfway mind being one of many scrappers on a team. I do, however, mind being one of many brutes. I pretty much won't join a team with more than three brutes. I don't want to be competing for aggro *that* much just to maintain a respectable amount of fury. On teams like that, I will just swap to a different AT before I roll with one of my brutes.
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Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, once you have one or two Brutes, adding more just means there's a bunch of guys running around with 0.75 damage modifier who don't have any fury. At that point I'd MUCH rather have a Scrapper along.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Agreed. Out of tankers, brutes, and scrappers- I think scrappers stack optimally, followed by brutes, and lastly by tankers. If I were building an all melee team (that had to have at least one of each melee AT), I would want 4 scrappers, 2 brutes, 1 tank and 1 stalker.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Oh, I agree on Scrappers. The thing with them is they don't have any gimmicks to do damage. A Brute who can't build fury does pretty crappy damage, as I can attest having played many non-lead Brutes. I got tired of playing "Scrapper" Brutes and started playing "Tank" Brutes a long time ago, so all my higher level ones are built to withstand high damage from lots of foes while maintaining high aggro. I have some nice WP, Inv, and Shield Brutes.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, once you have one or two Brutes, adding more just means there's a bunch of guys running around with 0.75 damage modifier who don't have any fury. At that point I'd MUCH rather have a Scrapper along. |
... hmm, that actually sounds like a really fun team.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
basically, if everyone knew how to play to thier toons strong points there wouldn't be a problem. i do strongly disagree with the OPs assesment of common redside tactics. i've found that people coming from other MMOs -blueside being one of them- have problems with the hybrid nature of the villain ATs. the lines are a little blurred in in the rogue isles seeing as how the ATs, for the most part, are not your run-of-the-mill tank, dps, support.
people come to the redside and expect brutes to be the out-right tanks of the game. or corruptors to be out-right dps toons. that is not so.
after playing villains almost exclusively for close to 3 years now i have to say that i've found more of that type of incoherent blob behaviour blueside. only because there is a higher population blueside, therefore having an increased chance of encountering it. not by any inherhent faults of the game.
i will say that dispari makes some valid points though. why have defenders when you can have corruptors? and why scrappers when you can have brutes? generally speaking of course.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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Originally Posted by magikwand
Agreed. Out of tankers, brutes, and scrappers- I think scrappers stack optimally, followed by brutes, and lastly by tankers. If I were building an all melee team (that had to have at least one of each melee AT), I would want 4 scrappers, 2 brutes, 1 tank and 1 stalker.
... hmm, that actually sounds like a really fun team. |
that does sound like a really fun team!
just make sure someone has the medicine pool!
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
It just occured to me, while thinking about Going Rogue and switching sides, how different the most common mission team tactics are between red and blue sides.
Red:
Everyone enters mish and in a disorganized blob goes forth until they find a spawn. People spend all of 2 seconds tabbing through the enemy to see wth is there. The Stalkers slink up and find the Boss or Lt or potential problem dude and get ready. A MM might engage first, a Brute wanting to show off, a Corrupter who thinks he's hot stuff or a Dom with a new power he just HAS to try out now, or everyone just blasts/stomps/stabs pretty much all together. Make no mistake, most people know what their doing and know how to play their characters, but...it just feels much different than Heroside, more loose, more seat of the pants kinda play usually. Quite fun.
Blue: Recruit Fender and all follow Tank interspersed with the rare "hey, let me try something" or "hey guys watch this!".
All because (generalizing again) Heroes = specialists, Villains = generalists.
Brutes especially, I predict, will get a bad rep from some people who don't realize WHY they are in such a hurry. Stalkers...people will be mindlessly following the guy and get mashed by a huge mob (done that myself once, sad to say), MMs will get yelled at (as usual) for blocking doorways and aggroing other spawns too probably.
The RWZ and Cimeora probably mitigated a good deal of the omg factor of teaming with the opposite side, but I reckon people will still howl. Regardless, I think it's going to be amusing to see people try to handle all the differences and come up with "new" tactics using the different archtypes together.
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween