I can hear the howls now

Doesn't traditional MMO tank-support-DPS also involve a lot of "support must heal tank" and "stay back here while I pull" and stand where I tell you?

I'll take my "four blasters and a Force Fielder" teams. Four second spawnwipes are fun.

For me and the people I know at least, I think people will be pulling back from the "pure" ATs and focusing more on hybrid ones. We've already seen from the AT analysis that Tanks and Defenders are pretty unpopular ATs. They fulfill specific roles which redside has shown aren't that needed.

People will begin to notice that Corruptors can buff/debuff AND do damage. Brutes can tank AND do damage. The only thing stopping Scrappers from overtaking Tanks right now is their general inability to hold aggro due to the simple fact that they don't taunt.

I still take those ATs along from time to time, but if I had the choice, I'd much rather take a Brute over a Tank and a Corruptor over a Defender. Simple reason being both of those ATs do their job well enough that extra isn't needed. I have 3 Brutes who can handle spawns of 6 to 8 by themselves. If you add in a dash of support, 8 all the way. There's no reason I need to sacrifice damage to have extra inherent survival unless I'm for some reason planning for a team that has no support at all. And as long as Brutes and Corrs are doing tanking/supporting well enough, the other thing they bring is damage. And the best defense is a good offense.

My teams will be filled with Brutes, Scrappers, Corruptors, Controllers, Blasters, Dominators, and VEATs if I can get them. The other ATs will do in a pinch, but I find them to be too specialized to have the same sort of general contribution to a team that the ones I named offer. I'm not trying to claim that all blue ATs will be replaced with red ones, or all red ones will be replaced by blue ones. What I think will happen is that certain ATs, like Tanks, Defenders, and Stalkers will be shown to be too niche-y to be asked for regularly. Though, there will always be people who are stuck in their ways and insist on taking a Granite Tank to do newspapers.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Honestly, people aren't so precise. I've seen people flamed for the mere mention of the terms "Tank" (as distinct from the AT) and "healer". DPS doesn't seem to tick people off that much though.

+1

The reason people get irritated over "healer" is that, most of the time, the person advertising themselves as such is... well, a leech and/or not playing their character anywhere NEAR as well as they could.

The example that always comes to mind (from multiple personal experiences with the type) is a year or two ago during the halloween event. Trying to take down Eochai, we picked up a Rad/Rad corruptor. Who, it turns out, was a "healer." AOE heal aura, rez, AM... and that's it. No debuffs. Med pool, IIRC. And utterly useless for what we needed.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Bah, Rad/Rad isn't about heals!
Rad/Rad is about going "Bwhehehe, Freem beams! Laser eyes! Oh look, their eyes are bleeding orange! And their nose is melting! Kehehehehe!"

E.g. being somewhat rather awesome

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Eh, I play my Dark/SS tank because she's more like a scrapper that can survive scrapperlock.

Yes, I drag a team into scrapperlock, because that's how I roll, and people really will follow the tanker.

Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?

Personally, I won't invite anyone to a team that advertises themselves as a "healer". Too many bad experiences, so I just avoid the potential headaches now.

/e facepalm

Same here. Now if it is a fun person, all bets are off. You can use nothing but brawl and rest as far as I'm concerned if we're having a good time together. But I've developed a very short leash for folks that have 1 attack, call themselves a healer, and have a mommy complex.

There were some shots of concept art for the demons at HeroCon. They look like nothing else in game. The best general description I can come up with is that they look animalistic, sort of like a cross between a flesh golem, a crocodile, and a gorilla. Oh, and they have skulls for heads. If the artwork of Desdemona and her demons is to scale though, the Assault Bot might finally have competition for "largest pet." The tier 3 demon looks absolutely massive.

Right. Below is a shot of the concept art that was shown at Going Rogue.


It turns out the concept art is very similar to um... flesh golems? (IIRC one of the golems)... from Guild Wars, but apparently this is only concept art, the demons hadn't gotten to the modeling stage yet, and the final demons will not look exactly like this picture. However, they will apparently be similar, but more scaly. This is from Dev comments reported in assorted threads, but i leave it to someone more willing to search for the exact comment. Anyway, the above is the current concept art as of Hero Con.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

That's the pictures I saw. I'd say that at a minimum, they would be the only ones of the Mastermind pets to use the Beast skeleton animations. Assuming they don't get something completely new. In any case, the succubus is definitely not on the guest list for this particular set. (I'm not sure what the utility power for the set would be, but I'm pretty sure it won't be to summon a succubus, even as a temp pet. Not if Demon MMs are tapping into a realm where those things are normal.)

Speak for yourself.
You've obviously never seen 2 MMs steamroller +2 Positron and Valkyrie. Or a team with 3+ MMs obliterating absolutely everything stupid enough to get in the way.
Oh, and a Stalker can solo a Ballista. People always poo-poo them for no good reason.

Not everyone is so snarled up in min/max dps and stupid carp like that.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Most of this is crap anyway. Because heroside tends to be specialist, and you can use IO's to shore up what they're not good at their highs are better and on teams their lows are relatively nonexistant. Tell me, with all this Brutes>Tanks crap, once tanks come over, how often do you think you'll hear "RSF starting, lf stone tank!". Non-stone brutes are already sometimes not taken on it (for the same reasons that non-stone tanks aren't taken on the STF, because people are stupid); we already hear it on the ITF. I think for smart teams nothing will change, and you'll take buffs and debuffs, whoever gives them, defenders, trollers, MM's (they're the least likely because of some of the pet problems that tends to come along with them) or corrupters. But I'll still make teams based on what people want to play rather than some mythic omgwtfpwned team (unless I run my all storm TF's again....man those are fun!)

You MAY be right, for the very limited amount of content you specified. LRSF, STF, and ITF are pretty much the only times when incoming damage is going to be so significantly high that the bonus health and numbers from a Tank would really be "necessary," depending on your team makeup. When I do those things, I tend to have at least 4 of the team be support such as Corruptors or VEATs, and we have no issues keeping Brutes alive. So me and my friends won't be dropping everything to take a Stone Tank.

Now, there more than likely WILL be SOME people who are calling for Tanks, specifically Stone, for LRSF, STF, and ITF. But the amount of content those things represent is rather tiny. I don't see any people shouting that they have to have a Stone Brute to run newspapers, or to do Ghost Widow's arc, or to run a respec trial. And I seriously doubt that's going to change for the vast majority of people.

Yeah, there will always be people who think it's physically impossible for a team to function without a Stone + Kin, and if they fail it's because they didn't have enough Kin. Or delay starting an ITF for 30 minutes looking for a Stone Tank and ignoring the perfectly capable WP Brute over there. But you can hardly consider those people to be the norm.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Like the guy who was attempting to run a Ship raid on Union with specifically made team builds he had drawn up. As soon as he said 'Who here has a kin?' I knew that it was only going to get worse.

So I took over ^^
I've run ship raids before, and that was the first time ever that anyone had come up with that sorta garbage before...

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I more or less agree with you. My only point was is that people don't generally say "I don't want tanks, I have brutes", they say "Oh, you have a tank, come along!" People aren't going to say no to tanks just because they have, say, scrappers on the team, and they're not generally going to say it with brutes, if only because most people don't give a crap what you bring, they see that someone's active and looking for a team, and they're like, "oh, cool!" This is especially true on the lower population servers. Even on the high pop. ones like freedom and virtue, I've, in the past few days, been on multi-tank teams, and tanks are probably the AT that stacks the worst.

For high end optimized teams, yeah, you're not likely to see things like tanks, but then you're not likely to now. The most optimized team is 8 fire/rads anyway right? (or so I've heard). Most people, me included, don't give a crap what you bring, they're just happy to have another person on the team.

i can't agree with this line of thought more. i've always like CoV because the ATs were not overly specialized. in my comparitively small amount of time playing other MMOs i've found the style of play painfully slow, CoH included. there are of course exceptions, namely scrappers overall and a couple specific builds of tank and trollers. but in my three years here i am continually shocked by the fact that more people can't seem to get into life in the rogue isles. that's why i am sincerly looking forward to GR. i hope that it is the shot-in-the-arm that CoX needs. i mean, you can lead a horse to water an all............

Actually, me and the people I know would. I'm not saying I cross my arms and go "NO TANKS!! " but I'm not going to actively seek one if I have a Brute. Once support is taken care of, I stop looking for support. Once I have a Brute, I'm not going to look for a Tank.

And why would I? Think about it. If a Brute can tank, what do I need a Tank for? What's he going to do? Not die even better? Invent new levels of staying alive? He's sure not going to contribute damage the way a Brute would.

It's worth saying that I have at least 6 Brutes that can handle +2/x6. Three of which can do +2/x8. The WP one can do that WITHOUT IOs. And that's solo. On a team, when we're talking about having at least a Corruptor or Controller or somebody to heal/buff/debuff? Unless your Brute and/or support are just tragically bad (in which case the Tank would be just as bad off), that Brute's not going to die.

Imagine you're on a team with 4 Controllers. And there's a Defender standing over there. Now I'm not saying "Oh maybe he's a kin and we could use that," I'm talking all your bases are covered with those Controllers. You have buffs, debuffs, RES, DEF, and heals out the wazoo. Now are you going to stand up and go "Oh boy, we sure need a Defender!" I doubt it.

Scrappers aren't Brutes. The HP difference is more significant than it seems. And one thing many of my Brutes have in common is that they go over 75% RES at times. That aside, the major difference is that Brutes taunt, while Scrappers don't. Some Scrapper sets have a taunt aura, but I'm talking... every Foot Stomp, every Whirling Axe, every Thunderstrike is taunting foes and making sure they don't attack allies. Not dying is only part of the tanking equation; the other part is taunting and holding aggro. The only reason Scrappers aren't taking up Tank jobs right now is that they can't hold aggro like a Brute or Tank can.

If this is how it goes, then there's really no point to this argument at all. But in my experience this is the exception and not the rule. People might just throw a Tank on a team even if they have 4 Brutes. But if they're as random and carefree as you suggest, there's also nothing stopping them from just filling up a team with Blasters and Stalkers and having them all die because they're uncoordinated and incapable (not that good players couldn't make it work).

In my experience, even PUGs put some thought into their team makeup. Those that don't don't tend to last very long after they form a totally incapable team and then run off and wipe several times in the first mission. People learn what works and what doesn't. And most people who are giving it any thought wouldn't intentionally go recruit a bunch of tanks (Brute or Tank), because there's no point in having more than one, maybe two tanks.

The teams I prefer to build are:

1-2 Brutes / Tanks
2-4 Corrs or VEATs (MMs) / Controllers (Defenders)
1-4 Dominators (Stalkers) / Scrappers, Blasters (HEATs)

Things in parenthesis are ATs I'll take, but not my first choice. Once things roll around, it'll look more like:

1-2 Brutes (Tanks)
2-4 Corrs, Controllers, VEATs (Defenders, MMs)
1-4 Dominators, Blasters, Scrappers (Stalkers, HEATs)

I vary and work around it when necessary. It's not a definite rule. It's just a nice formula I live by, because it's pretty foolproof

Like I said, I'm not going to refuse Tanks on my team. But if I have to pick between Brute and Tank, I'll probably take Brute. And if I already have a Brute, I'm definitely not going to look for a Tank. The ATs I named as my primary choice are more of a "general assistance, help the team out" style, while the others are more of an "I can only do one thing" style. True, Blasters only do one thing, but it's not like damage is ever wasteful. There's no point in adding a Tank if you already have a Brute who can tank.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Coming from someone who, when he plays blasters, plays that crazy ******* blaster, I appreciate a tank on the team far more than a brute.....I pull a lot of aggro when I play my blaster, even off tanks. I've been on tankless teams and the thing is, they don't tank as well.

It's really neither here nor there, and the real question is will complete co-op make certain AT's useless, and I don't think so. Otherwise all I'm looking for is MM's.

I don't think side-switching will make certain ATs useless. I think the general trend of each AT will continue. Tanks, Defenders, and Stalkers will still be few and far between because other ATs do what they do and more. I think side-switching will just make that more apparent.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.