Disappointed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow I apologise for quote-snipping, but I'd like to interject here. If you don't involve opinions, it's not a debate. It's proof of thesis. A debate is inherently based not on facts, but on the interpretation of such facts. To expect that a debate has a single, universal solution that it must invariably reach if all parties act properly is unrealistic. Reaching a deadlock where all parties disagree and no party will concede and budge from its opinion is also a perfectly valid conclusion to a debate. As long as it's handled fairly and without malice, I don't see why a debate cannot simply be a statement of opinion and a defence thereof. You don't have to be right as long as you have a point.

You're right. I should have elaborated on that point.

Yes, debates ARE about opinions. But you can't justify/prove opinions with more opinions. That's what I was trying to get at. You cannot say "God exists because I think he does exist! And that's my opinion! End of discussion." Edit: Well, you can. It just won't be a debate with a non-trivial conclusion.

Ok, so you'd only argue that the sky is blue if you had no eyes to see it, gotcha. This implies that you do indeed have eyes to see that the sky is blue.

Now let's apply this to your video game arguement. In a video game we have a story, this is art.

In a video game we have pictures, this is art.

In a video game we have cinematics, which is art.

In a video game we have music, which is art.

So if we add this obviously art things together and call the result a video game, then this means video games are art. Simple math. Art + art + art + art = Art. Or Artx4 if you want to get picky.

I know - but I was just going by how they've said that Praetorians will have to choose to go blue or red around level 20, meaning that a 1-50 path in Praetoria doesn't seem to be likely, meaning there'd be no need for constant 1-50 content there.
I think they might have clusters of missions at 25, 30, 35, 40, 45 and 50 for Heroes and Villains to use to switch sides, plus possibly repeating contacts at those levels for Praetorians to use when they came back to Praetoria from Paragon City of the Rogue Isles.

That's not only not real math, it's also... very oversimplified? I thought art, among other things, was supposed to be more than the sum of its parts? That it transcended its mere components and was able to convey feeling or evoke a response, whether that response be positive or negative.

MY GOD I THINK HE'S GOT IT.

You're right! If a bunch of art put together (art being something that is the sum of more than it's own constituent parts), then that means the sum of all that art is also more than the sum of it's parts! Which is like greater than the sum of all parts twice in a row!

And I don't know about you, but video games certainly evoke a response from me. Generally either "Holy **** this is awesome" or "...that sucked."

That too is very oversimplified. If a painter paints a work of art, and another artist creates an artistic picture frame, the combination of the two might not "transcend" the basic juxtaposition of painting and frame, but that doesn't mean the combination is disqualified from being an overall work of art.

I think this is an example of defining something in terms of its highest exemplars, rather than its fundamentals.

I think the real issue in this context is "can an 'artist' be a group of people?" If artists aren't required to be individuals, then its much more obvious that CoH isn't a "collection" of art, its a singular piece of art created by the artist "Paragon Studios" with different parts worked on by different people. If a sculpture was created by ten different people, with some working on the feet, some working on the face, some working on the hair, would it be more debatable as to whether the final sculpture was a work of art than if one person did it alone? In my opinion, not really.

Uhm... yeeeeeah...

I don't think faux math or its extrapolation thereof is exactly stellar, much less salient proof. x.x

Look beyond the tools being used, young Coyote, look at the point I was trying to get across.

I'm not trained in debating, I'm not nearly as logical as some of these other posters, so I've got to go with what will get my point across as simply as possible. In this case: Oversimplified faux math.

I don't recall anyone anywhere ever saying that any piece of art absolutely had to have only a single artist who created it. Certainly most movies couldn't be done with just one person doing everything that was required.

This is side-stepping the issue though. Were videogames a form of art when it was just a single programmer trying to squeeze a game into four kilobytes of space? Was that his or her intention, when they were making it? What about nowadays?

Not that I'm saying that the intention of the creator is what makes something art or not, since a lot of times, art is in the eye of the beholder. But I still think it's important to consider.

Also it's becoming quite apparent that arguing about art is a lot like arguing about religion or politics (or operating systems!). Perhaps the subject should be banned from the board for the same reasons? Haha.

But it did have content to get you from 1-40, becuase that was the intention of the game design - but the intention of the GR game design is to move Praetorians out of Praetoria long before they get near to 50.
There has to be new content for all levels, to allow for side switching, but it doesn't have to allow a 1-50 path, unlike CoV.

Sam, CoV borrowed lots of things from CoH (costume pieces, game engine, powersets, tilesets, etc. - it has since donated a lot of its content back to CoH: all costumes, some powersets, plus tilesets/maps used in Faultline/RWZ content etc.), but the zones and missions were all new - and in terms of the number of contacts/missions I don't think you can say CoV had diddly squat content compared to CoH - I agree with GG in that respect. In fact CoH has so much filler (arcs/TFs with repeat missions, hunts, etc) I'm tempted to argue CoV has more non-TF/SF unique mission content than CoH has.

That's still mostly assumption though, GG - you don't know the intention is definitely to move Praetorians out of Praetoria at 20 - just that it's an option. All we know is that Praetoria has 1-20 content and that native Praetorian characters are forced to choose loyalist/redside or resistance/blueside at 20 - beyond that it's all speculation (unless I've missed out on seeing some dev info from Herocon).

I'm still hoping it will be possible to level 1-50 in Praetoria without going to Paragon City or the Rogue Isles (unless you want to) - I think GR does need that - especially as, like Nethergoat noted, the Devs have the MA tools now which should enable them to churn out content much faster, and at similar/higher quality to CoV (and certainly higher than pre-CoV) standards. I won't be massively disappointed if it doesn't happen, but that's what I hope, because new Dev-created mission content is almost always top of my list of things I want to see added to the game.

When MA was close to release we kept hearing how it would enable the Devs to produce content more easily - and how MA was first developed as a tool for the Devs to make mission creation easier and more intuitive (but that they later decided to release it to us) - yet so far we haven't seen any evidence of the Devs being able to churn out content faster - in fact the past few issues have had precious little new Dev-created mission content.

I believe the reason for that is that the Devs have been busy creating lots of content for Going Rogue. Almost every new feature so far, both in recent issues (Mission Architect, Power Customisation) and most of what has been announced so far for GR (side-switching, ultra-mode), has presumably kept the artists, animators, programmers, etc. busy - but what have the mission/zone designers (like War Witch) been doing? What about all the new hires? Sure, AE and power customisation must have been very work-intensive, but they're out now and presumably the whole Dev team is focused mainly on GR.

I believe/hope the Devs intend for Going Rogue to be a new game experience from 1-50 that will show off everything they have learned in the past 5 years - something to attract new subscribers (as I think a CoH+CoV+GR box will be hot on the heels of the GR expansion release) and hold on to the rest of us. This is their chance to "set their stall out" against the new generation of MMOs (and in particular the next superhero MMO competitor in line - DCUO - even though I think that game is going to have a very different gameplay focus and payment method to CoH).

It's a dream I have

Also, regardless of the intent behind an expansion or expanshalone, if the Devs expect me to pay the same box price for GR as I did for CoV (and yes, we don't know that yet), then I'll expect a comparative amount of content, or more (considering the MA advantage). Of course if I'm still enthusiastic about playing CoH when GR is released (and that may depend as much on SW:TOR as it does on CoH) then I'll buy it anyway, but I might feel somewhat hard done by if GR is as light on mission content as recent issues have been (AE is a bit too much of a lucky dip sometimes, and I love lore so canonical story-telling will always be more important to me).

All I know is, I would at this point be willing to part with a small sum of actual currency in exchange for the pair'a ya putting a cork in it.

I'd be willing to go halves with you on that

My view of the rep system, in that reputation shouldn't be represented by a number in a field, but rather by the opinions others hold for me, is cause for me to get negative reputation that's never actually going to show up anywhere? I mean, I can see the "tone" side of the comment, but giving me negative reputation because I don't feel reputation should matter and I'm not showing mine... Doesn't seem to follow. Can someone explain this to me? Or is that because of my airing my reputation?

I'm sorry, stranger, but I just don't follow.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Quality doesn't enter into it. Whether or not CoV's missions, arcs or zones are better or not is up for debate, but even if I were agree that they were, the fact remains that CoH had and has significantly more content in terms of quantity. Twice to three times the amount of zones, several times the arcs, most of them several times longer, many times the filler missions. It goes on and on. And, no. CoV did not in the slightest have enough content to bring you through its levels when it came out. It was a game-wide problem, but the game ran out of content for me at level 38.

Again, better or not, CoV's content is significantly, significantly more scarce, and that's especially true if we count CoV-only content. For the most part, City of Heroes has three zones and a dozen contacts overlapping any 5-level range. CoV's 20-25 range has I think 6, each with one or two 3-mission arcs and only a single zone.

All I'm saying is that to say CoV had so, so very much and Going Rogue will have almost nothing isn't exactly fair. For one, I've no doubt there will be things to do in Praetoria 20-50. For another, it's not like CoV had that much to compare to. It has a lot now, certainly, but a lot has been added. I don't think Going Rogue would make it as a standalone game, but then I don't believe CoV would have made it as a standalone game, either.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I just wanted to point out, if you want to reply to me, you should quote me accurately.

It's not 'art is art, because I said so' it's 'art is art, because most of humanity says so'

Since you haven't adequately explained why it ISN'T art, I'll go along with most of humanity on this one. Demanding that everyone else make the case to your satisfaction, when you're the one with the divergent opinion is what is close minded, especially when you try to maintain the veneer of open mindedness.

Now, if you actually want to discuss what I said, instead of cherry picking my post, feel free.

The qualitative nature of Art is subjective. The basic definitions of whether something is or isn't artistic expression aren't. Trying to argue that something is or isn't art is a tactic people have used for a long time to promote their own brands of intellectual snobbery. It avoids the real point of the discussion, the qualitative nature of a work, and whether it has or even needs value in order to be a good thing.

That's why I said your stance is close minded. It completely short circuits the truly valuable avenues of discussion available, the ones where people can learn and express their feelings.

Hmmm, there was that position at Paragon Studios for a new skeletal animator... wait, you know something, don't you, GG?

You heard it here first, folks - horses in I17/GR!

With animated manes...

I was meaning RL horses

As awesome as in-game horses would be, I don't think they're a major selling feature for a superhero game

Unless... they're super ponnies and ... the land f magic reflects in their eyes.


Just to have things clear in my head, from now and up until probably april or may 2010 we won't get any sort of content/features added ?

Talk is cheap.

Show me the money!

GR will not significantly increase subs. Nothing this game has done in either direction has had a profound impact on the stable population. This will be no different.

On a different note, there was an article posted a short while ago citing CoX as one of the top 5 games in need of a facelift. The outcry that generated on these boards was a good read. It would appear that someone important was feeling the same as said article writer.