I kinda miss 'Epic' badges
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2009-09-22 09:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Badges that take lots of big numbers => badges that people farm for.
I think the future of badges for bragging rights mostly lies in things more like the Master Of... series, if this issue is any indication.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Nothing wrong wth having to work for badges.
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I really do hope you are not implying that farming equals exploiting. |
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
That's great. I'm really glad that Paragon Devs have chosen to address the farming issues for badges by making it so that you can earn more of them through regular play. Not only are people less likely to use exploits to earn badges, but they can earn the badges they want in a reasonable amount of time rather than farming for months and months.
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While I am not in the habit of speaking for farming, when it comes to badges... Seriously, 1000 Rikti monkeys, run around one certain mission in Ouro for a while or visit the island and you can get that one done in no time at all. That would constitute farming them.
Exploiting is maliciously abusing a flaw in the game without reporting said flaw.
There is a difference. Do not mix those words, especially when it comes to badges. People put a LOT of effort in to obtain badges, so (unintentionally) calling them exploiters seems awkward at best..
In my eye, "epic" badges are accolades.
A badge that takes a long time to earn doesn't have to be repetitive. An "epic" badge should require multiple events. Not one event that just takes a ridiculously long time. For instance, compare:
Epic Badge 1:
Kill 500 Council
Kill 500 Lost or Rikti
Kill 500 Freakshow
Kill 100 bosses (any type)
Kill 10 arch-villains (any type)
Complete 100 missions
Epic Badge 2:
Kill 10,000 bosses (any type)
The first one has variety and allows you to do different things. You could even work on one requirement while doing others (fight freakshows, bosses, and do missions at the same time). The second one would get tiring and is just tons and tons of the exact same thing. There's no variety and eventually people would just resort to farming something in a specific place. It's really just bad design.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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You seem a bit sensitive about that. This post comes off as very combative.|
Originally Posted by __Eh__
There is a difference. Do not mix those words, especially when it comes to badges. People put a LOT of effort in to obtain badges, so (unintentionally) calling them exploiters seems awkward at best..
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In my experience, farming and exploiting tend to go hand-in-hand. In real life, among coworkers, friends, and other acquaintances, I've never met any MMO player who was willing to farm who was also not willing to use an exploit. The number of farmers I've met in CoH who were not also exploiters is better, but still more than 30% or so. (Yes, I do petition when I see exploits happen.)
That's not a blanket statement or a generalization. That's a summary of my experience. Place me along the bell curve where you will.
Farming and exploiting come from the same player desire -- the want to obtain rewards without earning them through the regular course of play. The difference between the two is that one doesn't cross the line of breaking the in-game rules. Accordingly, where there is an opportunity for farming, exploiters will also be present. Even if you don't like the association, it's still there.
Weeds grow in the same field as corn, after all.
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This. I really, really hope. Just because of being able to say "we did something" without having to add "leaving characters sit night after night in a farm" or something similar. |
Originally Posted by Kelenar
I think the future of badges for bragging rights mostly lies in things more like the Master Of... series, if this issue is any indication.
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(F'rinstance, I happen to like Efficiency Expert. It's somethign that, yes, you *can* fail. I've wanted to see ranked ones for the "Prevent 30 fir bolg from escaping" that only count on your mission, the first time you run it. That sort of thing.)
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
I think the future of badges for bragging rights mostly lies in things more like the Master Of... series, if this issue is any indication.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
This. I really, really hope. Just because of being able to say "we did something" without having to add "leaving characters sit night after night in a farm" or something similar.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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If I came across as combative, that was not at all the intention, so my apologies for that. |
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Weeds grow in the same field as corn, after all.
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And while I agree that there is a fine line between farming and exploiting, many people will not enjoy seeing their efforts grouped in the same filing cabinet as E for Exploit.
I myself will occasionally go out of my way to a badge, but I do so to unlock things, like weapons, or obtain an accolade. Spending an evening taking out overseers in Firebase Zulu doesn't sound like exploiting to me. So it shouldn't be held close to it either. But that's an opinion.
I do think we're on the same page, I just wanted to make sure that you weren't calling the two the same thing, that's all. And you didn't judging from your explanation.
Farming: Not in itself bad
At least: When it comes to badges
Especially: For Weapon badges: etc
Farming: A mission with broken exp: Counts as Exploit
Differences: Understood
Clear: Hopefully
All your badges: Will belong to me: someday
Soon: TM 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I dislike the infatilization of badge awards.
Maybe some of the REALLY outlandish #'s could have used adjusting, but when someone like me who doesn't care about badges logs in an old 50 and gets 11 of them that's too far in the other direction.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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My take on it is that there's also a pretty fine line between farming and playing. If you want to go and slaughter monkeys for hours on Monkey Island for kicks, that's 'playing'. If you were doing it to earn the badges associated with it, that's 'farming'. The difference between the two is the amount of enjoyment you get out of it.|
Originally Posted by __Eh__
I do think we're on the same page, I just wanted to make sure that you weren't calling the two the same thing, that's all. And you didn't judging from your explanation.
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I try to always place myself far, far away from the line, strictly for the sake of my own enjoyment and stress levels. If I catch the game making me 'work' at all, I log out.
I completely understand the desire to 'work' for rewards, but avoid it in the context of the game. When I mention 'farmers' and 'exploiters' in the same breath it's only because the situation that creates one has the potential to create the other.
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Wha?!?! You had me onboard until that. Farming is the regular course of play. It is the fundamental action required for any crafting based system, the repetitive gathering of resources. Farming has NOTHING to do with wanting to obtain rewards outside the regular game play, rather it is akin to maximizing your efficiency to gather such rewards.|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Farming and exploiting come from the same player desire -- the want to obtain rewards without earning them through the regular course of play. The difference between the two is that one doesn't cross the line of breaking the in-game rules. Accordingly, where there is an opportunity for farming, exploiters will also be present. Even if you don't like the association, it's still there. Weeds grow in the same field as corn, after all. |
Where we see the confusion is that the efficiency of farming attracts those who desire immediate rewards. It is that mindset, not the Farming mindset, that develops into exploiting.
To parallel your final statement...
Drive by shooters drive on the same road as School bus drivers after all.
If you want an 'epic' badge, try working for the portable crafting table accolade. You need a few billion inf and a truck load of salvage for that little beauty... My attempt is still a work in progress
Characters:
The Heroic Mary Grace (50)
The Mystical Thunderspark (50)
The Candy-loving Little Jenny (50)
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I don't think it's some kind of value judgement. To my eye, what is being called "the regular course of play" in this instance is more along the lines of what someone with no particular interest in a specific reward outside of the gameplay would experience. So, maybe a few story arcs here and there, newspaper missions, maybe a few AE arcs... To make the phrase less loaded, I think I would call it "unfocused" play.|
Originally Posted by Calash
Farming is the regular course of play. It is the fundamental action required for any crafting based system, the repetitive gathering of resources. Farming has NOTHING to do with wanting to obtain rewards outside the regular game play, rather it is akin to maximizing your efficiency to gather such rewards.
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By farming, you're taking yourself out of that mindset to focus your play experience on the rewards and how to achieve them. Therefore, you play the game in a manner most advantageous to the accumulation of the desired reward.
The final extension of this would be the exploiters, who take advantage of holes in the system to maximise the rewards while minimising the effort to a degree below what is considered acceptable. So, personally, I see farmers and exploiters as being on the same spectrum, but they share a square/rectangle relationship when used in this sense. Exploiters might be farmers, but farmers are not necessarily exploiters.
I'm glad the badges were cut. I feel that most badges should be something that can be received with only a slight deviation from unfocused gameplay.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
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Ack, that first one needs to be split up even more. Even requiring 100 defeats of a single enemy type is pushing it in my book.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
In my eye, "epic" badges are accolades.
A badge that takes a long time to earn doesn't have to be repetitive. An "epic" badge should require multiple events. Not one event that just takes a ridiculously long time. For instance, compare: Epic Badge 1: Kill 500 Council Kill 500 Lost or Rikti Kill 500 Freakshow Kill 100 bosses (any type) Kill 10 arch-villains (any type) Complete 100 missions Epic Badge 2: Kill 10,000 bosses (any type) The first one has variety and allows you to do different things. You could even work on one requirement while doing others (fight freakshows, bosses, and do missions at the same time). The second one would get tiring and is just tons and tons of the exact same thing. There's no variety and eventually people would just resort to farming something in a specific place. It's really just bad design. |
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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How can you craft with any efficacy then? If there is no interest in rewards why craft at all?|
Originally Posted by Basilisk
I don't think it's some kind of value judgement. To my eye, what is being called "the regular course of play" in this instance is more along the lines of what someone with no particular interest in a specific reward outside of the gameplay would experience. So, maybe a few story arcs here and there, newspaper missions, maybe a few AE arcs... To make the phrase less loaded, I think I would call it "unfocused" play.
By farming, you're taking yourself out of that mindset to focus your play experience on the rewards and how to achieve them. Therefore, you play the game in a manner most advantageous to the accumulation of the desired reward. The final extension of this would be the exploiters, who take advantage of holes in the system to maximise the rewards while minimising the effort to a degree below what is considered acceptable. So, personally, I see farmers and exploiters as being on the same spectrum, but they share a square/rectangle relationship when used in this sense. Exploiters might be farmers, but farmers are not necessarily exploiters. I'm glad the badges were cut. I feel that most badges should be something that can be received with only a slight deviation from unfocused gameplay. |
Farming attracts those who like to exploit, this is a truth that I would never argue. But farming being of the same breed as exploiting..that is very wrong.
To the badges, they should be something you have to work for. Sure some can be easy to stumble on but some should require time and effort to gain. Why even bother having them if you get them almost by accident?
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This
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
I kinda don't.
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Epic badges imo are more akin to the Master of Statesman Task Force. Something hard, not grindy.
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Sounds about right to me. You got those badges by playing the game a lot, which is, IMO, exactly how they should be earned.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
when someone like me who doesn't care about badges logs in an old 50 and gets 11 of them
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
I want a badge that requires you to defeat one of every enemy that can spawn outdoors on your side of the law. Every minion, every lieutenant, every boss. The Tsoo boss hunts alone would be epic.
It would be hilarious, while at the same time being the penultimate "anti-farm."
And as for the reduced requirements, I agree with many of them. Like the inf badges. Before I engaged in "aberrant behavior" for the sake of a badge (hunting Dark Astoria until my eyes bled on double XP weekend) my main badger, whom I have played a lot over the last four years, was around the 500 mil inf mark. Four years of fairly regular normal play...that's about right for an epic badge.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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That may be true, but earning it still means something.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
If/until they disallow the -1 setting from Master runs, this will sadly not be the case. I find the coolness of the badges lessened by the fact there's no way to know if someone did it on Easy mode or not.
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My badger has Isolator. No one but me knows that I worked on it for months, checking for a Contaminated in the RV train station. How I got it doesn't change the fact that I have it.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
There should only be a VERY small handfull of epic badges in the game. Badges that show that the player contributed a large amount of either time or effort to get that achievement.
Now while the old epic badges did reflect this, it also made people have to farm for them since a lot of them was unrealistic to get via normal gameplay.
The master of **** badges are a good addition since they do require a certain level of skill and deserve their epic status.
However imo there are a lot of potential epic badges out there that simply are begging to be added.
- Defeat hamidon badge - might prove unpopular but it shows you've defeated the greatest enemy ingame.
- Master of Silos badge - with that many AVs in the final mission, it deserves a badge of some sort. Though it would be the easiest master of badge to get so in that respect not the best of ideas.
- Master Explorer badge - collect 95%+ of the current exploration badges.
- Stuck in time badge - using ouroboros, do a single arc in each of the level ranges [non badge missions].
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Originally Posted by Thunderspark
If you want an 'epic' badge, try working for the portable crafting table accolade. You need a few billion inf and a truck load of salvage for that little beauty... My attempt is still a work in progress
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Originally Posted by MrPlayskool
Epic badges imo are more akin to the Master of Statesman Task Force. Something hard, not grindy.
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Field Crafter definitely fits my definition of 'Epic'. The way I prefer to work on it is to craft dropped common IO recipes with dropped salvage. By the time you reach 45 or so, there are definitely some gaps which have to be filled via buying and selling on the market. There's simply not as much call for Hold IOs as their are for Damage IOs. However, if you've done the crafting all along, you probably have far more than enough.
I always tell people that Field Crafter is relatively inexpensive, but that's only true if you gradually peck at it the way I do.
MoSTF is slightly less epic, but that may be due to my past MMO experience. Once upon a time, I participated in an Everquest raiding guild. Depending on the encounter, it required a level of concentration and coordination that isn't necessary in CoH outside of, maybe, fighting the Hamidon. I earned my Duckstick the old-fashioned way, by raiding for every piece of it. It took literally months, and required me to do lots of legwork and organization. In the process, I helped lots of other players earn their class-specific epic quest weapons as well. Not only did they become parts of my 'epic experience', but I was a part of theirs as well.
MoSTF requires you to organize 8 people and learn 5 missions really well. It's fun, exciting, and there are lots of neat tactics you can use in various places. If you take the time to learn it and build a small group of friends who are thoughtful, quality players, it can be done with relative ease.
I would certainly love more encounters like MoSTF, MoDr. K, and MoITF but I'd also like more stuff to do like Field Crafter, and pre-nerf Archmage and Vanguard accolades.
I loved that Illusionist was hard, but was part of the highly-useful Archmage accolade.
I liked Venomous anyway, just because it was hard. Hunt for a few spiders while LGTFs were organizing, take care to to tag them during STFs, and gradually build your count for the badge. You *could* do something to farm them, like run one mission of the STF over and over again, but the fun way to do it is to gradually work for it.
That's ultimately what I want -- more piddly rewards to gradually work for. Heck, it's even better if they're not tied to content or special abilities!
I knew that I was going to get a slew of badges when i16 went live. When the day came, I got badges like 'Venomous', 'Illusionist', 'Master at Arms', 'Demolitionist', and others that I'd been slowly working on for a while without ever really 'farming' for them.
It was really anti-climatic. I felt a little cheated.
I also know, that should I choose to begin working on them, certain badges that are somewhat AT-specific like the various Heal badges have dramatically lowered requirements.
That's great. I'm really glad that Paragon Devs have chosen to address the farming issues for badges by making it so that you can earn more of them through regular play. Not only are people less likely to use exploits to earn badges, but they can earn the badges they want in a reasonable amount of time rather than farming for months and months.
I also understand that adding new badges in with more difficult requirements would be undoing a lot of that work, even if the badges did not unlock special abilities, costume pieces, or other content. People would begin farming and trying to use exploits to obtain them again, simply in a race to be first, best, or for the sake of obsession.
I still wish that there were badges like that to work for-- badges that had to be pecked at over weeks or even months in the course of regular play.
To the Paragon devs, I thank you for your hard work and the attention to detail required by such a delicate balancing act. If you can see ways to work this kind of badge challenge back into the game, please do so!