A Rant About i16 (undocumented changes to TFs lead to bugs...big surprise)
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2009-09-20 12:49 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I am still very confused concerning the expectation that the devs inform us of bugs before they've actually been found. I'm pretty sure if the devs had that capability they would've taken James Randi up on his offer and cashed in on proving psychic powers rather than making a superhero MMO.
There is no process in the world that could catch these sort of things outside of checking every single piece of anything in the game any time there's a new patch. Logging changes made doesn't cut it when (at least from an outsider's perspective) the game's programming works like the chaos theory - a butterfly in England can cause an earthquake in Brazil. |
Lets see, he didnt ask to be informed of bugs(reading comprehension ftw) he asked to be informed of changes, so we could test for bugs. the game doesnt usually substitute maps, that is usually hard coded in. He had no problem with the new map, just that the bug with the glowies went live because no one knew to test for it. A quick run through would have shown this easy during beta. Simple quality control.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Quote:
You're still missing the point. I don't think any knew the maps were changed. So it's very difficult for testers to find such a bug. |
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
Lets see, he didnt ask to be informed of bugs(reading comprehension ftw) he asked to be informed of changes, so we could test for bugs. the game doesnt usually substitute maps, that is usually hard coded in. He had no problem with the new map, just that the bug with the glowies went live because no one knew to test for it. A quick run through would have shown this easy during beta. Simple quality control.
|
Having been in many betas here I can tell you many folks test the new additions/changes that are noted in patch notes, etc. They don't randomly test previous content unless specifically asked by the dev team. Well, most testers anyway.
Quote:
This is a slightly educated guess, but I suspect its got more to do with tools.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I do agree with your assertion that many bugs and many items break in this game from Issue to Issue. I wish it were more streamline as well. I just wonder if this happens because the devs are working with an outdated engine, poor coding (like the base code) or a combination of the two.
|
I know the animation engine isn't the whole system, and that problems local to the animation system aren't necessarily representative of the whole game's challenges, but consider some of the stuff BaB has told us over time about what challenges he faced with customized powers. One of the biggest hurdles he described recently was the sheer volume of FX scripts that had to be touched, and it was finally enabled when a staffer wrote a script to do the bulk of that work. Similarly, one of the long-standing arguments against certain powers changes was the sheer number of powers that would have to be modified, because every AT and mob has its own copy of the powers. (Pool powers are a known exception.) Powers are (or were) maintained in large spreadsheets and changes have been prone to copy-paste errors and missed instances.
These sorts of problems scream for automation. It sounds like the devs lack (or lacked) someone who could create tools that enabled them to work "smarter, not harder". These sorts of tools can also be created for some kinds of potential bug analysis, showing what components of a system might be affected by change. (If you change this glowie definition, what parts of the system import it and therefore might be affected?)
This particular observation isn't really meant as an indictment of the dev team. Staff who can create such tools in short timeframes aren't a dime-a-doezn. People who can make them reusable parts of a product's life cycle are valuable resources. So this is more of a statement of hope that they either have found someone or will someday who can improve the team's efficiency by giving them better tools that can automate labor-intensive, repetitive tasks. The benefits are potentially immense.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I dont see any malicious intent. Changing the map is cool, I liked the numinas change. Never really thought the old map was "right" for that encounter. I dont see the map changing by itself, but the fact that it slipped through the cracks is not evidence of evil intent. I just hope they are trying to close a few of those cracks. It is not a reflection on the programmers so much as the control system of the shop. And that will take a manager( who I have no idea) to work on.
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Pretty much this.
Funny thing is the folks in the drops testing thread aren't assigning malicious intent to the devs in that thread. Interesting how different people react to different situations. |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
OK a few things after catching up from last night....
There is no one saying malicious intent other than the self appointed dev defenders. If you go back and re read the thread without the preconceived notion that this isn't a "zomg the devs suck" thread you will see that. I don't know if you read the same thread i did but what is asked for is knowledge. Knowledge to test the right things and help put out a more polished product to live. Ummm isn't that what beta testing is for?
It's already been stated that any change in the coding can have a cascading bug effect, one not anticipated. So let people know you worked on map or AI code so they can look for it during beta testing. I am just not understanding how asking that is dev hating?
It's also stated in this thread that people in beta test what they are asked to test and don't do old content. Well there ya go if ya change something and you don't tell the people you have in beta they don't know to look for bugs. How hard would it be to test power customization while doing TF's and missions looking for an AI and map errors. This seems pretty simple to me.
So to rehash it doesn't matter how the bugs got there if they (the developers/designers) where recoding maps or AI it would have been more prudent to inform the beta testers so that they could be the resource that they are supposed to be.
Quote:
Knowing that you can't predict the entirety the result of a particular change would be the exact reason to want to test the system and the changes you make to it rigorously. The incompetence is not the programming or the change but rather the lack of using and informing the resources they have (beta testers) to do the best possible job to test the system. (i am sure Enri will correct me if i got that wrong)| Just as I can't possibly know what or how things happened in the programming, neither can you. It just seems odd that you are unwilling to NOT fault the Devs directly. Not being able to predict EVERY possible consequence of an action, does NOT equate to incompetence. |
Again i can't seem to stress this enough criticism is not bad it helps make things better if you can look at it objectively and find the valid points in it. That is what i believe this thread started out to be. A valid critique of the information sharing with beta testers, and the ability of them to test things with proper knowledge.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Quote:
I think it's you who is missing the point of the OP. You're second paragraph is exactly what he is saying. The only difference is he believes that the Devs DID know the maps were changed as it's unlikly they changed themselves. Given the map changes appear to be isolated to this one TF it seems a fair assumption. If it were a bug you would expect it to occur in more places.
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
You're still missing the point. I don't think any knew the maps were changed. So it's very difficult for testers to find such a bug.
Having been in many betas here I can tell you many folks test the new additions/changes that are noted in patch notes, etc. They don't randomly test previous content unless specifically asked by the dev team. Well, most testers anyway. |
Quote:
5) She stopped moving again once aggro had dissipated. No amount of cajoling or vet tping would make her follow the team or rescuer.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I don't remember the last time I've done a Katie TF...but are you able to teleport Katie? Please don't hurt me...my hands are soaked in the blood of Romans and Nazis.
|
No one had the recall friend power but I assume vet tp would work if recall friend would have worked. Unfortunately vet tp did nothing to Katie's Spirit.
OK, I think this thread is going past its 'Best Before' date very quickly.
Unlike my Hungarian physics professor, I'm not asking 'Vhy?', I'm asking 'How?' did those maps get changed without going through beta notification.
Since Castle gave a sufficient enough answer to someone who is not their supervisor, and the bugs have been acknowledged, all that's left here are people saying the Devs meant 'this' or 'that'.
Unless someone has more technically relevant information to add, I'm going to ask the mods to lock the thread.
Thanks to everyone who read and participated with their responses. I hope the Developers and their Managers see how important the process of reporting changes and how important the state of the game is to the community at large (well forumites anyhow), judging by their impassioned responses.
Quote:
Got to say this part cracked me up. Ever played WoW? Software is software mate and there are always bugs right after a patch, WoW is no exception to the rule. Maybe some of the bugs you pointed out could have been caught but from what I gather the process of porting over from Test to Live or more likely just the stress placed on the newly recoded servers of having so many players on at once plays a role in revealing the bugs and so there's no real way to test for them all before hand.
|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
It is highly embarrassing to try to show some new players around, especially players from a highly respected and polished MMO, just to find out that something that's been working well for years is BUSTED just because someone decided to make some hidden changes. It is NOT a good sales pitch when your presentation falls flat on its face.
|
Quote:
Yes, thank you, and did you bother to check /whereami for what maps you were actually on? Did you check if anything changed with the radar maps in the MA?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
... (← Hyperlink)
|
And there's still no information about this nebulous "meaner mobs" thing.
I did in fact see your post the first time, but there's still several unanswered questions.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
Why?
|
Originally Posted by Diggis
If it were a bug you would expect it to occur in more places.
|
Quote:
I think that if you have so many great questions could it be possible that you go and check it out yourself and report back here?
|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Yes, thank you, and did you bother to check /whereami for what maps you were actually on? Did you check if anything changed with the radar maps in the MA?
And there's still no information about this nebulous "meaner mobs" thing. I did in fact see your post the first time, but there's still several unanswered questions. |
Quote:
I was actually probably going to give the MA maps a look when I got the chance, but I'm incapable of testing the TF itself.
|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
I think that if you have so many great questions could it be possible that you go and check it out yourself and report back here?
|
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
Cool. I'd suggest posting it to the first thread that I saw noting the Hess TF bug since this one isn't dedicated to that bug alone.
|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I was actually probably going to give the MA maps a look when I got the chance, but I'm incapable of testing the TF itself.
|
Whataya know, both Radar Room 1 and Radar Room 2 give a map invalid error when you try to use them in the MA. (And in fact, their mini-maps don't display either.)
Sounds like the map files themselves got corrupted or lost somehow.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
In fact, I "bothered" to check what map we were on, and not through /whereami but through /demorecord.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Yes, thank you, and did you bother to check /whereami for what maps you were actually on? Did you check if anything changed with the radar maps in the MA?
And there's still no information about this nebulous "meaner mobs" thing. I did in fact see your post the first time, but there's still several unanswered questions. |
Without knowing what map was used pre i16, that information is irrelevant, but here we go:
Map MAPS/MISSIONS/UNIQUE/STRIGAISLE/COUNCIL_RADARROOM2.TXT
...
0 12 NEW Computer
0 12 NPC OO_Council_Computer_01
0 12 POS -6 6.75 -146
Bit busy today, so no time to read through the whole thread right now, but I saw mention of changes to Numina? Are there other missions/maps in I16 that seem to have changed without a patch note? If so, could you guys put together a list and I'll make sure it gets into the hands of the right people.
Hess TF is being fixed, and the issue with Amy in the KH TF has been logged as a bug.
Quote:
Map in last mission of Numina was changed either in i14 or i15 (while i like new map much better than old, no patch notes were issued regarding that change)
|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Bit busy today, so no time to read through the whole thread right now, but I saw mention of changes to Numina? Are there other missions/maps in I16 that seem to have changed without a patch note? If so, could you guys put together a list and I'll make sure it gets into the hands of the right people.
Hess TF is being fixed, and the issue with Amy in the KH TF has been logged as a bug. |
Quote:
The Chnage to Numina references was the final mission being a a wide 'troll' style cave rather than a blue cave, and this went in a few issues ago, not as part of I16.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Bit busy today, so no time to read through the whole thread right now, but I saw mention of changes to Numina? Are there other missions/maps in I16 that seem to have changed without a patch note? If so, could you guys put together a list and I'll make sure it gets into the hands of the right people.
Hess TF is being fixed, and the issue with Amy in the KH TF has been logged as a bug. |
To me it seemed logical, deliberate and planned. Soemthing the size of Jurassik in a blue cave was always an oddity.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
Whoa, yeah, I hope that's not a bug. We saw that on my last Numina TF and cheered. Jurassik always stuck through the ceiling, and was always in that damn 5 layer room. The troll cave was a vast improvement.
|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
The Chnage to Numina references was the final mission being a a wide 'troll' style cave rather than a blue cave, and this went in a few issues ago, not as part of I16.
To me it seemed logical, deliberate and planned. Soemthing the size of Jurassik in a blue cave was always an oddity. |
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
indeed, I hope it was intentional and I rather keep it how it is now.
|
Originally Posted by Liquid
Whoa, yeah, I hope that's not a bug. We saw that on my last Numina TF and cheered. Jurassik always stuck through the ceiling, and was always in that damn 5 layer room. The troll cave was a vast improvement.
|
Quote:
Heavens yes, the new end map for Numina is a VAST improvement over that never-to-be-sufficiently-cursed layer cake room. Anytime I'm running a mission in a blue cave map I'm always praying it isn't one of the cake room maps. That and the Council Bass-Hatchery room are my most-hated maps in the game.
|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
indeed, I hope it was intentional and I rather keep it how it is now.
|
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
Sooo agreed. I thought the change to Numina's last mish was random, but the last 4 times I've run it, it's been that nice BIG cave that makes more sense for a Giant Monster to be in. All it needs now is a big Door in the back so it's obviously Jurrasik's little den that you busted in the back door on. |
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Heavens yes, the new end map for Numina is a VAST improvement over that never-to-be-sufficiently-cursed layer cake room. Anytime I'm running a mission in a blue cave map I'm always praying it isn't one of the cake room maps. That and the Council Bass-Hatchery room are my most-hated maps in the game.
|
Also: I thought I was the only one that called that 5 level disaster "layer-cake" ... Glad I'm not the only one. It's the most annoying Blue-Cave room, followed by one I just call "the toilet bowl" ... you know, where you go up a hill that's atop a large cave, over and around above the large cave, then down and across under hill top.
Quote:
Are ya positive? |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
|
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
I know I'm biased. I work in an environment with a very high bar for software correctness. Of course, it's not a game environment, and when my team's system doesn't work right, its other people in the enterprise who come asking why. I can imagine that has a far different dynamic from an MMO shop where players get mad about bugs in game.
But just because I would love to see a higher bar doesn't mean I am trying to vilify devs individually or collectively (and I acknowledge you weren't accusing me of such specifically). I just wish the results made it look like they had a higher bar.