A Rant About i16 (undocumented changes to TFs lead to bugs...big surprise)
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2009-09-20 12:49 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Also: I thought I was the only one that called that 5 level disaster "layer-cake" ... Glad I'm not the only one. It's the most annoying Blue-Cave room, followed by one I just call "the toilet bowl" ... you know, where you go up a hill that's atop a large cave, over and around above the large cave, then down and across under hill top.
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The COT cake room has been called that since almost the beginning of the game. It's been voted the most hated room multiple times.
Yet another signature worthy negative rep from this thread I am on a roll!
A Rant About i16... 09-22-2009 05:22 PM pervert
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could you link to any of these multiple voteing polls ? i'm curious to see what other nominees there were
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Originally Posted by xen10k
The COT cake room has been called that since almost the beginning of the game. It's been voted the most hated room multiple times.
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I'd be curious also... I know which rooms make my top (bottom) ten list|
Originally Posted by Morbid Star
could you link to any of these multiple voteing polls ? i'm curious to see what other nominees there were
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COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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To be contrarian, I hate the new Numina map. It is extremely anti-climatic and boring. I can see why people who want to speed run would love the new map, its so much easier to stealth and defeat two spawns in that end room than clearing the 5-layer room.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Sooo agreed. I thought the change to Numina's last mish was random, but the last 4 times I've run it, it's been that nice BIG cave that makes more sense for a Giant Monster to be in. All it needs now is a big Door in the back so it's obviously Jurrasik's little den that you busted in the back door on.
Also: I thought I was the only one that called that 5 level disaster "layer-cake" ... Glad I'm not the only one. It's the most annoying Blue-Cave room, followed by one I just call "the toilet bowl" ... you know, where you go up a hill that's atop a large cave, over and around above the large cave, then down and across under hill top. |
I liked the 5-layer room and have many fond memories of fighting Jurassik in it.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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There is no reasonable interpretation of my post of the problems with the TF that could qualify as "vague". What you could say is that the details are qualitative. You seem to be suggesting that qualitative is automatically vague. When presented with a significant amount of qualitative information, you turn around and ask for quantitative detail with the clear implication that without it, the given description is inadequate to understand the issue.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Yes, thank you, and did you bother to check /whereami for what maps you were actually on? Did you check if anything changed with the radar maps in the MA?
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You might need that sort of detail to diagnose the problems with the TF. However, you are another player, not a dev. As such, there is no reason you personally need that kind of quantitative detail to grasp the problems with the TF. Claims that the descriptions are "vague" thus ring hollow.
Because of this, your post quoted above (especially worded as it is) comes off as an effort at misdirection, making it look as though no reasonably complete description of the issue had been given when, in fact, it had. It also comes across as a veiled attack on me or my information, suggesting that I was unreasonable not to gather better diagnostic information (despite being on the TF as a player, not a playtester).
Perhaps this was just poor communication on your part, perhaps you didn't want to admit that clear descriptions were given, or perhaps it was some veiled jab at me. Whichever it was, the problems with the TF were already enumerated and were not vague.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[quote=BackAlleyBrawler;2263803]Bit busy today, so no time to read through the whole thread right now, but I saw mention of changes to Numina? Are there other missions/maps in I16 that seem to have changed without a patch note? If so, could you guys put together a list and I'll make sure it gets into the hands of the right people.
Hess TF is being fixed, and the issue with Amy in the KH TF has been logged as a bug.[/quote]
Thanks, BaBs!
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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Just to make things clear, Amy Jonnson in the 2nd mission is not bugged, nor is the Amy's Ward power. It is Katie's Spirit, in the last mission, that needs to be looked at.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
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WOW I have to say I am proud of my server mates on this thread. I agree with you all here.
It is true that it is human nature to miss somethings, but like Pum and others have mentioned it appears that some major things were left off. (Hess TF map change)
In short,
Sloppy patch notes = Sloppy testing.
The standard should be held to a higher degree, Which I have no doubt that the devs have. However the ball was dropped in this case, and all that can be made now is to pick it up and do it better next time. We all applaud your efforts for communicating with us in this thread and making sure you get to the bottom of it.
Thanks again.
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Fight my brute
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Well, not a TF thing:|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Bit busy today, so no time to read through the whole thread right now, but I saw mention of changes to Numina? Are there other missions/maps in I16 that seem to have changed without a patch note? If so, could you guys put together a list and I'll make sure it gets into the hands of the right people.
Hess TF is being fixed, and the issue with Amy in the KH TF has been logged as a bug. |
Caltrops are completely invisible now. I teamed with some friend to fight Chimera in Maria Jenkin's Arc, and one friend and myself could not see the caltrops dropping, nor once they hit the ground. My other friend could see them, but they were green like the grass they dropped on.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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That might be something specific to Chimera's mobs. I did the Breaking Knives arc a few nights ago, and I could see the caltrops from the Knives of Artemis.|
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
Well, not a TF thing:
Caltrops are completely invisible now. I teamed with some friend to fight Chimera in Maria Jenkin's Arc, and one friend and myself could not see the caltrops dropping, nor once they hit the ground. My other friend could see them, but they were green like the grass they dropped on. |
Edit: You might want to post that here.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The last map of Numina has both rooms. You have to get past the figure eight room to get to the layer cake room.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Sooo agreed. I thought the change to Numina's last mish was random, but the last 4 times I've run it, it's been that nice BIG cave that makes more sense for a Giant Monster to be in. All it needs now is a big Door in the back so it's obviously Jurrasik's little den that you busted in the back door on.
Also: I thought I was the only one that called that 5 level disaster "layer-cake" ... Glad I'm not the only one. It's the most annoying Blue-Cave room, followed by one I just call "the toilet bowl" ... you know, where you go up a hill that's atop a large cave, over and around above the large cave, then down and across under hill top. |
That figure eight room is so evil... the continuation of the cave is an entrance overhead that is so easily overlooked.
While the new cave is easily stealthed, well, so is the layer cake one to anyone who knows the 'secret' of the figure eight room.
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To summarize:
The premise of this entire thread is completely wrong. It posited that there were undocumented changes because the Devs are mean, uncommunicative, and sloppy testers. And those undocumented changes led to bugs.
The fact is that they're simply bugs. Not intended at all. Not a result of secretiveness. Not a result of a plot to get the speed runners.
gg
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*headdesk* |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
To summarize:
The premise of this entire thread is completely wrong. It posited that there were undocumented changes because the Devs are mean, uncommunicative, and sloppy testers. And those undocumented changes led to bugs. The fact is that they're simply bugs. Not intended at all. Not a result of secretiveness. Not a result of a plot to get the speed runners. gg |
It wasn't.
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Bzzzt. Wrong. Again. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
To summarize:
The premise of this entire thread is completely wrong. It posited that there were undocumented changes because the Devs are mean, uncommunicative, and sloppy testers. And those undocumented changes led to bugs. The fact is that they're simply bugs. Not intended at all. Not a result of secretiveness. Not a result of a plot to get the speed runners. gg |
The premise of this entire thread is that are undocumented changes because someone dropped the ball in reporting said changes to the testers. Which led to untested changes breaking things that did not need fixing on live.
Any ascription of meanness on the part of the devs is wholly imagined on your part. I won't argue about uncommunicative and sloppy. Uncommunicative in the sense that when you skip/don't have/bypass a formal reporting structure, it leads to said sloppiness.
However, if you are implying that I am mean, you could be right.
Somehow you feel personally maligned that your own personal theories about what kind of people play in the manner they do are broken. Get over it, it's the interwebs.
And if you think that I was mad because it was some kind of paranoid plot to 'get speed runners', to be honest, I don't particularly mind that TFs would be changed to narrow the variance between the best and worst teams. I think that differences of 200% or more in TF times means something needs to be looked at, but done sensibly and intelligently.
It's the fact that either there is no process to fix and test things formally, or the process that has been bypassed that irks me.
As I type this for the fourth time, it looks like you seem to be forever stuck in mindset, frozen in time a la Gary Coleman or Ground Hog Day. I can repeat this for you ad nauseam. I suppose there is a reason for your handle.
gg
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umm...|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
*headdesk*
It wasn't. |
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| undocumented changes to TFs lead to bugs...big surprise |
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| As I type this for the fourth time, it looks like you seem to be forever stuck... |
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Totally agree with Pum in his original and follow up posts. Since i16, I have run Hess, Katie and a Master Cuda SF...all by pure chance. And ALL THREE are bugged. All three! I did not mind much with the first bugged Hess mission...but the second, in exactly the same map? Come on.
The katie one was also a pain. And while I am grateful at the GM in questions response time..I am not sure he really knew what he was doing. Of course, the issue may just have been even more bent that I though, in which case I apoligise to him.
As the other posters have said..these kind of changes, ie Hess, are pretty certainly on purpose..yet we didnt know about them..so could n t test them.
I come to this thread after finding one about the Bugged badge for Master of Cuda....which would have been an AWESOME issue to know about before I ran it.
I also would suspect a Dev conspiracy..yet 2 of the bugged TFs are Hero ones...so that doesnt work.
Anyway, good on you for the OP Pum, it was clear and logical.
Now, back to waiting for my MoBSF badge
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The difficulty of the figure eight room is in the map, it does not depict the overpass as being separate or the way in which the room is stacked. Other maps components do. This leads to a lot of confused folks, but this issue really is orthogonal to a stealther. If the maps were updated showing the underpass/overpass structure on all figure eight maps people would have a much easier time of it.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The last map of Numina has both rooms. You have to get past the figure eight room to get to the layer cake room.
That figure eight room is so evil... the continuation of the cave is an entrance overhead that is so easily overlooked. While the new cave is easily stealthed, well, so is the layer cake one to anyone who knows the 'secret' of the figure eight room. |
If you are stealthed properly, whether it's a figure eight or wide open space, no mob is going to see you outside of a rikti drone (or a couple of other rare situations), and since the Numina TF has only DE mobs in the last mission, you're pretty safe if you can stealth.
Additionally, the figure eight room no longer factors into the revised Numina TF map.
The biggest annoyance with the cake room is that going up and down the levels isn't so easy because it is dark, there are many small holes that you can fall into, and that it is a huge room and every instance of a defeat X in that room requires the defeat of all mobs within the layer cake room. In other words, it is a pain to deal with.
For speeders, it makes it difficult to herd or zerg the mobs, and for less experienced teams, the levels and holes makes it extremely easy to fall down a level and get separated and defeated. Simply looking at the map doesn't tell you what level of the cake your teammates are on.
The various levels and holes also make having pets problematic since they can also aggro levels above and below unintentionally. If the cake room entrance was at the lowest level instead of mid level, there would be a lot less consternation, but people would still be aggravated from time to time.
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Your summary is wrong. The premise of the thread is that there were changes in 2 different TFs. These changes made the TFs impossible to complete without GM assistance. The nature of changes suggested that they were intentional rather than bugs. The changes were unannounced during the recent closed and open beta. Since the changes were unannounced no one knew to look at them.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
To summarize:
The premise of this entire thread is completely wrong. It posited that there were undocumented changes because the Devs are mean, uncommunicative, and sloppy testers. And those undocumented changes led to bugs. The fact is that they're simply bugs. Not intended at all. Not a result of secretiveness. Not a result of a plot to get the speed runners. gg |
Your summary is so wrong that 2 developers have come into this thread and debunked your position:
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Originally Posted by Castle
I won't argue the Hess aspect; I don't know what changed there or why any more than you do. It sounds like someone dropped the ball, certainly.
However, the issue of Katie not following properly is a flat out bug. There's no way we can provide you with documentation on a bug, since by definition it shouldn't have happened, period. |
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Bit busy today, so no time to read through the whole thread right now, but I saw mention of changes to Numina? Are there other missions/maps in I16 that seem to have changed without a patch note? If so, could you guys put together a list and I'll make sure it gets into the hands of the right people.
Hess TF is being fixed, and the issue with Amy in the KH TF has been logged as a bug. |
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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Way to come back to the thread after this kind of childishness had more or less died down and fallaciously distill the topic to name calling.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
To summarize:
The premise of this entire thread is completely wrong. It posited that there were undocumented changes because the Devs are mean, uncommunicative, and sloppy testers. And those undocumented changes led to bugs. |
Epic fail at reading comprehension, and epic fail at your usual hall-monitor righteousness.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yes to this. the new map fits so much better than the cake map.
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
Map in last mission of Numina was changed either in i14 or i15 (while i like new map much better than old, no patch notes were issued regarding that change)
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Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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It could have started off noting there were obvious bugs and *asking* if they were undocumented intentional changes. But no. It wasn't. It started off in an angry tirade based on unfounded assumptions. | A Rant About i16 (undocumented changes to TFs lead to bugs...big surprise) |
Feel free to accuse me of 'hall monitoring.' I'll use that same freedom to call out those who succumbed to the uninformed nerdrage in this thread.
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In a thread titled "Rant?" Say it ain't so.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Feel free to accuse me of 'hall monitoring.' I'll use that same freedom to call out those who succumbed to the uninformed nerdrage in this thread.
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This many pages into the thread the primary "nerdrage" I perceive still manifest is the righteous indignation of someone perpetuating an argument on an internet forum. Someone whom nerdrage has apparently reduced to such intellectual impotency in that argument that they are reduced to ad homenim attacks on the opposition without even the veneer of ongoing debate. Someone no longer discussing points of relevance present in the original rant or the subsequent discussion and instead slavishly hamming how the OP contained an unprovable assumption (which also cannot be disproved).
I guess we better get some posts so we can prop the dead horse up.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It's been years, several forum purges, and a forum move since they did the voting. I'll try to find them, but don't hold your breath.
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Originally Posted by Morbid Star
could you link to any of these multiple voteing polls ? i'm curious to see what other nominees there were
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Also: I thought I was the only one that called that 5 level disaster "layer-cake" ... Glad I'm not the only one. It's the most annoying Blue-Cave room, followed by one I just call "the toilet bowl" ... you know, where you go up a hill that's atop a large cave, over and around above the large cave, then down and across under hill top.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes