City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

I16 Mission Architect XP Changes

Aliana Blue

By Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2009-08-26 15:47 in Mission Architect

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geek_Boy View Post
I just don't see a problem with people congregating here or there for whatever reason. For me, it just puts them all in one place that I can easily avoid.
Meh it isn't so much of the "So many people in AP" thing, it's the "Less people are everywhere else" thing. I don't go to AP unless i just made a new toon or i'm very very bored. Usually i'll be on one of my 50s and find teams, which many of us know that it has gotten tougher to find teams with the AE farms. Yes i know that hurting AE farms will put a lot of people back to PI farming, but i prefer that one better. The higher level zones will be re-populated again, and farmers wont be making such huge profits like AE gave.

 

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Originally Posted by Frozen_Northman View Post
So, what if stories that were successfully chosen for Dev's Choice status were set to give full XP rewards? Such stories would indicate that they had met the Dev standards for being a worthy arc, and might possibly raise incentive to create AE material that met these standards.
Then we'd have a handful of arcs, most of which were picked in issue 14 closed beta, who are "worthy" and the thousands of other "unworthy" arcs.

<sarcasm>Yeah, that will end the complaining for sure.</sarcasm>

 

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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
Then we'd have a handful of arcs, most of which were picked in issue 14 closed beta, who are "worthy" and the thousands of other "unworthy" arcs.

<sarcasm>Yeah, that will end the complaining for sure.</sarcasm>
<more sarcasm> Yes, using arcs with customs that were created 2 issues and multiple patches ago as an example is a good idea.</sarcasm>

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen_Northman View Post
Like others, I am concerned about the long-term effect the XP cuts for power customization will have. I totally support the decision to penalize XP for arcs that don't include a normal minion-lieutenant-boss spread, and I understand the potential for abuse in a system with custom group power editing.
Play most of my arcs, and you wont find the minion-lb-boss spread. I want to pick the exact moment when a baddie escalates...

Some of my arcs follow the structure:

Mission 1) All minions, one LT posing as a boss.
Mission 2) All minions, some LT appearing as patrols and/or ambushes.
Mission 3) All LT, some minions on patrol or appearing as reinforcements, one boss as... well... a boss.
Mission 4) All combined, some LT used as ambushes/honor guards, a little boss patrols, one EB or a weakened AV.
Mission 5) All LT, some minions used as constant patrols, some bosses as hard spawns/secondary objectives, mixed groups as ambushes, one AV (normally hard to beat).

One of my arcs have 15 customs, with 7 different groups. All to enable me to control where a specific critter appear and on what role.

I will probably just bundle then all and let it be. There is no space for creativity to be rewarded on this changes. I will have to rewrite everything.

Poor Gilles de Rais and his inquisition-based arc... Well... that teaches me to not use actual medieval history as inspiration...

** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************

Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.

 

Posted

As I've noted elsewhere, there's some confusion about what's really a farm. Last time I accepted an Atlas invite, I played with a team running a kill all mission on an outdoor map. The mobs didn't say or do anything. The sort of thing the people who take pride in storytelling belittle.

The creator, the leader of the team of course, had some concept going. He made robots with Valkyrie pieces added, and the mob and mission name had something to do with Baldr and Ragnarok.

The mission surely looked like a farm. It was not. The minions went around casting Fortitude, of all things, and the lieutenants were shield, and the bosses Invulnerability. Took forever to take out a spawn of these custom critters, and I left for a TF well before we found the archvillain. There was plenty of risk and not much reward fighting those things.

I think this kind of mission tends to get lumped in with genuine, abusive farms; when it's really just some guy who wants to make up a bunch of custom critters and get people to fight them. This is not an abusive arc even if it will never make Dev's Choice. People get genuine pleasure out of making custom critters and getting people to fight them. It grieves me that they will lose their audience if these changes go through as planned.


<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

No, that does not look like a farm. Anyone who would think it's a farm has never seen a real farm. What you describe sounds like a poorly designed custom critter showcase. Poor design =/= intent to min-max the system.

Farms are designed specifically to min-max the system; a farm full of captives and bosses with dialogue, optional objectives that give clues, and customs with cute descriptions is still a farm if it is specifically designed to minimize risk and time spent and maximize rewards.

I suggest, if you are going to continue your crusade, that you go find a few 52-52 missions full of Maniac Slammer bosses or custom Fire Melee lieutenants or Freak lieutenants, go in, and see what an actual farm looks like. Because right now you are just making a lot of noise, and very little sense.

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Farmers that used custom baddies are bad. Bad and inefficent. My farms in AE, barely affected by these changes. Sure, I'll have to run a few loopholes, change builds, but AE farming will be superior to any sort of "Instanced" farming, in terms of xp, except for a few, scarcely known maps, that I seriously hope I don't have to fall back on.

The only major change to the system that impacts AE XP farming for efficent and well versed farmers in any meaningful way is the elimination of "Bridging", these custom enemy nerfs are, for the most part, redundant and meaningless.

Then again, as long as the devs are busy being redundantly led in circles by the uniformed and mostly uneducated masses, farming will continue.

 

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Originally Posted by Megajoule View Post
My hope is that this isn't a long-term thing, and will be replaced with a more finely-tuned system as soon as the Devs have bought themselves some breathing room.
The removal of the Cathedral of Pain trial and base raids were a temporary change too, yet here we are...

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon View Post
Farmers that used custom baddies are bad. Bad and inefficent. My farms in AE, barely affected by these changes. Sure, I'll have to run a few loopholes, change builds, but AE farming will be superior to any sort of "Instanced" farming, in terms of xp, except for a few, scarcely known maps, that I seriously hope I don't have to fall back on.
An inefficient farm is still a farm. The intent is to maximize reward while minimizing risk and/or time spent. Success or failure is irrelevant.

Although you're right, the only custom critter farms I have run into, after the initial wave of Dual Blades customs, were all Fire Melee lieutenants. The overwhelming majority have used standard critters.

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

I think the devs are forced to atleast try to make restrictions because the players wont police themselves. You are always going to get certain players who will push it to and beyond the limits for personal gain whether its in-game rewards or outside cash rewards for game play. These players know that they are abusing the system no matter how they sugar coat it.

 

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Apologies if this has already been covered, but are ticket drops affected by this change, or is it only XP that is affected?

I don't use the MA to level, so if it's only XP that changes, I don't care. I play arcs for the sake of playing them, and for the sake of equipping my toons.

 

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Originally Posted by Optimator View Post
Apologies if this has already been covered, but are ticket drops affected by this change, or is it only XP that is affected?

I don't use the MA to level, so if it's only XP that changes, I don't care. I play arcs for the sake of playing them, and for the sake of equipping my toons.
The devs havent said anything about tickets being reduced, but don't count on me for that one completely

I am the same as you with the arcs too btw; i only play them for the fun of it. However, i cant really name a bunch of other people like us, so it could be a problem when i want my arc to be more popular. Oh well, just post in the forums and see if you can get a few views that way.

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
An inefficient farm is still a farm. The intent is to maximize reward while minimizing risk and/or time spent. Success or failure is irrelevant.

Although you're right, the only custom critter farms I have run into, after the initial wave of Dual Blades customs, were all Fire Melee lieutenants. The overwhelming majority have used standard critters.
An efficent farm in MA will get you anywhere from 2x-4x as much xp then a regular farm. Many inefficent farms are about as efficent as a nemisis farm, therefore, while still a farm, is not the devs main concern.

My main point though, is the fact that all these changes will do is further inconvience the masses and deter the lesser and less persistant farmers.

I mean, i would rather duplicate the nemisis map in AE and run it opposed to the one in grandeville simply becuase theres a BM in cappie and i can farm there.( Speaking XP wise )

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon View Post
An efficent farm in MA will get you anywhere from 2x-4x as much xp then a regular farm. Many inefficent farms are about as efficent as a nemisis farm, therefore, while still a farm, is not the devs main concern.
Yes it is a concern, since the devs have stated repeatedly that they want the AE to be used for stories, not farming. An inefficient farm still shows up in the search window, and perpetuates the impression that "AE is nothing but farms" among people who don't read these parts of the forums.

Just look at badges. The AE badges didn't give any kind of tangible reward, and the accolade they granted gives no game advantage. Yet badge farms were banned, and when the creation of badge farms, 5-star trades, and other attempts by badgers to use the AE for badging purposes got out of hand, the devs simply removed the badges, stating that the AE was not intended for this purpose.

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon View Post
An efficent farm in MA will get you anywhere from 2x-4x as much xp then a regular farm. Many inefficent farms are about as efficent as a nemisis farm, therefore, while still a farm, is not the devs main concern.

My main point though, is the fact that all these changes will do is further inconvience the masses and deter the lesser and less persistant farmers.

I mean, i would rather duplicate the nemisis map in AE and run it opposed to the one in grandeville simply becuase theres a BM in cappie and i can farm there.( Speaking XP wise )
I’m not a farmer so I don’t know what the standard for xp (Or whatever your farming for.), per hour is. I do know that I recently built a MA mission (On Test.), that included no Player created critters, and spawned a Boss at every spawn point. I built this mission in under a half hour, the spawn was one Boss and one Minion. I was able to make over a level off of this mission in just over a half hour, with very little danger to my character (Level 8 Stalker.).

I then edited the mission to remove one Boss spawn and added one Patrol. There was no change in the Boss spawn xp. I edited the mission again, and removed four more Boss spawns, and the mission now spawned Lt’s, where there were Bosses before. I now had a visible representation of "one of each" in the mission. I again tested the Boss spawns and the xp had not changed.

This tells me that the “one of each” on test does not actually work. All you have to have is the potential for one of each, which every Dev group has. I know for a fact that the Player created critter modifications on test does work.

So even the “one of each” can be bypassed on Dev created groups. This means that the modifications to the MA on test will do nothing to reduce rapid character advancement via the MA.

If the Devs truly want to limit player advancement via the MA, they are going to have to reduce the xp of all critters in the MA. This badly thought out, heavily focused Player critter nurf, will not do the trick. All it will do is reduce the number of legitimate Player created critter arcs/missions.

 

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Originally Posted by Jeuraud View Post
If the Devs truly want to limit player advancement via the MA, they are going to have to reduce the xp of all critters in the MA. This badly thought out, heavily focused Player critter nurf, will not do the trick. All it will do is reduce the number of legitimate Player created critter arcs/missions.
So will reducing all XP, though.

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Although you're right, the only custom critter farms I have run into, after the initial wave of Dual Blades customs, were all Fire Melee lieutenants. The overwhelming majority have used standard critters.
Is that true?

If so...then why the changes to custom mobs?

My one published arc has to be ramped up to "ridiculous-irritating" in order to give full xp. I think I manged to only sacrifice one of the critters on this altar ("Smoke" is just too much to ask of other players to put up with). But something tells me that my minions with Siphon Speed aren't going to be much fun for for a team either. (Stack a few of those) Sure would be nice to be able to at least pick out the one most irritating power in a set without slicing off xp. Probably not a big deal to me in the end since the odds are against anyone playing mine....much less a big team. I tried mine solo on Test and it's not bad for a Scrapper at least.


Why do I get the feeling that someone is going to figure out which powerset is least irritating to fight against and that will suddenly become the fall-back powerset if you want to build an arc with full xp?

 

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Originally Posted by JeetKuneDo View Post
If so...then why the changes to custom mobs?
I've been half wondering if there's not some trick some of the RMT goldsellers have found for creating super-easy arcs of custom-mobs only, some trick that the devs have found via data mining that they don't wish to publicize, for obvious reasons.

 

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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5 View Post
I've been half wondering if there's not some trick some of the RMT goldsellers have found for creating super-easy arcs of custom-mobs only, some trick that the devs have found via data mining that they don't wish to publicize, for obvious reasons.
If they had, I think the normal farmers would have found it too. If it was really so common as to require this drastic a solution, we'd all know about it by now.

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

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Originally Posted by magnus1 View Post
ding,ding,ding we have the right answer here!!!anything to bring people out of that dark theater(sees the little old man going back to rewind the same film playing back to back to back etc,etc,etc...)this will help this game to be what it truly is...

Question is, what game will they go play? Funny thing about social engineering this way is that people dont always do what you want them to do.

Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running

I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!

You are in a maze of twisty little passages

 

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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA View Post
Question is, what game will they go play? Funny thing about social engineering this way is that people dont always do what you want them to do.
Farmers will go back to farming the missions they were before I14, for the most part. If people are only interested in the XP, they'll probably stay in the MA. Given that tickets are still likely a better reward per time than standard drops (unless you're hunting purples) and you'll still be able to hit the 1500-ticket cap easily on a good farming arc, people won't be leaving the MA in droves unless they're disgruntled authors upset with the way custom NPC XP is being handled. As I've said before, the only thing this change is accomplishing is bringing MA rewards more in line with standard content.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

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I'm for anything that makes this game better

 

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Originally Posted by JeetKuneDo View Post
If so...then why the changes to custom mobs?
Strangest thing just happened. My leg joint just made this sudden upward motion. It was as if my leg wasn't really under my control, but rather performed an unplanned unthinking reaction to some outside stimulus.
Quote:
Why do I get the feeling that someone is going to figure out which powerset is least irritating to fight against and that will suddenly become the fall-back powerset if you want to build an arc with full xp?
Authors were already doing this pre Issue 16. Thank goodness for Regen secondary on Standard. Without that, my custom minions (and many other authors' custom minions) would have gone from "noticeably too hard" to "ZOMG TEH DEBT" a long time ago.