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I wont.
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Originally Posted by BLACKJACK
I think if you make a good mission people will play it reguardless of exp
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Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
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Yes, but the kind of people who care about that kind of thing aren't going to be looking for stories in the first place. They're looking for maniac slammer or freakshow boss spawns. Of course, those have their own kick in the teeth.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
Actually, I think the concern is that no one will ever end up playing their arcs, because maximum XP is all that most other players care about. Considering the relative observed popularity of farm arcs vs. non-farm, I cannot definitively say they are wrong about that.
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Wait--|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
There is so much in this game, so much interesting stuff, that the devs have failed to develop narratively, so much stuff that could be explored and explained, and it's not being touched by players because they're busy making lesbian hellions or clowns or whatever they think is 'interesting.'
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You don't actually believe that the people making "lesbian hellions or clowns", if denied that ability, would suddenly embark on a thoughtful exploration of the potential of the setting, do you?
I mean, really?
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Wow .. really? I didn't think our views on AE were even remotly close ... Guess I was wrong about that.
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
I've said it for the record before, even I don't want to play arcs if the XP is crap or non-existent. I don't care how good the story is, I only have so much time to play and I like to see my characters level up at a decent pace while doing so. People want good story AND good rewards. They're also getting tired of idiots who think that the two are mutually exclusive.
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Of course it matters ... It matters to you.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
The irony here is, you're saying my opinion of the change doesn't matter.
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I don't think that custom factions are interesting, or fun. I haven't seen them handled very well; they're a little way to add spice to stories, but by and large, because of the way the game handles and expresses them and because the quality of the writers who think they should create them, the stories in which they are hosted that I have played are bad. On the other hand, there are plenty of arcs I have played where individual custom enemies have been used well. These do not represent a large portion of the XP in the mission, so I doubt I'd even notice if they offered reduced XP. |
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| AE is about stories. It's not about XP. I understand that you want lots of XP to go with your stories, but I don't. |
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| And you're the one calling me arrogant? |
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others
Yes, I think that describes you perfectly.
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| You're the one threatening to quit the game over the loss of XP from custom mobs, who, again, surely can't represent the majority of the game. |
And yes, people who want xp are in the majority of the game. I would daresay that there are only a handful of people who would be content playing a level 1 forever.
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| There is so much in this game, so much interesting stuff, that the devs have failed to develop narratively, |
Hell, I couldn't even tell you what any of the TF's were about, but I ran them all (except for Dr. Q).
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| so much stuff that could be explored and explained, and it's not being touched by players because they're busy making lesbian hellions or clowns or whatever they think is 'interesting.' |
The problem with WoW is it's lacking what Co* has, and the problem with Co* is it's lacking what WoW has. I'm not talking about anything specific between these two, but how the rewards are given out. WoW has 15 paths of leveling that gives different items. Co* has 15 paths of leveling that gives the same thing over and over.
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| So, I'm arrogant for basing my expectations of a mechanic upon what has been done with it? I'm arrogant for not thinking your opinion of story is such a big deal if you're willing to toss that aside in the name of an XP threshold? Arrogance is somehow connected to having an opinion? |
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| Perhaps there needs to be a remedial writing course for the AE forum regulars. They can learn the definition of words like sarcasm, and arrogance, and opinion. |
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They agree in that I expect a critter who is tougher than a stock critter should certainly not be giving LESS reward. Standard is definitely not worth only 75% and a Hard foe who has access to powers like Rage should definitely be worth more than 100%. An Extreme foe with mag 10-16 mezz protection is certainly not worth only 100% either.
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Originally Posted by Folonius
Wow .. really? I didn't think our views on AE were even remotly close ... Guess I was wrong about that.
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How 'bout I refresh your memory.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
The irony here is, you're saying my opinion of the change doesn't matter.
So, I'm arrogant for basing my expectations of a mechanic upon what has been done with it? I'm arrogant for not thinking your opinion of story is such a big deal if you're willing to toss that aside in the name of an XP threshold? Arrogance is somehow connected to having an opinion? |
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Your arbitary threshold of 'acceptable' XP earning does not have any impact on story. Indeed, your willingness to throw story aside in favour of XP highlights and accentuates the worth of your opinion on matters of story.
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I'm talking about your review thread; your desire for an arbitary XP threshold casts that same thread in a light that devalues your opinion on arcs from where I sit. This would be like if you had voiced the idea that anything green automatically gets -*s from you, since I would therefore know that since I do not share this perspective, your opinion diverges from mine and your reviews are therefore less useful.
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Hope springs eternal. |
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
Wait--
You don't actually believe that the people making "lesbian hellions or clowns", if denied that ability, would suddenly embark on a thoughtful exploration of the potential of the setting, do you? I mean, really? |
Right now, in the AE, there's a very large amount of signal:noise going on. The way the tools are set up, the ease of use one gets out of the system means that any idiot can make an arc. The problem is, any idiot can make an arc, and for the most part, they're not making good ones.
Anything that discourages people who do not view writing and story as the important elements of an arc's existence is in my opinion, a good thing. If people don't want to farm the AE, if people don't want to make paper arcs to show off their 'custom faction,' etcetera, then what's left is more likely to be stuff that suits my tastes.
Likely? I dunno, but hey, it's my reaction to the changes.
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There's almost a "go with the flow" problem there. I'm new and usually attempt to read the mission text while traveling but I keep my mouth shut so I don't "hurt" the team by slowing the team in a TF. One of many reasons why I sometimes dislike teaming with people who have already run a SF numerous times.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
I've never been on a team in the last 3 and a half years where someone said "Slow down, I'm reading this mission."
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I'd urge the Devs to actually run a few radios and then compare them to several MA arcs with customs. Most MA arcs are going to be lightly harder by sheer virtue of enemy design. The act of adding all the customized farming options to I16 should be enough to curb farming in the MA since farmers will be drifting back out to the zones.
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I hate to be cynical, but with the exception of a few specific people, I really don't think AE got tested that much in closed beta. Most people were too concerned with the Power Spectrum and Power Farming portions of I16 to care about the MA.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Bugs from i15, such as some maps having Front, Middle and Back spawn points not working properly, boss and rescue points being switched on the minimap, and captives auto-failing timed missions still haven't been fixed. Must get the new shiny out there for the ADD generation.
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This is a game, there is much more to a story arc than just story. You appear to have much more in common with Venture than you think: you both view story arcs as fanfiction rather than a game module. Story should not compromise gameplay and gameplay should not compromise the story either.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Anything that discourages people who do not view writing and story as the important elements of an arc's existence is in my opinion, a good thing. If people don't want to farm the AE, if people don't want to make paper arcs to show off their 'custom faction,' etcetera, then what's left is more likely to be stuff that suits my tastes.
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Maybe you two will get your wish and AE will become a ghost town where you can sit around and be smug at each other.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
I'm talking about your review thread; your desire for an arbitary XP threshold casts that same thread in a light that devalues your opinion on arcs from where I sit. This would be like if you had voiced the idea that anything green automatically gets -*s from you, since I would therefore know that since I do not share this perspective, your opinion diverges from mine and your reviews are therefore less useful.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
I hate to be cynical, but with the exception of a few specific people, I really don't think AE got tested that much in closed beta. Most people were too concerned with the Power Spectrum and Power Farming portions of I16 to care about the MA.
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they are so worried about farmers and bending for the LOUD minority on the forums that AE is slowly going to be hacked to death...
Do you really want a system that took up one FULL issue and half of another one to go mostly un-used?
cuz thats whats gonna happen...
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
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I realize it's probably futile replying to any of your posts. But ---|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
There is so much in this game, so much interesting stuff, that the devs have failed to develop narratively, so much stuff that could be explored and explained, and it's not being touched by players because they're busy making lesbian hellions or clowns or whatever they think is 'interesting.'
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The canon lore of the game is not extremely rich or fascinating, at least to me. It can be summed up pretty much as:
The Rikti are bad guys, out to conquer the world.
Nemesis and his army are bad guys, out to conquer the world.
Arachnos are bad guys, out to conquer the world....
I see a pattern developing here.
Second: the MA tools are limited because the game itself is limited. Even dev content missions, that are built with tools somewhat more sophisticated than MA missions, never have dialogue trees that affect their outcome. I would love to have that, to use it for storytelling. It isn't in the game to begin with.
What current content, MA and official, offers is combat, combat, and more combat. This is one reason why custom characters are "interesting". They offer one of the few ways the engine has to surprise the player, to create a puzzle by offering a tactical challenge. Before the farms took over, MA was initially filled with missions full of custom characters that were often overwhelmingly difficult, multiple custom archvillains in every spawn. People realized that such fun had its limits.
FWIW, the missions I made always used custom characters in the service of stories, or at least concept. My tastes and interests in storytelling probably differ strongly from yours or Venture's. I am more interested in surrealist comedy, social commentary, and evocation of settings than I am in exploring details of the history of the Circle of Thorns. If Statesman appears in my missions, he will be a buffoon. (And the canon invites treating him that way, IMO.) But even my "lesbian hellion" mission at least touched on CoT canon lore. And it is simply arrogant to elevate personal tastes into the way things "should" be done.
The real problem here is that penalizing custom critters in XP focuses on the wrong target. It is currently not possible to make a custom critter that's really a pushover. The most recent test patch seems to indicate that it's dawning on the devs that the real problem was in the way they designed certain of their mobs. Right now we can't make custom critters with the same flaws that led to exploits. You can try to powerlevel on maps full of custom bosses, sure; but expect to die quite a bit.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Here's my thing...
If XP were removed from MA, would I still use it? Sure.
However, that said, I think it's important to also note how I'd use it and how often.
See, I like to play this game. That involves building my characters. And building my characters includes gaining XP and leveling.
As it is, I already spend a lot of my game time not doing that. I roleplay. I socialize. I DJ. I mess with the market. I build bases. I go after badges. I make arcs in MA. And I still play my 50s.
So, when I actually do set out to advance my characters... I want experience for that. I don't think that's outta line.
Right now, when I want to advance a character, I play regular content almost exclusively. The only time I incorporate AE into the routine, is when there's an old and tired stretch of RC I just really want to avoid--tends to be during the low levels--or when I just have a pronounced desire to do something different.
I'd love to spend more of that time in AE, because I love the stories. I have a strong preference for running through content over anything else. I have a low tolerance for radio missions, and I don't PL. I am a "story player" through and through.
But I have limited windows of opportunity in which to play. So, when I do, I want the biggest bang for my temporal buck. At present, that means avoiding AE.
With these changes, sadly, it means I'll be avoiding it even more. Bigger XP hit and fewer new and interesting opponents to face dampens my interest. If I'm going to go up against stock opponents, I might as well get mission bonuses, arc bonuses, merits, and patrol XP for doing so. Travel time just ain't that big a deal (especially redside).
And I'll be even less motivated to make arcs for public consumption. Part of the draw for me is creating new characters and enemy groups, as well as embellishing existing ones. If, because of that, people are going to avoid playing my arcs (and, under this XP scaling, I think they will), well, what's the point of publishing?
For the record, I do consider writing and story to be among the important elements of an arc. However, I also include atmosphere, novelty, and gameplay in those elements.
Because I consider all of those things important, is AE really improved somehow if I stop publishing? Really?
Anyway, I think the proposed XP changes to custom critters compromises those last three elements.
This is a visual medium. As architects, our ability to "fine tune" the atmosphere of an arc experience is limited almost entirely to the critters we can create for it. Especially considering that a lot of the more visually striking maps are 1. special and unique (so overuse diminishes their impact) and 2. widely considered annoying for gameplay (I'm looking at you, asylum map!).
There is also novelty in facing a group that is visually fresh and is using a combination of powers you've not run into before. That can also spice up gameplay. Some of the most fun I've had lately has been when I was facing a well designed custom group that really challenged me.
These XP scaling changes, if implemented as they currently stand, will, I believe, homogenize MA. There will be less creativity, not more. Less atmosphere in arcs, less novelty, less gameplay challenge. Fewer people will want to play arcs, so fewer people will want to make them. Fewer people making them will mean less people going to AE to play them. In short, a downward spiral. So, in the end, less story as well.
Given the stated goal, I think this is a bad idea. Even if a few people might prefer it this way.
So... I will still use MA, but it will be an extremely limited use. I'll create arcs only for my SGs--where XP really doesn't matter--and explore AE only when I don't mind not getting XP... which, for the aforementioned reasons, will be very rare.
This, from a player who loves story. Make of that what you will, but I don't think it bodes well.
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Not so, you could always do something to subvert my opinion of you. Unfortunately, you did not, as your deliberately incorrect summary of three major enemy groups could hold up as an example.| I realize it's probably futile replying to any of your posts. But --- |
If your custom characters are there to serve the story, that they yield less XP should not matter - they are story edifices primarily. It does clearly matter to you, to the point of throwing public tantrums and demanding that you can back out of a completely consensual financial transaction that is unrelated to this event. This does not show well of your character, of your work, or of how you would use those tools. That you are discouraged from using the system seems to me a good thing.
Tertiary to this... you made a lesbian hellion arc? Seriously? I was making a joke about Hearts on Fire, which is written by a friend of mine, about a lesbian hellion.
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This is exactly why story writers need to send a clear, united, collective message that the custom critter XP nerf is not something we are willing to accept. |
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
These XP scaling changes, if implemented as they currently stand, will, I believe, homogenize MA. There will be less creativity, not more. Less atmosphere in arcs, less novelty, less gameplay challenge. Fewer people will want to play arcs, so fewer people will want to make them. Fewer people making them will mean less people going to AE to play them. In short, a downward spiral. So, in the end, less story as well.
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After all, we already control the means of production.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Just as a point of interest, I have been (and it's happened quite a few times since MA's introduction). I've even been the one to say it, on occasion.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
I've never been on a team in the last 3 and a half years where someone said "Slow down, I'm reading this mission."
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But yah, I'm certainly not even remotely typical in that regard.
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I did --- in fact, over the course of things, I have made two; the first one was pulled. I also made a Jerk Hacker arc, for that matter. I don't recommend that you play either of them; they probably aren't your cup of tea anyways, and knowing that I wrote them is unlikely to help you enjoy them. |
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Tertiary to this... you made a lesbian hellion arc? Seriously? I was making a joke about Hearts on Fire, which is written by a friend of mine, about a lesbian hellion.
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Custom characters are in fact integral to the stories told in both of them, and they do have at least rudimentary plots - Lesbian Hellion Liberation at least featured a plot twist as well as satire, though Jerk Hackers! was mostly a surrealistic scenario.
I have played Hearts on Fire. I liked it.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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That they yield less XP may not matter to the author. It might not matter to a minority segment of players.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
If your custom characters are there to serve the story, that they yield less XP should not matter - they are story edifices primarily.
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But--and this is where the trouble starts--I think it's safe to say it will matter to the vast majority of players.
And that's players, not readers. 'Cuz the context is, after all, a game. An arc is not comprised solely of story content. There's gameplay as well. The target audience is going to play through the work. It's an interactive experience, not a passive one. And if it's a team experience on top of that, in all likelihood most of the participants won't be reading at all. Their enjoyment of the arc is going to come primarily from the gameplay it provides.
So I think, for most people, gameplay is pretty important. And being rewarded for that play is part of the game. My guess is, if the rewards promise to be significantly subpar, people likely won't play an arc. Thus, out go the custom critters. But then, if the gameplay is almost identical to regular content, most everyone will probably go play RC anyway, because the rewards are better (and this is without even factoring in AE's upcoming competition, in the form of new RC).
So, as architects, if this is how it all goes, who the heck would we be creating for? Who would be left? A tiny minority of story-focused solo players?
Seems to me the goal is for MA to be more inclusive and more widely utilized than that.
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Actually, while I was not in Closed Beta, the new Betrayal options seem to be mildly buggy in the editor. While they betray properly, the editor throws out all sorts of "does not compute" if you try to select some betrayal settings. Also, it seems like some mini-map problems have been fixed (X and O are now labeled properly it seems) while others like actual coloration still seem off. Escort/Ally damage text seems to work fine.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
You're right, the AE buildings were effectively empty for most of closed beta. Most of Issue 16 is the Power Spectrum and the SRSLY/4XP system. Aside from a few UI enhancements, AE didn't get anything worth testing until this XP nerfing appeared in the last week of closed beta.
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Now that I got to report a few (somewhat nitpicky) non-MA related bugs, I am soley focusing on testing things like maps and this new betrayal function in the MA. I urge every writer here to do the same while I16 is still in beta. Did we ever get together a full list of obviously buggy maps in the MA?
Edit: Also, we need a list of "reasonable" enemy outfits that don't accept outfit customizations.
I believe the use of the terms "minority" and "majority" maybe be a little misleading. During gameplay there is more response from the "minority" side than there maybe in the forums. So where we may still be the "minority" , in gameplay we may be alot closer than what comes out in the forums.
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I'm sure people care what you think of them.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Not so, you could always do something to subvert my opinion of you. Unfortunately, you did not, as your deliberately incorrect summary of three major enemy groups could hold up as an example.
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If this discussion interests you, go to the test server and play my fifteen minute masterpiece:
Welcome To the Future - #225892
and let 'em know what you think.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City