Notes on new team difficulty settings
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-08-26 15:02 in The Market and Inventions
Blah, Herostats doesn't seem to be working for me, it says offline, then goes online, then right back off. I guess I'll have to do it the old fashion way.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Quote:
That's awesome! Thank you :-)|
Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
If you need some help collecting data, I can offer farmers on both sides, quite a few different maps. I'm Not quite sure what exactly you need, so if you would post it here, PM it to me or contact me IG i would happily help gather some data.
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The things to make sure you record are:
- exact number of minions, lts and bosses defeated.
- exact number of Pool A recipe and salvage drops.
- map.
- difficulty setting.
- team size setting.
- AT.
- mission conditions (e.g. normal mission map, Ouroboros, exemplared).
DropStats (www.glasspaw.com/dropstats) will tally up the defeats and drops from the ingame chat log, saving a lot of time.
If you have a particular theory you want to test, it takes ~2000 minion-equivalent defeats to get a statistically significant result for any one set of conditions. (Or rather, this will get a confidence interval narrow enough to distinguish between the old and 'new' results as established so far.) The most important thing, though, is to report ALL runs, whether the rate seems high, low, whatever. Selective reporting will destroy the validity of the data gathered.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
You could also record normal Enhancement drops by the way. I have not get any of these either during my missions yesterday.
Actually, i got one Enh but for completing story arc. No enemies gave me any ( calculate 6 door missions set for 1 player where i killed them all, dunno how many enemies all that totals ).
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Quote:
I will try that program later since Herostats is acting flaky on me.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
That's awesome! Thank you :-)
The things to make sure you record are: - exact number of minions, lts and bosses defeated. - exact number of Pool A recipe and salvage drops. - map. - difficulty setting. - team size setting. - AT. - mission conditions (e.g. normal mission map, Ouroboros, exemplared). DropStats (www.glasspaw.com/dropstats) will tally up the defeats and drops from the ingame chat log, saving a lot of time. If you have a particular theory you want to test, it takes ~2000 minion-equivalent defeats to get a statistically significant result for any one set of conditions. (Or rather, this will get a confidence interval narrow enough to distinguish between the old and 'new' results as established so far.) The most important thing, though, is to report ALL runs, whether the rate seems high, low, whatever. Selective reporting will destroy the validity of the data gathered. |
Using the old pencil and paper method:
2 Scanner missions
+0 (x8 Players) Boss but No AVs
26 salvage
9 recipes (lvl 50)
1 End reduction
1 Titanium Coating
1 Range
2 Recharge Reduction
3 Resist Damage
1 Sleep
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
This is going to kill the market unless they patch this. Especially villside. Has anyone heard from Synapse on this?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
From Avatea, french board (approximative translation)
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| The team in charge studied this issue as soon as they got the firsts reports, but they haven't been able to find change nor error. This doesn't mean we don't do anything, it just means that we still have to find the cause of the problem |
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Great to see.
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Originally Posted by Beber
From Avatea, french board (approximative translation)
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
That's a great list. The only thing I would add is that the /whereami command allows you to know precisely *which* map you're on, if we feel the need to record that as well. For instance, the "Retrieve Void Hunter Rifles for Abyss" mission I used for a lot of my testing is on one Council warehouse map in the version I had on Live, but one of a couple of different Council warehouse maps thru Ouroboros. If we think map might be a culprit, being precise on which map may be useful.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
That's awesome! Thank you :-)
The things to make sure you record are: - exact number of minions, lts and bosses defeated. - exact number of Pool A recipe and salvage drops. - map. - difficulty setting. - team size setting. - AT. - mission conditions (e.g. normal mission map, Ouroboros, exemplared). |
I've gotten somewhat sloppy on some of this, I'll admit. I think it frustration at hearing nothing for so long led me to just want to keep collecting data points to show that there's really something going on.
A final note from my end - all my testing leads me to believe that there is nothing wrong with salvage drop rates. Continuing to track them is fine, but my tests have all showed salvage rates easily within margin of error for whatever sample size I collected, barring perhaps the smallest.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
I didn't feel like reading 12 pages of this thread, but has anyone tried the old method of using fillers to see if the drop rates are different for soloists who use fillers over using the new mission settings?
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I concur here. I see no problem with salvage drop right now. It actually is the only thing with inspirations that seem to drop consistently on live. Recipe and Enhancement drop need to be looked at.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
That's a great list. The only thing I would add is that the /whereami command allows you to know precisely *which* map you're on, if we feel the need to record that as well. For instance, the "Retrieve Void Hunter Rifles for Abyss" mission I used for a lot of my testing is on one Council warehouse map in the version I had on Live, but one of a couple of different Council warehouse maps thru Ouroboros. If we think map might be a culprit, being precise on which map may be useful.
I've gotten somewhat sloppy on some of this, I'll admit. I think it frustration at hearing nothing for so long led me to just want to keep collecting data points to show that there's really something going on. A final note from my end - all my testing leads me to believe that there is nothing wrong with salvage drop rates. Continuing to track them is fine, but my tests have all showed salvage rates easily within margin of error for whatever sample size I collected, barring perhaps the smallest. |
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Quote:
I fail to see how it would give any useful results. As i said above, even playing alone on a map set for 1 single person is showing awful drop rate compared to what it was pre-I16.|
Originally Posted by ronkarr
I didn't feel like reading 12 pages of this thread, but has anyone tried the old method of using fillers to see if the drop rates are different for soloists who use fillers over using the new mission settings?
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My take is that if 1 playing at x1 is bad, odds are that 2 players playing at x2 will also be bad and etc.
Edit: I doubt the issue is that drops get generated and awarded to "ghost players" since one single player not on a team and killing stuff in the streets is definitely getting less drops than before I16. On test server, i was alone killing level 50 stuff in Portal Court in P.I. and i only got 1 level 50 common recipe. It was pathetic.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Quote:
To some degree, yes. I used my own fillers (3boxed) on Test and experienced a drop rate far below any expected variance.
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Originally Posted by ronkarr
I didn't feel like reading 12 pages of this thread, but has anyone tried the old method of using fillers to see if the drop rates are different for soloists who use fillers over using the new mission settings?
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Repeat Offenders
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Agreed. The difficulty settings may or may not be having an effect, but it's not as simple as "You're getting 1/8 if you're set for 8, and the other 7 disappear into the aether". If that were the case, drop rates would consistently be 1/8 of what they're supposed to be. At my worst, I only end up at around 1/4, and most folks who have trouble seem to be in the 50-70% range.|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
Edit: I doubt the issue is that drops get generated and awarded to "ghost players"
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Random thought: What character-level settings changed by default when I16 went live? One is that everyone got dropped back down to the base difficulty. Could that have had an effect like what we're seeing, where some people are just fine on drops based on where they were pre-release, while others are not? How are drops on characters created after I16 went live?
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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For myself, all my characters on live pre-I16 were set on Heroic/Villainous difficulty ( i never touch that thing, i join team when i want harder stuff... ) and i changed nothing since then. |
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Agreed. The difficulty settings may or may not be having an effect, but it's not as simple as "You're getting 1/8 if you're set for 8, and the other 7 disappear into the aether". If that were the case, drop rates would consistently be 1/8 of what they're supposed to be. At my worst, I only end up at around 1/4, and most folks who have trouble seem to be in the 50-70% range.
Random thought: What character-level settings changed by default when I16 went live? One is that everyone got dropped back down to the base difficulty. Could that have had an effect like what we're seeing, where some people are just fine on drops based on where they were pre-release, while others are not? How are drops on characters created after I16 went live? |
I have not created new characters since I16. And if drops stays like that, i doubt i will, game has become so zzz... Feels like CoH Issue2 but without enhancement drop haha
Starting to miss all my level 50 Training and DOs that were filling my tray before. At least i was getting something. Ok.. To be fair i am getting decent salvage drop but thats all, really. Thats not good enough.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Here's an interesting chain of thought.
When the demon ship map was bugged, it was using a static string of numbers, rather than a random one. That made it possible to manipulate it. At the time, SG-mode could drop base salvage, so by shifting in and out of SG mode, you could manipulate which numbers were rolled for what values.
The interesting part is that the same number string was used for salvage, inspirations, enhancements, recipe, and base salvage. Now, if what we're seeing is that salvage and inspirations are dropping normally, but enhancements and recipes are not, then I see 2 possibilities.
1: The drop rate for recipes was changed. Synapse has said that this isn't the case, and I imagine it wouldn't be very hard to check, although the fact that this bug appeared at the same time as drop rates in AE were tweaked means its not outside the realm of possibility. If the "reduced rewards" code is being called somewhere in the non-AE coding, it could lead to reductions in rewards. (don't custom critters now reward 75% base XP?)
2: The new difficulty slider is causing trouble with the way drops are assigned after they're rolled, giving some drops to non-existent teammates. This is why we need to check the drop rates of real teammates vs. virtual ones, and also test them on very low (+0/x1) difficulty settings.
I ran papers all morning on +0x1, and started noticing certain patterns. Recipe/enhancement drops almost always came in pairs for me: if I went a while without either, then got one, the very next spawn was likely to drop one as well. Often, this was the first 2 spawns of a map, although it did happen at other times. Nowhere near enough to call it a real pattern, but enough to make me take notice. I suggest that in addition to counting drops, watch for patterns of drops, especially patches where you get several recipes or enhancements in a short amount of time. I have no idea WHY this would happen, unless the RNG was well and truly broken, though.
My results for the morning. Difficulty was +0/x1 the whole way through
672 rewarding mobs defeated
13 bosses and elite bosses
45 lieutenants
605 minions
6 underlings (XP only)
3 rewarding mobs of unknown rank
Archon Belaggi (1)
Archon Leery (1)
Archon Romano (1)
0 pets and 6 greys
696 inf/debt rewards
1474404 inf
22283 prestige
24 vanguard merits
13 Pool A recipes (Mob Defeats) from 743 minion equivalents (1.75%)
2 uncommon and rare recipes
Hecatomb : Dam (Superior) (Recipe)
Undermined Defenses: Defense Debuff/Endurance Reduction (Recipe)
11 common recipes
1 Pool B recipes (Mission Complete)
Performance Shifter : End Mod/Rech/Acc (Recipe)
58 salvage from 714 minion equivalents (8.11%)
2 rare
6 uncommon
50 common
9 single origin enhancements
220 inspirations (1 tier 3, 68 tier 2, 151 tier 1, 0 special)
Also of note: 24 missions, 1 Pool B recipe? These were about 18 papers and 6 Borea missions.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
Servers just went down for some maintanence...possibly fixing the issue now?
Global: @NR
POHSYB: We've been in this meeting for six hours. Can I go back to my box?
BLUE STEEL: No.
Pohsyb sighs.
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I run solo too, and I've at least felt like Pool A drops have been down for a couple of issues (almost as many Pool B as Pool A, but that's likely just perception). The prospects of less...that's not very good.
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
I disagree here.
Perhaps you do not very often play solo at simply x1 difficulty but i actually do most of the time and i swear that drops are seriously borked even at that level. Like i said above, you do not even need to be a "hardcore farmer" to notice that drops have changed since I16 and this is where i think the new "drop rate" hurts the most. Players who already were seldomly getting stuff are getting even less now ( and this is where im gonna start crying... *sob*). |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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I also noticed this morning that recipe drops came almost in pairs. Herostats still toggles between online and offline for me so I can't really tell how many badguys I defeat.
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Originally Posted by Lakanna
Here's an interesting chain of thought.
When the demon ship map was bugged, it was using a static string of numbers, rather than a random one. That made it possible to manipulate it. At the time, SG-mode could drop base salvage, so by shifting in and out of SG mode, you could manipulate which numbers were rolled for what values. The interesting part is that the same number string was used for salvage, inspirations, enhancements, recipe, and base salvage. Now, if what we're seeing is that salvage and inspirations are dropping normally, but enhancements and recipes are not, then I see 2 possibilities. 1: The drop rate for recipes was changed. Synapse has said that this isn't the case, and I imagine it wouldn't be very hard to check, although the fact that this bug appeared at the same time as drop rates in AE were tweaked means its not outside the realm of possibility. If the "reduced rewards" code is being called somewhere in the non-AE coding, it could lead to reductions in rewards. (don't custom critters now reward 75% base XP?) 2: The new difficulty slider is causing trouble with the way drops are assigned after they're rolled, giving some drops to non-existent teammates. This is why we need to check the drop rates of real teammates vs. virtual ones, and also test them on very low (+0/x1) difficulty settings. I ran papers all morning on +0x1, and started noticing certain patterns. Recipe/enhancement drops almost always came in pairs for me: if I went a while without either, then got one, the very next spawn was likely to drop one as well. Often, this was the first 2 spawns of a map, although it did happen at other times. Nowhere near enough to call it a real pattern, but enough to make me take notice. I suggest that in addition to counting drops, watch for patterns of drops, especially patches where you get several recipes or enhancements in a short amount of time. I have no idea WHY this would happen, unless the RNG was well and truly broken, though. My results for the morning. Difficulty was +0/x1 the whole way through 672 rewarding mobs defeated 13 bosses and elite bosses 45 lieutenants 605 minions 6 underlings (XP only) 3 rewarding mobs of unknown rank Archon Belaggi (1) Archon Leery (1) Archon Romano (1) 0 pets and 6 greys 696 inf/debt rewards 1474404 inf 22283 prestige 24 vanguard merits 13 Pool A recipes (Mob Defeats) from 743 minion equivalents (1.75%) 2 uncommon and rare recipes Hecatomb : Dam (Superior) (Recipe) Undermined Defenses: Defense Debuff/Endurance Reduction (Recipe) 11 common recipes 1 Pool B recipes (Mission Complete) Performance Shifter : End Mod/Rech/Acc (Recipe) 58 salvage from 714 minion equivalents (8.11%) 2 rare 6 uncommon 50 common 9 single origin enhancements 220 inspirations (1 tier 3, 68 tier 2, 151 tier 1, 0 special) Also of note: 24 missions, 1 Pool B recipe? These were about 18 papers and 6 Borea missions. |
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Try going into Data > Select Instance and force it to your game instance. I haven't had the online offline issue, that I am aware of, but I have had it stop recording most data (still recorded xp, inf, and debt though) and doing the above fixed that.
Not the most official data but running last night the Stephanie Peebles Arc in Striga on my Elec/SD at level 19 through 22. Bosses were enabled but seldom showed up.
Tommy One Eye Mission : -1 Level +4 Heroes
32 Salvage limit filled 3/4 the way through.
9 recipes
Defeat all council Agents : -1 +5
32 Salvage Limit filled
11 recipes (one being a costume piece)
Defeat Heracles and his men : -1 +6
32 Salvage Limit filled at about the half way mark.
10 recipes
Didn't track inspirations but despite burning them like crazy would almost always end a fight filled back up.
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An extension of that thought, could certain popular farm maps be set to a poor seed (by design or by accident)?|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
Here's an interesting chain of thought.
When the demon ship map was bugged, it was using a static string of numbers, rather than a random one. That made it possible to manipulate it. At the time, SG-mode could drop base salvage, so by shifting in and out of SG mode, you could manipulate which numbers were rolled for what values. |
Check drop rates on say an regular arc series, and then a repeated farm map.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
This thought had occurred to me, but I won't have time to check it out until tomorrow.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
An extension of that thought, could certain popular farm maps be set to a poor seed (by design or by accident)?
Check drop rates on say an regular arc series, and then a repeated farm map. |
However, doesn't this seem like a lot of trouble to code into the game?
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
Huh, I too noticed the pairs phenomenon. odd
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Yes it does and no in all honestly I doubt the Devs would do that deliberately. A bug is much more likely, but a bug with the RNG tied to specific maps has been seen before.
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Originally Posted by Defenestrator
This thought had occurred to me, but I won't have time to check it out until tomorrow.
However, doesn't this seem like a lot of trouble to code into the game? |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Perhaps you do not very often play solo at simply x1 difficulty but i actually do most of the time and i swear that drops are seriously borked even at that level.
Like i said above, you do not even need to be a "hardcore farmer" to notice that drops have changed since I16 and this is where i think the new "drop rate" hurts the most. Players who already were seldomly getting stuff are getting even less now ( and this is where im gonna start crying... *sob*).
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire